RealGM Top 100 List #35

[Quotatious]

Official vote - Artis Gilmore.

Why? Mainly because of his elite defense for the first 6 seasons of his career, when he anchored the best or second best defense in the ABA (first 5 in the ABA, then one in the NBA), but he was still an All-Defensive 2nd team member in 1978, when Chicago's DRtg dropped by a ton - it may be a sign of him getting that recognition due to reputation, like for example Kobe's All-Defense selections in the late 2000s/early 2010s, but it may also be similar to Ewing's 1990 and 1991 season, KG's seasons in Minnesota (except 2004), or 2014 Dwight, who we know were great individual defenders, but just didn't have a lot of defensive talent around them, and as a result, didn't anchor top 10 defensive teams.

Gilmore's longevity/durability was amazing - he had 15 All-Star caliber seasons, and despite his offensive limitations (poor hands, poor passer, turnover prone), he was still a very competent scorer - averaged over 20 PPG in 6 different seasons, all on very high efficiency. He's also second all-time in career TS%, and third in career field goal percentage - with USG% over 20, and 18.8 PPG for his career, that's a very impressive accomplishment.

He was also a great rebounder (for example his career TRB% is higher than Shaq's, D-Rob's and Ewing's).

Also a pretty good playoff performer (just -1.1 PPG, -1.0 PER, -2.1% TS and -1.9 WS/48, compared to his career regular season numbers, so he was definitely reliable in the postseason).

Playoff career, scoring efficiency and longevity (just by a bit in terms of longevity) are his arguments over Payton.
Longevity (huge edge) and defense are his arguments over Durant.
All-around play (scoring + defense + rebounding) are his arguments over Reggie.
Scoring, defense and longevity are his arguments over Isiah.

[Texas Chuck]

Official Vote: Dikembe Mutombo

I too am open to changing this based on arguments, but for now I'm going with Deke. I'm not going to try and build a case for him here either but just give some reasoning to validate my vote.

Best defensive big man left. A true defensive anchor

Terrific rebounder and shot-blocker

Strong longevity

Good enough offensively considering his defensive impact.

Led biggest upset I recall in my lifetime--8th seeded Nuggets over top-seeded Sonics. Still can see him laying on the floor holding the ball with a giant smile on his face.

Final piece to the Iverson Sixers that went to the Finals and had a really good playoffs.

[tsherkin]

Vote Isiah Thomas

Great volume scorer

This isn't true. He had one season of 21+ ppg, scored 20-20.9 in four other seasons (the 4 following his career-high of 21.6), and did that from 83-87 on 53.1% TS... but only one season above 52.9% TS (86, 55.4% TS, 20.9 ppg).

By no measure was any of that great, particularly when he was under league average in all of those years apart from 86. By year, he was -0.6, -2.3, -1.4, +1.3 and -1.0.

He was actually a BAD scorer in the regular season, making his value on offense known through playmaking (and really fantastic stuff there, actually), but scoring was definitely not something of his you could accurately call "great."

So, lacking both volume and league-average efficiency, it would again be inaccurate to call him a "great volume scorer."

But what about the playoffs? Surely, Thomas had some timely moments, and that needs to be considered. However, over that same span, he played 33 playoff games (missing in 83), averaging 24.0 ppg (a much higher average, though still not crazy for a volume scorer), and posted it on 53.3% TS (higher in his shorter runs, about the usual over his 15-game run in 87, bloody terrible in 86, sub-50% during his best RS scoring campaign).

This is not the resume of a guy whose scoring should be played up.

That said, he had a fantastic run in 85 against the Nets and even against Boston until the last two games. In 84, he had two crap games (as a scorer), an average one and then two good games, closing out against New York with a phenomenal performance (35 points on 60.4% TS) in a 4-point loss while apex B-King assassinated them with an ATG series. He put up 44 that game, on 65.4% shooting from the field, was basically unstoppable. Shame that Isiah was such crap to open the series, though, or that series might have gone very differently. Or, you know, if Tripucka hadn't sucked ass in that game. Etc, etc. OT elimination game and Isiah showed up (though didn't he foul out?), so that was cool.

