Cousins

[popper]

It's funny but before the Seattle playoff game one could make an argument that RG3 was the most valuable player in the NFL. His ability to play the read option to perfection and, as a result, freeze defenses and throw down field, made him a very unique and effective QB. As a pocket passer, he is average at best and his value is less than half what it was in his first year.

[lastemp3ror]

The larger issue here is Snyder. He doesn't respect his draft picks and building through them. He either trades them for some guy at the end of his career, or trades all of them for one rookie. He put all of his eggs in one basket, and now because of it we have a QB who hasn't had a fully healthy season yet. Partly because we don't have the draft picks to get offensive lineman to keep RG3 upright.

I find this 20/20 hindsight remarkable. Were you opposed to giving up those picks for RG3 at the time? If RG3 had stayed healthy and played like he did his rookie season would you be complaining about the draft picks the Skins gave up to get him? Football is a brutal sport. Guys get hurt. I'm no fan of Danny Boy but I can't blame him for that.

Actually, yes I was one of the few that didn't want to make the trade. I made this post on hailredskins.com 2 years ago, before RG3 even played a single game:

"I remember everyone used to complain about not having any draft picks, not being able to build through the draft, and always being stuck with some old superstar that doesn't perform anymore (Bruce Smith, McNabb, Deion, etc) after we threw tens of millions towards them.

With Manning, not only are we getting another really old superstar, but if anything, there are more question marks about his health than any other player we have gotten in the past 10 years. Isn't anyone scared that he may not even play 6 games? He has had 4 surgeries on his neck! Haven't we been down this road before??

With RG3, like everyone else, I would love to have him on our squad, but for every elite quarterback found in the top half of the 1st round, there is also a bust. To couple that with the fact that we would have to mortgage this draft and the next one to move up 4 spots, in my opinion, is putting a lot on the line. I haven't even talked about the amount of money we will need to use to sign the #2 pick overall.

I say lets save our money, and our picks and focus on our other weak spots (which we have several of). Trust me, I don't want another year with Rex starting either, but this doesn't mean that our only other options are Peyton and RG3. Let's find a decent QB like Orton, Gerrard, Smith, etc that would cost less and may do well here. Yes I know that this league is very dependent on the QB position, and more likely than not, you need an elite QB to win it all, but you also need a great defense and a decent/great offense. We are not one QB away from the Super Bowl. Meaning we also have the next off season (at minimum) to address all of our needs. Who knows what the next off season will bring us.

Can we just act like a normal NFL team for once, and build through the draft!"

http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/sho ... 05&page=14

To answer your second question, although RG3 came out the gate firing on all cylinders, I was ecstatic as any fan would be. Nobody is going to sit here and tell you otherwise. Then he got injured in game 12 against the Ravens and then it reminded me of how he already had one major surgery. Then he had his second surgery. Then he had a horrible 2nd year.

I hope he has just had bad luck and comes back to the greatness he produced in that first season and doesn't get injured again. However that is wishful thinking.

[Dat2U]

The larger issue here is Snyder. He doesn't respect his draft picks and building through them. He either trades them for some guy at the end of his career, or trades all of them for one rookie. He put all of his eggs in one basket, and now because of it we have a QB who hasn't had a fully healthy season yet. Partly because we don't have the draft picks to get offensive lineman to keep RG3 upright.

I find this 20/20 hindsight remarkable. Were you opposed to giving up those picks for RG3 at the time? If RG3 had stayed healthy and played like he did his rookie season would you be complaining about the draft picks the Skins gave up to get him? Football is a brutal sport. Guys get hurt. I'm no fan of Danny Boy but I can't blame him for that.

I do blame Snyder for the environment where a guy that clearly didn't have his legs last season was allowed to start and play until it was beyond clear that he wasn't ready... only to come out the summer afterwards and have everyone basically admit he wasn't ready.

I also blame Shanahan for leaving a guy out there on the field to basically drive his career into the ground as Ruz already mentioned.

Personally, I doubt RGIII ever gets that top speed back, just eye-balling it he looks more like a 4.6 guy now. Certainly good enough to move around the pocket or break containment, probably not fast enough to go 80 years anymore without someone catching him.

[Kanyewest]

The larger issue here is Snyder. He doesn't respect his draft picks and building through them. He either trades them for some guy at the end of his career, or trades all of them for one rookie. He put all of his eggs in one basket, and now because of it we have a QB who hasn't had a fully healthy season yet. Partly because we don't have the draft picks to get offensive lineman to keep RG3 upright.

I find this 20/20 hindsight remarkable. Were you opposed to giving up those picks for RG3 at the time? If RG3 had stayed healthy and played like he did his rookie season would you be complaining about the draft picks the Skins gave up to get him? Football is a brutal sport. Guys get hurt. I'm no fan of Danny Boy but I can't blame him for that.

