RealGM Top 100 List #34

[Texas Chuck]

But that seems to be the main argument for Kidd over Payton; if that's your go to value, you are going to vote Kidd.

I don't think we have enough data to really make that the crux of any argument between Kidd and Payton, and I'm certainly not a guy who goes all in on RAPM. That said I think its worth at least mentioning the numbers on Kidd simply in an effort to attempt to put some sort of individual statistical measure on the impact he is having in a team game. I've harped on the difference he seems to mean in terms of w/l while conceding its hard to know exactly how he's doing it. Much of the stats seem to suggest his impact is more defensive, but we certainly aren't used to seeing PG's have that level of defensive impact.

And that's kind of the issue here. I said to you earlier that I thought it much easier to make a case for Kidd over Paul than it would be over Payton and if we are looking solely at box scores I don't know that I can make one at all.

I guess I find myself asking if Payton is really a good enough offensive player to make his advantages over Kidd that meaningful. He certainly has more volume and is somewhat more efficient, but he's not exactly a great offensive guard. So why should offense sort of be the tie-breaker when that's not really what either guy is about. I wouldn't for example use Mutombo's offensive edge over Ben Wallace as a tie-breaker between them. Or Magic's defense as one over Nash.

Anyway just some ramblings here.

[Texas Chuck]

More that the average level Payton played at over 11 seasons is better than Kidd's best season rather than Payton's worst season of the 11. (ducks expected incoming barrage of flack)

No flack. Just wanted to clarify your position and I appreciate you doing so. Off the top of my head I don't agree with that statement, but I will go back and try and do some research on Payton as I don't feel I have quite the handle on his individual seasons the way I do for Kidd at this point in the project.

[penbeast0]

But that seems to be the main argument for Kidd over Payton; if that's your go to value, you are going to vote Kidd.

I don't think we have enough data to really make that the crux of any argument between Kidd and Payton, and I'm certainly not a guy who goes all in on RAPM. That said I think its worth at least mentioning the numbers on Kidd simply in an effort to attempt to put some sort of individual statistical measure on the impact he is having in a team game. I've harped on the difference he seems to mean in terms of w/l while conceding its hard to know exactly how he's doing it. Much of the stats seem to suggest his impact is more defensive, but we certainly aren't used to seeing PG's have that level of defensive impact.

And that's kind of the issue here. I said to you earlier that I thought it much easier to make a case for Kidd over Paul than it would be over Payton and if we are looking solely at box scores I don't know that I can make one at all.

I guess I find myself asking if Payton is really a good enough offensive player to make his advantages over Kidd that meaningful. He certainly has more volume and is somewhat more efficient, but he's not exactly a great offensive guard. So why should offense sort of be the tie-breaker when that's not really what either guy is about. I wouldn't for example use Mutombo's offensive edge over Ben Wallace as a tie-breaker between them. Or Magic's defense as one over Nash.

Anyway just some ramblings here.

Well, certainly not Magic's defense over Nash, but yeah . . . I think Mutombo's offensive edge over Ben Wallace is a pretty big deal looking at the two of them. And I think Payton, while not on a Durant or Nash level offensively, was a Tony Parker level offensive weapon which is still pretty potent. I do'nt think Kidd can play that role; at best he's a Jason Kapono level scorer.

[penbeast0]

Typical Prime season:
Payton (Seattle) -- 20 ppg, 4.5 reb, 8 ast, 2.5 to @ .535ts%
Kidd (New Jersey) -- 14ppg, 6.0reb, 9ast, 3 to @ .500 ts%

I'll assume it was unintentional, but you've falsified Kidd's NJ stats.
In '02-'07 (all six full seasons in NJ), he was a 15/7/9 guy, with 3 to @ 51% ts%. (14.9/7.1/9.0/3.0 @ .507, to be precise).

Thanks, will fix . . . may have been looking a season early (don't think I was looking at the Dallas numbers). Payton's may not be completely accurate either. One reason I have so many posts here is because I have been trying to deal with some issues with a nursing home (no, not for me) and have been on and off hold all night so I've had this window open and shut all evening with maybe 3/4 attention.

[DQuinn1575]

I value peak and prime more heavily than most here, and feel that Durant's prime of 5 years is way better than anyone else left.

He is a Top 2 player over a 5 year span - I could give a list of stats, but don't feel it would add much to what people already know.

I feel everyone close to him is already in, and not sure right now who my next player is.




