Ben McLemore: Kings fans still confident he'll be a star?

enderwilson · Post #21 » by **enderwilson** » Thu Sep 4, 2014 1:33 pm

When you respond to my post with, "Watch more basketball" then you've put me in the position to justify my argument against your interpretation. My original post addresses the question of the thread (correction btw, its about our 'confidence' on whether Ben will be a 'star'). This discussion has gone off the rails because I guess I didn't describe my position clearly.

I'm not sold on Ben, but I'm not giving up on him either mainly because he has raw potential. As a result, I'm giving him the same leeway I've given other players. That's the crux of my argument. It's not about fit. It's not even about Tyreke. He's just used in context to discuss how I intend to treat Ben. (My feelings about Reke's tenure in Sac are stated on the related thread if you want to continue talking about him there.) I 100% agree that fit matters. It's even a point I argued with BigCat ad nauseam during the season. My point with Ben is with how we should evaluate individual players. At some point you need to look at them both within a context (fit), AND as an individual, and argue their strengths and weaknesses in both. Time is necessary to do this. I've given an arbitrary time frame of three years because this is how long it took for me to arrive at my opinion of Tyreke as a player. I'm applying the same method to Ben. By then we should have an idea of the direction he is growing in as a player.

Darren_Errman · Post #22 » by **Darren_Errman** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:57 am

He will be a career high 30s % 3pt shooter and average defender. Those are realistic for him but he needs to improve to get there. Needs work on both ends.

Bball IQ right now is low and needs to improve. He doesn't know how to use his athleticism. Easily loses confidence. Has tools to be good defender but right now doesn't know how to play defense.

Quite the project but he has a lot of tools to succeed. All in all, nobody knows. He is truly one big question mark.

Kings2013 · Post #23 » by **Kings2013** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:40 pm

The major question heading forward is how much rope the kid will be given to materialize. Lot of Kings fans have differing views for different reasons

aad · Post #24 » by **aad** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:41 pm

KCP would have been a better pick

Kings2013 · Post #25 » by **Kings2013** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:19 pm

aad wrote:KCP would have been a better pick

I'd respect the opinion but coming from a Pistons fan it seems homerism/trolling

aad · Post #26 » by **aad** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:59 pm

Kings2013 wrote:
aad wrote:KCP would have been a better pick

I'd respect the opinion but coming from a Pistons fan it seems homerism/trolling

I wasnt trolling sorry if it came off like that Im just mad that you guys got b mac I really wanted my pistons to land him im really high on him and think hs gonna be a great sg

PerkinsFor3 · Post #27 » by **PerkinsFor3** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:50 am

I really really wanted him to succeed, and I had pegged him really high on mock drafts, but signs arent positive so far. I'm rooting for him though... his shot is a thing of beauty. Also if lower 'bball iq' guys JR Smith, Gerald Green and Nick Young all can become borderline starters with pretty nice NBA careers, why wouldn't Ben be able to do so? I, for one, enjoy watching him shoot those jumpeers. Even if they miss. A thing of beauty, and if all else fails, he'll still be among the guys with best pure shooting form in the league.

SacKingZZZ · Post #28 » by **SacKingZZZ** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:07 am

I'm still not ready to count him out, he came in the season last year with no expectations of even being able to handle the ball at all from me and to my surprise he improved 10 fold from summer league to training camp. He still wasn't great at it but anyone that shows the ability to improve that quickly deserves a shot.

Website · Post #29 » by **Nicky Nix Nook** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:01 am

loot wrote:I really really wanted him to succeed, and I had pegged him really high on mock drafts, but signs arent positive so far. I'm rooting for him though... his shot is a thing of beauty. Also if lower 'bball iq' guys JR Smith, Gerald Green and Nick Young all can become borderline starters with pretty nice NBA careers, why wouldn't Ben be able to do so? I, for one, enjoy watching him shoot those jumpeers. Even if they miss. A thing of beauty, and if all else fails, he'll still be among the guys with best pure shooting form in the league.

It's kinda like if two ugly guys walk into a bar, the delusional, confident one will still likely land a chick while the shy, introverted one will go home alone.

But I'm not saying Ben can't still get laid.

Cruel_Ruin · Post #30 » by **Cruel_Ruin** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:53 pm

People are way too early giving up on Ben's career. I don't know if he'll ever be a star, but he'll definitely be a productive player in his own right.

Some of the people looking to dump him off ought to go check out Peja's rookie year stats and compare them with Ben's. Then get back to me.