But again, while he had some timely moments and was a great playmaker, and while those help paint a picture of a player who was better than his scoring numbers suggest, calling him a "great scorer" is just inaccurate revisionism. He wasn't great compared to his in-era peers, let alone to scorers in the more recent ages. He was great compared to say, Bob Cousy, but that's not really a compliment.

Making a case for Isiah ought to be done on the basis of his value as a playmaker and leader first, then based on what he could do as a help defender when he chose to focus on defense. He was definitely a gutsy player and he was a key part of those Pistons teams growing up and then contending/titling, but him scoring less coincided with them winning more for a reason.

[penbeast0]

Official vote - Artis Gilmore.

Why? Mainly because of his elite defense for the first 6 seasons of his career, when he anchored the best or second best defense in the ABA (first 5 in the ABA, then one in the NBA), but he was still an All-Defensive 2nd team member in 1978, when Chicago's DRtg dropped by a ton - it may be a sign of him getting that recognition due to reputation, like for example Kobe's All-Defense selections in the late 2000s/early 2010s, but it may also be similar to Ewing's 1990 and 1991 season, KG's seasons in Minnesota (except 2004), or 2014 Dwight, who we know were great individual defenders, but just didn't have a lot of defensive talent around them, and as a result, didn't anchor top 10 defensive teams.

Gilmore's longevity/durability was amazing - he had 15 All-Star caliber seasons, and despite his offensive limitations (poor hands, poor passer, turnover prone), he was still a very competent scorer - averaged over 20 PPG in 6 different seasons, all on very high efficiency. He's also second all-time in career TS%, and third in career field goal percentage - with USG% over 20, and 18.8 PPG for his career, that's a very impressive accomplishment.

He was also a great rebounder (for example his career TRB% is higher than Shaq's, D-Rob's and Ewing's.

Also a pretty good playoff performer (just -1.1 PPG, -1.0 PER, -2.1% TS and -1.9 WS/48, compared to his career regular season numbers, so he was definitely reliable in the postseason).

Playoff career, scoring efficiency and longevity (just by a bit in terms of longevity) are his arguments over Payton.
Longevity (huge edge) and defense are his arguments over Durant.
All-around play (scoring + defense + rebounding) are his arguments over Reggie.
Scoring, defense and longevity are his arguments over Isiah.

Where is this meme coming from that Artis had "poor hands, poor passer, turnover prone" -- he didn't and wasn't. He wasn't particularly elite at any of these facets but he had decent hands, was a better passer and less turnover prone than the likes of Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, or Dwight Howard. What is accurate is that he tended to be passive in the post rather than actively calling for the ball and that he did not have a tremendous b-ball IQ. But then, neither did any of those I already mentioned.

[Basketballefan]

durant shouldn't even be in this discussion. Hes been playing with stacked all time best players and STILL has won nothing. Hes been gifted with superstars and elite staff his entire career which gives off the illusion how he is seemingly better than players like Miller. Switch Leonard and durant and okc would have a title. I still believe durant is the product of a system created from playing with elite shot creators/ playmakers and high IQ players. I'm a durant fan but even i gotta be completely honest.

No trolling in this project Mr. Man.

[RSCD3_]

January Durant without Westbrook

35.9 ppg on 68.5 TS (54.9/43.6/89.0)
131 ORTG

Team was a +10.1 in these 16 games





Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[RayBan-Sematra]

Nice to see some Gilmore posts in this thread.
I am looking at him, Durant, Kidd & Gervin.

Durant I will probably exclude for now due to lack of longevity.

Gervin VS Kidd is something.
They both have great longevity. I am leaning towards Kidd though.
I am thinking his Bird like intangibles and all around play (scoring excluded) probably made him the more valuable player.
Plus he was an ATG defender at his position while Gervin was... not so good.
Gervin wasn't entirely one dimensional though. Outside of his GOAT scoring ability he was also a solid rebounder and a decent passer.