Vote for Kevin Durant

[trex_8063]

Typical Prime season:
Payton (Seattle) -- 20 ppg, 4.5 reb, 8 ast, 2.5 to @ .535ts%
Kidd (New Jersey) -- 14ppg, 6.0reb, 9ast, 3 to @ .500 ts%

I'll assume it was unintentional, but you've falsified Kidd's NJ stats.
In '02-'07 (all six full seasons in NJ), he was a 15/7/9 guy, with 3 to @ 51% ts%. (14.9/7.1/9.0/3.0 @ .507, to be precise).

Thanks, will fix . . . may have been looking a season early (don't think I was looking at the Dallas numbers). Payton's may not be completely accurate either. One reason I have so many posts here is because I have been trying to deal with some issues with a nursing home (no, not for me) and have been on and off hold all night so I've had this window open and shut all evening with maybe 3/4 attention.

No worries. And sorry if my post came across as accusatory.
I only noted it because Kidd's line seemed a bit skimpy at a glance, so I double-checked. I'm sort of a stickler for accuracy anyway, but especially when the inaccuracy runs against the guy I'm supporting .

fwiw, for prime Payton in Seattle ('94-'02) you were closer (and at least didn't have him skewed negatively): 20.9/4.5/7.8 with 2.7 tov @ .537 TS%.

[RebelWithACause]

I would be interested seeing a write up for McGrady vs Durant right now.
For me they are very similar up to this point: comparable peak, better 5 year prime for Durant, 2 more prime years for Mcgrady and better longevity.

Thoughts on this?

[Warspite]

Vote Isiah Thomas

12x all star
3x 1st team NBA (twice over MJ)

Winning playoff record vs Magic, MJ and Bird

One of the most historic winners in the history of the game. The greatest little man to ever play. Invented most of the offenses used today ( ex pick and pop).

[Quotatious]

Vote - Jason Kidd

I could basically quote drza's post where he compared Kidd to CP3, and Kidd looked surprisingly well in terms of his non-boxscore contributions (in boxscore, Paul looks way better - Joao Saraiva compared them pretty well as far as boxscore, and CP3's advantage was pretty huge there), but that seems to miss the point, quite a bit, because Kidd was elite in terms of his non-boxscore impact, "intangibles", if you will.

To sum up - Kidd's flaws are well known (inefficient scorer, relatively unimpressive in half-court, for an all-time great PG), but he's one of the very best (top 5) PG defenders ever, could basically guard 3 posiitons (PGs and SGs on a regular basis, and even some SFs, or just bigger perimeter players, like for example Pierce in the 2002 ECF, he did a decent job), elite rebounder for his position, had phenomenal court vision/passing ability, extremely high bball IQ, and he was amazing in terms of pushing the ball in transition, taking advantage of his ability to run the break by initiating it as often as possible (for example Drexler did the same). His longevity was terrific, and he was able to reinvent his game just a bit, and become a great role player in Dallas, after being "the man" in Phoenix and New Jersey, in his prime.

Gary Payton is a very serious candidate, too, but I just trust Kidd more in the playoffs - I know what I'm going to get from him, while GP had some really disappointing postseason showings, a bit too often...He was a high risk, high reward option, but more often than not, he was disappointing.

Durant is certainly better than Kidd, but I can't take him over Jason yet, considering that J-Kidd played more than twice as many minutes as KD, almost all of those as a meaningful contributor.

Kidd over Isiah because 1) he actually had areas where he was elite (defense, versatility) and 2) longevity. Honestly, I'd take 2002-03 Kidd over any version of Thomas, too.

It's really weird - Kidd just barely lost the run-off against CP3 (#31), and hasn't even gotten into another since then...

[Laimbeer]

Vote Isiah Thomas

12x all star
3x 1st team NBA (twice over MJ)

Winning playoff record vs Magic, MJ and Bird

One of the most historic winners in the history of the game. The greatest little man to ever play. Invented most of the offenses used today ( ex pick and pop).

Could you expand on that a bit? That's the first time I've seen that type of comment made about him.

[penbeast0]

Vote Isiah Thomas

12x all star
3x 1st team NBA (twice over MJ)

Winning playoff record vs Magic, MJ and Bird

One of the most historic winners in the history of the game. The greatest little man to ever play. Invented most of the offenses used today ( ex pick and pop).

Could you expand on that a bit? That's the first time I've seen that type of comment made about him.

Funny, I remember pick and pop back into the 70s. Pick and roll with guys like Randy Smith and Bob McAdoo where McAdoo would curl out and take the shot seems pretty typical of this play.

Maybe Warspite means Cousy on this particular point . . . he was advocating him a few threads ago.

[batmana]

Again voting for Kevin Durant.