Darren_Errman · Post #31 » by **Darren_Errman** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:01 pm

A lot of people saw star potential from Peja his rookie year. He was brilliant at times. I don't know if we can say that about Ben outside of maybe 2 games. Nobody questioned Peja's bball IQ even when he struggled.

I believe in Ben, but I don't see any star potential. Our hope is for him to be a solid contributor hopefully good enough to be an NBA starter on a good team.

Kings2013 · Post #32 » by **Kings2013** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:29 pm

Cruel_Ruin wrote:People are way too early giving up on Ben's career. I don't know if he'll ever be a star, but he'll definitely be a productive player in his own right.

Some of the people looking to dump him off ought to go check out Peja's rookie year stats and compare them with Ben's. Then get back to me.

Cruel, I know your a respected poster so I hate to go at this but how do you know he definitely will be solid from what you have seen from him, being one of the few rookies to have a per less than 8, and IMO looking bewildered (BBIQ) at times? I'm not high on the kid, but I wouldn't say I'm looking to dump him off, I just don't expect (>50%) that he will be an impact player for the Kings in the future. Peja was at outlier IMO

Cruel_Ruin · Post #33 » by **Cruel_Ruin** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:31 am

Kings2013 wrote:
Cruel_Ruin wrote:People are way too early giving up on Ben's career. I don't know if he'll ever be a star, but he'll definitely be a productive player in his own right.

Some of the people looking to dump him off ought to go check out Peja's rookie year stats and compare them with Ben's. Then get back to me.

Cruel, I know your a respected poster so I hate to go at this but how do you know he definitely will be solid from what you have seen from him, being one of the few rookies to have a per less than 8, and IMO looking bewildered (BBIQ) at times? I'm not high on the kid, but I wouldn't say I'm looking to dump him off, I just don't expect (>50%) that he will be an impact player for the Kings in the future. Peja was at outlier IMO

Well, I'm not a fortune teller so I don't know for sure that he'll be a contributor :lol:

But I do think the signs point towards it.

First off, while he was terrible at shooting overall, chances are (if he's working hard, which Cousins has assured us he is) that he's going to get it eventually. First off, his FT% is already really good. His form is also perfect. In college, he was proficient at shooting the three. In fact, if you just look at his shot chart, he's already good at shooting corner threes. The problem with his jumper is the length of the NBA three. He hasn't quite adjusted to it yet, but its hardly unprecedented for good shooters to struggle with NBA range as rookies.

Secondly, I don't think his problem was a lack of basketball IQ. His role in the NBA as a shooter/scorer doesn't really hang on his ability to break down the game in an analytical and complex way. He'll cut off the ball, he'll spot up, sometimes pump fake and attack the rim in straight line drives. Its really basic stuff.

The problem with Ben is the same problem that we saw from Cousins coming into the league: he's just moving too fast. We see this really often from kids coming off the AAU circuit. I saw the same problem with Hawes when we first drafted him. The tendency to move at a million mph, throw out every move you know, and not worry about the consequences. Success in the NBA is far more deliberate. You go through all of your motions, you mechanically repeat every step you've practiced thousands of times before. Ben hasn't gotten that yet. It takes experience. A young kid's brain is like a waterbug, zipping back and forth, where a veteran is going to be more focused and sure of himself.

His defense will click eventually to the point where he's serviceable on that end. He's got the desire to play good defense and good athleticism. I admit, I don't know if he will ever be great defensively. His reflexes and reaction times seem a step slow. I'm not sure if this is something you can improve. But at least learning not to bike on every fake, getting stronger physically, and his improving his understanding of defensive schemes at least should make him adequate.

A lot will be determined this year, to be fair. In Summer League he was inconsistent. And there is Stauskas breathing down his neck, who I would be shocked if he struggles to shoot like Ben did in his rookie year. Though, at the end of the day, Nik just doesn't have Ben's ceiling. Ben can get separation from his defender whenever he wants to, Nik can't. Ben can finish above the rim, Nik can't. Ben just flat out has a higher ceiling. So its silly to give up on him already after only a season.

Cruel_Ruin · Post #34 » by **Cruel_Ruin** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:42 am

Darren_Errman wrote:A lot of people saw star potential from Peja his rookie year. He was brilliant at times. I don't know if we can say that about Ben outside of maybe 2 games. Nobody questioned Peja's bball IQ even when he struggled.

I believe in Ben, but I don't see any star potential. Our hope is for him to be a solid contributor hopefully good enough to be an NBA starter on a good team.

Really. Hm.

Ben hit double figures in his rookie season 32 times, or 39% of total games. He hit at least 20 points three times, or 3.5% of total games.