[Owly]

Vote Isiah Thomas

Great volume scorer and GOAT level passing to go along with a playoff career that is superior to every player not already voted in.

Great Volume scorer

25.3 career usage rate (high but not exceptional); .516 career TS% in high % era.

GOAT Level passing
High volume passing sure.
GOAT level? A/T ratio; pure point rating, anything that in any way factors in turnovers? No. Not close to. Having him over the pgs in already in this area, for instance, just seems unjustifiable.

Playoff career
Certainly his greatest strength. Still ...
Schayes (1 title as clear cut best player in both playoffs and RS), 23.3 career playoff PER, .189 WS/48; 14 WS.
Hagan (1 title as clear cut best player in the playoffs), 20.8 PER, ; .172; 10.6 WS (shorter era for playoffs)

Gasol, Miller, Ginobili, Kemp, Lanier, Gus Williams, Billups, Mutombo, Ramsey, Dantley, Baron Davis etc have across the board numbers that are comparable or better (except sometimes WS total, because they didn't have teams that went 8/9 deep with starter or better level talent, so don't have the playoff minutes) and this is from guys that aren't generally as lucky as Thomas in terms playing their longest playoffs in their mid-late 20s and missing the playoffs in their worst years. Then there's guys whose impact goes beyond the boxscore (Ben Wallace, the better non-headcase-y versions of Rodman, Unseld, DJ for example). Not that absolutely every one of these guys was better. But I don't think Isiah's the best of the bunch and who is depends a lot on criteria.

[RebelWithACause]

Nice to see some Gilmore posts in this thread.
I am looking at him, Durant, Kidd & Gervin.

Durant I will probably exclude for now due to lack of longevity.

Gervin VS Kidd is something.
They both have great longevity. I am leaning towards Kidd though.
I am thinking his Bird like intangibles and all around play (scoring excluded) probably made him the more valuable player.
Plus he was an ATG defender at his position while Gervin was... not so good.
Gervin wasn't entirely one dimensional though. Outside of his GOAT scoring ability he was also a solid rebounder and a decent passer.

Kidd is in

[RayBan-Sematra]

Kidd is in

Oh yeah... how did I forget that.
Guess I will focus on Gervin VS Gilmore then.

[Quotatious]

Where is this meme coming from that Artis had "poor hands, poor passer, turnover prone" -- he didn't and wasn't. He wasn't particularly elite at any of these facets but he had decent hands, was a better passer and less turnover prone than the likes of Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, or Dwight Howard. What is accurate is that he tended to be passive in the post rather than actively calling for the ball and that he did not have a tremendous b-ball IQ. But then, neither did any of those I already mentioned.

Gilmore has higher career TOV% than all of these players except Mutombo (17.5% TOV for Dikembe, 17.4% for Artis, so basically even). To be fair, his AST% is higher than Howard's, Mourning's and Mutombo's, just slightly lower than Ewing's (but Artis was more turnover prone). Anyway, I think they all (Moses and Yao, too), are the worst passers among star/superstar bigmen.

I just thought these were his weaknesses (along with the fact that he was a bit too passive offensively), based on the games/footage that I've seen, and it also makes sense when you look at stats. I'm not saying that he was THE worst of the centers I just mentioned, in these areas (he's not), but he's more or less in the same category as they are.

Him being too passive offensively (but on the other hand, you can say that he knew his role and didn't force the issue, so the argument can go both ways) is evident when you look at his USG%, which is clearly lower than Howard's and Mourning's, let alone Ewing's.

Anyway, I respect and value your opinion on this subject, a lot, because I'm sure you saw a lot more of Gilmore's games than me, and it seems to support A-Train's case even more. I just felt obligated to mention both his strengths and weaknesses, to make my evaluation fair and objective. It's certainly not like Gilmore didn't have any weaknesses, but for me, he seems like a better candidate than anyone else at this point. Payton, Isiah and Hayes are the next guys on my list (then Gervin).