Actually, most people I know in person were against the trade happening at the time- it was worth it for a time when RG3 was rookie of the year. Personally, I would have rather had more pieces/picks to find a good player than the other way around. Especially since the Redskins have done well with their draft picks.

I'll blame Snyder/Shanahan for getting McNabb in the first place when the Redskins should have gone for all out terrible with Andrew Luck on the board. The RG3 gamble wasn't so bad compared to some other Snyder moves and even though I was against it, I'm still hope it works out for the best.

[Kanyewest]

The larger issue here is Snyder. He doesn't respect his draft picks and building through them. He either trades them for some guy at the end of his career, or trades all of them for one rookie. He put all of his eggs in one basket, and now because of it we have a QB who hasn't had a fully healthy season yet. Partly because we don't have the draft picks to get offensive lineman to keep RG3 upright.

I find this 20/20 hindsight remarkable. Were you opposed to giving up those picks for RG3 at the time? If RG3 had stayed healthy and played like he did his rookie season would you be complaining about the draft picks the Skins gave up to get him? Football is a brutal sport. Guys get hurt. I'm no fan of Danny Boy but I can't blame him for that.

I do blame Snyder for the environment where a guy that clearly didn't have his legs last season was allowed to start and play until it was beyond clear that he wasn't ready... only to come out the summer afterwards and have everyone basically admit he wasn't ready.

I also blame Shanahan for leaving a guy out there on the field to basically drive his career into the ground as Ruz already mentioned.

Personally, I doubt RGIII ever gets that top speed back, just eye-balling it he looks more like a 4.6 guy now. Certainly good enough to move around the pocket or break containment, probably not fast enough to go 80 years anymore without someone catching him.

I blame the Shanahans because it was pretty clear that he was injured. But RG3 had his own accountability as well since he pretty much hid that he was injured as he was to the coaching staff during the Seahawks game.

[Dat2U]

I don't see how you blame RG3... you can't expect a player to take himself out of a playoff game. I don't know what guy would if he could as long as he could still walk. The coach has to be accountable there and make the tough decision that a player can't make. A good coach will protect a player from himself, not blindly (and yes it was blindly because any schmo could see RG3 was badly hurt) assume the player is going to be level headed regarding his health when were expect & demand players to lay it all on the line during the playoffs.

[lastemp3ror]

I don't see how you blame RG3... you can't expect a player to take himself out of a playoff game. I don't know what guy would if he could as long as he could still walk. The coach has to be accountable there and make the tough decision that a player can't make. A good coach will protect a player from himself, not blindly (and yes it was blindly because any schmo could see RG3 was badly hurt) assume the player is going to be level headed regarding his health when were expect & demand players to late it all on the line during the playoffs.

Didn't Jay Cutler take himself out of a playoff game two years ago? Even if RG3 was able to play in games 13 thru 16 and wanted to play, fine. But for that Seattle playoff game, it was evident that he should of came out after the half. Yes I blame the coach more, but in that particular game, it was pretty bone-headed of RG3 to jeopardize his future for the sake of one game. I don't think there was a single person watching the game that didn't cringe every time he moved with the ball.

[Ruzious]

I don't see how you blame RG3... you can't expect a player to take himself out of a playoff game. I don't know what guy would if he could as long as he could still walk. The coach has to be accountable there and make the tough decision that a player can't make. A good coach will protect a player from himself, not blindly (and yes it was blindly because any schmo could see RG3 was badly hurt) assume the player is going to be level headed regarding his health when were expect & demand players to late it all on the line during the playoffs.

Didn't Jay Cutler take himself out of a playoff game two years ago? Even if RG3 was able to play in games 13 thru 16 and wanted to play, fine. But for that Seattle playoff game, it was evident that he should of came out after the half. Yes I blame the coach more, but in that particular game, it was pretty bone-headed of RG3 to jeopardize his future for the sake of one game. I don't think there was a single person watching the game that didn't cringe every time he moved with the ball.

Jay Cutler is the exception that proves the rule. He's a different kind of guy, and he took a ton of flack for doing it. The coach is completely accountable in that situation, and the Shanny's have clearly been around long enough to know that. They fubar'd up - and that ruined a lot of things - including trust issues.

[Nivek]

It's silly to blame Griffin for attempting to play through an injury. That's what athletes do -- especially football and hockey players. Of course he wasn't going to take himself out of the game. It's the coach's job to make that call. Shanahan blew it.

I also don't fault Griffin for the return last season. He pushed as hard as possibly could to get back in the lineup, which is exactly what he should have been doing. Once again, it's the coach's job to say yes or no. Shanahan blew it in two ways with Griffin's return last season. First, by letting him return week one at all. The return should have been after the bye. And second, by letting him return week one without playing in preseason. It was pure delusion to think Griffin could play effectively in a regular season game with a knee that was less than healthy and without any preseason game speed work. And, Shanahan had WAY too much experience to engage in that kind of delusion.