In my opinion his peak is high enough (even if he is still in the middle of it) to rank him above Isiah, Kidd and the rest of the field. I previously supported Bill Walton and think he belongs this high as well but he is not getting enough support yet. Durant combines volume scoring on incredible efficiency, he is a very tricky cover, almost impossible to contain; he also made big strides in becoming an all-around player, and is working on his defense so I would call him a good rebounder (for his position) and not a liability on defense. Longevity is a non-factor since he is still so young but if we had a player with 10 "Durant" seasons, he'd probably be already voted in.

[Texas Chuck]

Again voting for Kevin Durant.

In my opinion his peak is high enough (even if he is still in the middle of it) to rank him above Isiah, Kidd and the rest of the field. I previously supported Bill Walton and think he belongs this high as well but he is not getting enough support yet. Durant combines volume scoring on incredible efficiency, he is a very tricky cover, almost impossible to contain; he also made big strides in becoming an all-around player, and is working on his defense so I would call him a good rebounder (for his position) and not a liability on defense. Longevity is a non-factor since he is still so young but if we had a player with 10 "Durant" seasons, he'd probably be already voted in.

If Durant had 10 Durant seasons he'd already be in too. The problem is he doesnt.

[Basketballefan]

I have no clue who to vote for at this point. All the guys that were included in my top 30ish have now been voted in. I suppose KD is a fair candidate at this point, his longevity is short but his peak is definitely one of the top 20 ever imo.

How does KD's career stack up against that of Gervin, Iverson, Pierce, Mchale etc???

Maybe this this a mental lapse on my part but has Thomas been voted in yet? If not i will probably be voting for him.

Do you have a reason why he is better than a better shooting, better defense PG like Payton?

Yes, he's a better offensive player and has done more in the playoffs.

[Clyde Frazier]

Could be totally making this up, but did someone say there are some inaccuracies on bball reference with gilmore's stats?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... oar01.html

[tsherkin]

I have no clue who to vote for at this point. All the guys that were included in my top 30ish have now been voted in. I suppose KD is a fair candidate at this point, his longevity is short but his peak is definitely one of the top 20 ever imo.

How does KD's career stack up against that of Gervin, Iverson, Pierce, Mchale etc???

Maybe this this a mental lapse on my part but has Thomas been voted in yet? If not i will probably be voting for him.

Do you have a reason why he is better than a better shooting, better defense PG like Payton?

Yes, he's a better offensive player and has done more in the playoffs.

How would you choose to demonstrate his offensive superiority?

[Basketballefan]

Do you have a reason why he is better than a better shooting, better defense PG like Payton?

Yes, he's a better offensive player and has done more in the playoffs.

How would you choose to demonstrate his offensive superiority?

Better playmaker and better at creating his own shot. And i'm not saying he's "superior" i think he should geta small edge in that regard.

But it's more about the his playoff performances and the fact that he led his team to 2 championships.

[tsherkin]

Yes, he's a better offensive player and has done more in the playoffs.

How would you choose to demonstrate his offensive superiority?

Better playmaker and better at creating his own shot. And i'm not saying he's "superior" i think he should geta small edge in that regard.

The second part is debatable and neither the statistical angle nor longevity favor him in that comparison; it is far from cut and dried in Isiah's favor, particularly as a less effective scorer.

But it's more about the his playoff performances and the fact that he led his team to 2 championships.

Right, but a rings argument is a bad one, so we can generally discount that in meaningful discourse, since we can account for style, team strength, strength of competition, teammate performances and so forth in such discussion.

Isiah was good, but let's not pretend like he was clearly and obviously better than Payton, because that is demonstrably false. His RS offense compares for around 3 or 4 seasons , then tails off sharply. He was noted for winning rings on a defensive team and was considerably inferior to Payton at individual defense. He wasn't a better scorer. Swap them, and Payton might have two rings. Injure Jordan like 89 Magic, he might also have a ring.

Food for thought.

[Basketballefan]

How would you choose to demonstrate his offensive superiority?

Better playmaker and better at creating his own shot. And i'm not saying he's "superior" i think he should geta small edge in that regard.

But it's more about the his playoff performances and the fact that he led his team to 2 championships.

Swap them, and Payton might have two rings. Injure Jordan like 89 Magic, he might also have a ring.

Food for thought.

You're right, he may have 2 rings or he may not. I don't like to play the "what-if" scenarios. Mainly because you can't prove one way or the other what would've happened.

The gap between the 2 is definitely not large. If i study Payton more in depth i suppose i could change my mind but for now i'll still go with Thomas.

[penbeast0]

Could be totally making this up, but did someone say there are some inaccuracies on bball reference with gilmore's stats?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... oar01.html

Nothing major. In the new per 100 stats, when it looks at his ABA figures, B-R.com wrote the pp100 as 42.1 when the actual average is a lot more like 25.3 (they don't have per 100 for 72 or 73 either).