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Isiah Thomas

Led the Pistons to back to back titles in an era that was tough as nails. Had to deal with peak Bird and Magic in the process. Also won finals mvp, lost only 1 series in his career with HCA. Took a franchise from the bottom to the top as well in the process.

[Doctor MJ]

Jumping in:

The thing that stopped me from moving Mutombo even higher than I already do, and why to me Gilmore clearly belongs ahead of him, is that Mutombo played far more sparingly.

Total minutes: Gilmore 47K, Mutombo 36K
2000+ minute seasons? Gilmore 15, Mutombo 10

For perspective:
Defensive Win Shares: Gilmore 75.5, Mutombo 68.5

And then of course:
Offensive Win Shares: Gilmore 114.1, Mutombo 48.5

It's a very big advantage, which when you factor in that Gilmore at his peak was seen as far more of a superstar-level player makes it just too much for me to ignore simply because I think that Mutombo was an amazing, amazing defensive player.

[Jaivl]

Jumping in:

The thing that stopped me from moving Mutombo even higher than I already do, and why to me Gilmore clearly belongs ahead of him, is that Mutombo played far more sparingly.

Total minutes: Gilmore 47K, Mutombo 36K
2000+ minute seasons? Gilmore 15, Mutombo 10

That didn't seem to matter with Nash, though. Don't really know why I should base my argument in a stat that I know underrates Deke.

And like I voted Nash over Kidd, I gotta vote Dikembe Mutombo over Gilmore. He has a massive defensive edge over all the field. Why value all-star caliber individual offense over GOAT-help defense, that's my question.

Maybe gonna change to Gilmore, Miller or KD in a runoff.

[Texas Chuck]

Jumping in:

The thing that stopped me from moving Mutombo even higher than I already do, and why to me Gilmore clearly belongs ahead of him, is that Mutombo played far more sparingly.

Total minutes: Gilmore 47K, Mutombo 36K
2000+ minute seasons? Gilmore 15, Mutombo 10

For perspective:
Defensive Win Shares: Gilmore 75.5, Mutombo 68.5

And then of course:
Offensive Win Shares: Gilmore 114.1, Mutombo 48.5

It's a very big advantage, which when you factor in that Gilmore at his peak was seen as far more of a superstar-level player makes it just too much for me to ignore simply because I think that Mutombo was an amazing, amazing defensive player.

Couple responses since I am the Mutombo guy here:

Longevity is a concern. His longevity is solid, but certainly he can be beat here. But for me that's part of why I waited this long to champion him. I think his impact is really really high and nothing I've heard or seen about Gilmore suggests he is at Deke's level.

Win Shares continues to be a stat that has no influence on me. Its a formulaic attempt to divy up team wins to individuals and I have lots of doubts about the validity of WS. And again it's use in this project has been very selective.

And I'm not going to be too influenced by perception unless the reality matches the perception. Melo is perceived currently to be a superstar, a top 5 player. But he isn't. Look at that absurd Tim Duncan is overrated thread where a bunch of guys think Duncan the last couple years has been a marginal player. Its hard to be perceived as a superstar unless you are an offensive-minded player. So that doesn't hold much weight either.

And finally, I'd love some more insight on Gilmore's defense. From what I've researched(which admittedly isn't enough) and seen(which again isn't very much) I don't rate him to be the same level of defender that I do Deke. But I'm certainly open to re-evaluating his defense as guys who know more than me share info.

[Doctor MJ]

Jumping in:

The thing that stopped me from moving Mutombo even higher than I already do, and why to me Gilmore clearly belongs ahead of him, is that Mutombo played far more sparingly.

Total minutes: Gilmore 47K, Mutombo 36K
2000+ minute seasons? Gilmore 15, Mutombo 10

That didn't seem to matter with Nash, though. Don't really know why I should base my argument in a stat that I know underrates Deke.