[TGW]

Nivek--you're assuming that Shanahan was the sole voice in the decision to play Griffin.

If you look at Shanahan's past, he's never allowed a player to start a season without getting some work in the preseason. I think the decision to play Griffin had alot to do with Griffin's relationship with Snyder.

[Nivek]

Nivek--you're assuming that Shanahan was the sole voice in the decision to play Griffin.

If you look at Shanahan's past, he's never allowed a player to start a season without getting some work in the preseason. I think the decision to play Griffin had alot to do with Griffin's relationship with Snyder.

Actually, I'm not making the assumption that Shanahan was the sole voice. However, the bill of goods sold when he got the job was that he had complete control of the football team. He was to be The Decision Maker when it came to football matters. To the extent that he ceded that power back to Snyder or Allen…that's on Shanahan. He was given complete control when he took the job. If he went along with something he thought was a bad idea, well…that's his responsibility.

He could have told whoever was behind the Griffin for Week One thing that it was a bad idea and that he wouldn't do it. He could have told whoever that it was a bad idea to let Griffin play week one without any preseason action and that he wouldn't do it. There's zero evidence that Shanahan did either. So, football decisions made under Shanahan's reign are on Shanahan.

(Just to be clear, I think Snyder is a disingenuous, reprehensible twerp. And, I think one of Czaban's increasingly rare good moments was his description of Allen as Vice President of Picnics and Pants. So, this isn't any kind of defense of Snyder.)

[hands11]

I want both RG3 and Cousins to succeed, as any fan should. That way we have two viable options and one potential trade chip.

In regards to Cousins last performance, it sucked. However I am not going to say, like some on here, that this performance shows us what we should expect of him. Just like I am not going to say that since RG3 sucked all of last season, that he can't be a great QB.

What I am scared of is that both may not be viable starting QB's going forward. Cousins due to decision making like Rex Grossman and RG3 due to be injured all the time.

Here is a question for all of you. If you could go back in time, would you still make that trade with St. Louis to get RG3? Now knowing what you know? For me, as much as I want RG3 to succeed, I wouldn't make that trade. This is his third major surgery in 4/5 years.

They both need good coaching and a reliable steady system.

I get a good feeling about the coaching we have. Its something to build from. But it could still take two more years before they get to where the Wizards are.

[FreeBalling]

Also, I really don't get this comment "I think the Baltimore game must have sent fear into Gruden in regards to RG-III ability to throw passes at the NFL level

O-Yea, come on... 5/8 passing sounds great right?

For 20 yards

One pick (INT)

2.5 avg per pass.

3 sacks for 15 yards. 20-15 = 5 yards down field.

27.1 RTG


What part were you confused on? I fail to see the down field passing. Has Robert made long passes. Yes. Is he skilled at it at the NFL level. Not in the last two years. Maybe he will return back to year one passer in year four.

Continuing to grind that axe huh? I really never understood the RG3 hate that a small chunk of the fan base has embraced. It would seem like most Redskins fans would want the 'franchise QB' to succeed, but I guess that would be asking for too much. I bet you'll now figure out a way to prop up Colt McCoy as a option since your boy Kirk got exposed.

There is no hate here for Robert. However, I fail to see the necessary development required to become a successful PASSING QB in today’s NFL. The rules have changed to entice down field passing. The QB position is the most elite position on the team. Therefore, it’s Robert’s responsibility to be around for the next play and not put his body in unnecessary risk for injury. I think this is where the super fans of RG-III fail to see some of his short comings, because the wins are not there. The player development is not there and staying healthy is not there.

What is there? Salary, faith and brand awareness.

Is it the excessive draft picks given up that blind RG-III fans or just blind hope of a selfish run first QB that scraps designed pass plays only to resort back to peewee style back yard scramble plays at the NFL level?

RG-III is an offensive coordinator worst nightmare, think about it for a second. The team practices timing plays to become as efficient as possible. All of that hard work is blown off because Robert does not understand pocket passing. The defensive ends are freak of nature, and just as fast as RG-III.

I will only put RG-III on a pedestal if he wins games like, Brady, Manning, Luck, Wilson, Baugh, Jurgensen, Theismann, Williams and B-Mitch.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BynBZNiE9EA[/youtube]

[Knighthonor]

The starting QB is Cousins' job. Even if RG3 heals in the next 10-12 weeks.



Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Anybody quote this dude--^ yet?

I want to quote you quoting him!

and I want to quote you, quoting me, quoting him. lmao

[Kanyewest]

I don't see how you blame RG3... you can't expect a player to take himself out of a playoff game. I don't know what guy would if he could as long as he could still walk. The coach has to be accountable there and make the tough decision that a player can't make. A good coach will protect a player from himself, not blindly (and yes it was blindly because any schmo could see RG3 was badly hurt) assume the player is going to be level headed regarding his health when were expect & demand players to lay it all on the line during the playoffs.