Peja hit double figures in 18 of the 48 games he played in his rookie season (it was lockout-shortened) for a 37% percentage rate. He hit 20 points only once, a 2% rate.

Yeah, I'm calling this revisionist history regarding Peja's rookie year.

Kings2013 · Post #35 » by **Kings2013** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:07 am

Cruel_Ruin wrote:
Darren_Errman wrote:A lot of people saw star potential from Peja his rookie year. He was brilliant at times. I don't know if we can say that about Ben outside of maybe 2 games. Nobody questioned Peja's bball IQ even when he struggled.

I believe in Ben, but I don't see any star potential. Our hope is for him to be a solid contributor hopefully good enough to be an NBA starter on a good team.

Really. Hm.

Ben hit double figures in his rookie season 32 times, or 39% of total games. He hit at least 20 points three times, or 3.5% of total games.

Peja hit double figures in 18 of the 48 games he played in his rookie season (it was lockout-shortened) for a 37% percentage rate. He hit 20 points only once, a 2% rate.

Yeah, I'm calling this revisionist history regarding Peja's rookie year.

Peja is an outlier IMO. If we took all the rookie SGs who shot less than 39% from the field what percentage amounted to impact players is what I would like to know personally. As someone who supports Ben, how long should the team earmark him time without improved production if that is the case? For those who aren't supporters of the kid, it will be a thorn in the side for him to continue to hinder the rotation another year or two or three until there is consensus that the kid won't have a substantial career if that is the case. Should he earn his role?

Cruel_Ruin · Post #36 » by **Cruel_Ruin** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:19 am

Kings2013 wrote:
Cruel_Ruin wrote:
Darren_Errman wrote:A lot of people saw star potential from Peja his rookie year. He was brilliant at times. I don't know if we can say that about Ben outside of maybe 2 games. Nobody questioned Peja's bball IQ even when he struggled.

I believe in Ben, but I don't see any star potential. Our hope is for him to be a solid contributor hopefully good enough to be an NBA starter on a good team.

Really. Hm.

Ben hit double figures in his rookie season 32 times, or 39% of total games. He hit at least 20 points three times, or 3.5% of total games.

Peja hit double figures in 18 of the 48 games he played in his rookie season (it was lockout-shortened) for a 37% percentage rate. He hit 20 points only once, a 2% rate.

Yeah, I'm calling this revisionist history regarding Peja's rookie year.

Peja is an outlier IMO. If we took all the rookie SGs who shot less than 39% from the field what percentage amounted to impact players is what I would like to know personally. As someone who supports Ben, how long should the team earmark him time without improved production if that is the case? For those who aren't supporters of the kid, it will be a thorn in the side for him to continue to hinder the rotation another year or two or three until there is consensus that the kid won't have a substantial career if that is the case. Should he earn his role?

I wouldn't say Peja is an outlier. I would say that Peja isn't the norm. There are plenty of cases of shooters coming into the league struggling with their shot. Rip Hamilton (42%), Jason Richardson (42%), J.J. Redick (41%), Jason Terry (41%), Allan Houston (40.5%), Michael Redd (26%) and Kevin Martin (38.5%) in limited minutes, just to name a few. I'm not saying we should wait on Ben indefinitely, but giving up after one year is rather reactionary.

Call Me Geoff · Post #37 » by **Call Me Geoff** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:10 am

Rookie seasons don't define a player. If you judged Gary Payton or Scottie Pippen after their rookie years you probably wouldn't have imagined they would be In the HOF. Not saying Ben will be anything close to that but a judgement can't be made until we see what kind of progress he has made. He has a TON of talent. Needs to develop a left hand and gain consistency with his jumper. If he does that he'll be really good.

Fresh_Prince12 · Post #38 » by **Fresh_Prince12** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:34 pm

Would you trade him for john Henson?

SacKingZZZ · Post #39 » by **SacKingZZZ** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:07 pm

I think pretty much everyone on the board was on board with that one. One of those unfortunate trades that makes too much sense to every happen in real life. :lol:

SacKingZZZ · Post #40 » by **SacKingZZZ** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:10 pm

Call Me Geoff wrote:Rookie seasons don't define a player. If you judged Gary Payton or Scottie Pippen after their rookie years you probably wouldn't have imagined they would be In the HOF. Not saying Ben will be anything close to that but a judgement can't be made until we see what kind of progress he has made. He has a TON of talent. Needs to develop a left hand and gain consistency with his jumper. If he does that he'll be really good.

Calling on another thread one major difference is that they both had guaranteed minutes going forward. If Ben McLemore averages the kind of minutes in his second year that both of them did then Stauskas will be getting the big time short end of that stick.