I agree that's true that Shanahan should have taken him out of the game. Still, Griffin should have been smart enough to realize that he was hurting his team. I understand that it is in his nature to want to compete but it is also one of his biggest weaknesses in that he exposes himself to too much danger. He doesn't throw it away to avoid hits ever and he hasn't learned how to slide fall into this common theme.

Guys take themselves out of playoff games occasionally. Tom Brady took himself out in the 2001 AFC championship game and Drew Bledsoe won it for him. Someone already mentioned Cutler. Then of course there are guys that play through injuries in the postseason like Phillip Rivers (and in the meantime Ladainian Tomlinson took himself out of that same game).

And then RG3 fails to disclose this injury to the coaching staff that he told Trent Williams.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-sou ... t-Williams

I think both are true that Shanahan should have taken him out of the game and Griffin should have been smarter himself. I think you may be right that Shanahan is more culpable because it was pretty clear to everyone that was watching that Griffin should have been taken out.

[Higga]

Beating this dead horse again?

[Wizardspride]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Rich_TandlerCSN/status/519837763425009665[/tweet]

[W. Unseld]

A. First & foremost despite the Seahawks loss I saw a tiny ray of light--Cousins isn't shell-shocked, at least not yet. 0 turnovers & some nice downfield passes to D Jax is a good comeback to that horrendous Giants outing.

B. Everyone & their brother knew we were giving up too much for RG3 but Luck wasn't for sale. I told a buddy at the time that given the Skins luck he'd probably be a bust, he said "No, that's not painful enough for the Skins. He'll probably be really good then get tragically injured--you know, like Sean Taylor." OUCH.

C. RG3 had more control of the team than Shanny at that point who was already playing weird power games with the owner (threatened to quit before Seattle game etc.). I assign a little bit of the blame to RG3 and the rest to Shanny & Snyder. Having previously worked under bad ownership I can verify that it usually starts at the top.

D. You can't just call RG3 a bust. There has to be a different category for a guy who had turned the league on its ear before injury. He was a h*ll of a leader (probably still is but if you're average to below average guys aren't going to listen to you for long); by all accounts he's a hell of a hard worker but I think the injury effected his accuracy & I think pocket presence is hard to develop.


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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The starting QB is Cousins' job. Even if RG3 heals in the next 10-12 weeks.



Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Anybody quote this dude--^ yet?

Knighthonor, quote me on this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TuPQvzO5Js[/youtube]

31K posts over 13 years on RealGM, and you call me dude. You remind me of the song above.

I said that about Kirk Cousins 2 years ago. That he's proving to be a somewhat competent starting NFL QB is giving my original thought credence.

When the Redskins win some games and get to about 5-7, and Kirk is balling, be forewarned that I plan to clown on you, Knighthonor. You serve me up and I return service.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

A. First & foremost despite the Seahawks loss I saw a tiny ray of light--Cousins isn't shell-shocked, at least not yet. 0 turnovers & some nice downfield passes to D Jax is a good comeback to that horrendous Giants outing.

B. Everyone & their brother knew we were giving up too much for RG3 but Luck wasn't for sale. I told a buddy at the time that given the Skins luck he'd probably be a bust, he said "No, that's not painful enough for the Skins. He'll probably be really good then get tragically injured--you know, like Sean Taylor." OUCH.

C. RG3 had more control of the team than Shanny at that point who was already playing weird power games with the owner (threatened to quit before Seattle game etc.). I assign a little bit of the blame to RG3 and the rest to Shanny & Snyder. Having previously worked under bad ownership I can verify that it usually starts at the top.

D. You can't just call RG3 a bust. There has to be a different category for a guy who had turned the league on its ear before injury. He was a h*ll of a leader (probably still is but if you're average to below average guys aren't going to listen to you for long); by all accounts he's a hell of a hard worker but I think the injury effected his accuracy & I think pocket presence is hard to develop.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums mobile app

I think Cousins is likely the better QB for this offense than RG3. I believe Cousins will crack the learning curve. At the same time, I think RG3 will improve, too, in this offense.

Griffin was phenomenal running the read option as a rookie. All he did wrong was to get hurt. He's no Russell Wilson when it comes to sliding, and using his run decisively. RG3 seemed to me to be playing on a lot of heart and emotion. He second season, with the injuries he started pressing and stressing over mistakes; and he was less of a threat to run because of his injury. That made RG3 a scared, one-trick pony.

The ironic part to me is Griffin has a cannon arm. In theory he could be a terrific quarterback even for this offense, but his decision making delays and reckless running style make him seemed doomed to be a bit of a bust.