And like I voted Nash over Kidd, I gotta vote Dikembe Mutombo over Gilmore. He has a massive defensive edge over all the field. Why value all-star caliber individual offense over GOAT-help defense, that's my question.

Maybe gonna change to Gilmore, Miller or KD in a runoff.

I can't tell you how annoying it is that you cut off my post halfway when the other half includes "and of course Gilmore at his best was considered the better player".

It's fine if you believe Mutombo was a better player and think his peak play is enough to overcome the longevity, but hackishly trying to make me look like a hypocrite is pretty pathetic.

And of course, if that wasn't your intent, maybe read a bit more carefully.

[Clyde Frazier]

And I'm not going to be too influenced by perception unless the reality matches the perception. Melo is perceived currently to be a superstar, a top 5 player. But he isn't.

I disagree. A more general consensus would be closer to top 10 (on either end, I guess, but I'd confidently put him in the top 10). I think anyone insisting he's top 5 is essentially biased. Everyone has a different definition of a "superstar", too. Some people think there are 3 in the league, some think there's 1 on almost every team. Depends on that, too.

[trex_8063]

And I'm not going to be too influenced by perception unless the reality matches the perception. Melo is perceived currently to be a superstar, a top 5 player. But he isn't. Look at that absurd Tim Duncan is overrated thread where a bunch of guys think Duncan the last couple years has been a marginal player. Its hard to be perceived as a superstar unless you are an offensive-minded player. So that doesn't hold much weight either.

I think Doc was referring (at least in part) to perception by his (Artis's) professional peers, and not just fan-base. TD in recent years has been undercredited by a handful of fans, but his peers KNOW he's still legit, and this doesn't appear to have been lost on sports media either (given he nabbed 1st Team honors in 2013). Most of us recognize his value in the last couple seasons, too.

And Melo isn't a good example to labor the point you're trying to make. Melo is only doggedly pushed as a top 5 player year-after-year by fanboys; he has otherwise not been a consensus top 5 player in any year outside of 2013 (not by peers, media, or knowledgeable fans).

And finally, I'd love some more insight on Gilmore's defense. From what I've researched(which admittedly isn't enough) and seen(which again isn't very much) I don't rate him to be the same level of defender that I do Deke. But I'm certainly open to re-evaluating his defense as guys who know more than me share info.

I don't think anyone is saying his D is equal to Dikembe's. What they're saying is that there is not oceans of space separating Dikembe's D from Gilmore's (that Gilmore's defensive impact may be comparable to someone like Dwight Howard, for instance). And meanwhile Gilmore is the better offensive player (by leaps and bounds, really), who was also more durable (played 133 more games than Dikembe), had a greater number of high quality seasons, yada yada yada.

[trex_8063]

And finally, I'd love some more insight on Gilmore's defense. From what I've researched(which admittedly isn't enough) and seen(which again isn't very much) I don't rate him to be the same level of defender that I do Deke. But I'm certainly open to re-evaluating his defense as guys who know more than me share info.

Well I'll present a little bit of stuff for review; some of it is more suggestive of offensive impact, but draw whatever conclusions you like from it......

The Kentucky Colonels in '71:
44-40, -0.17 SRS
107.5 ORtg (+2.5 over league avg, 4th of 11).
107.5 DRtg (+2.5 [plus is bad] to league avg, 10th of 11).

Colonels in '72 (only relevant changes/acquisitions: new coach and obtain Artis Gilmore):
68-16, 7.99 SRS (1st of 11, +8.16 from year before)
104.2 ORtg (relative to league average, this is actually an improvement of 1.1, +3.6 to league avg; 2nd of 11)
96.2 DRtg (-4.4 to league avg, 1st of 11; relative to league this is a -6.9 improvement)

'73: ORtg 3rd of 10, DRtg 1st of 10
'74: ORtg 3rd of 10, DRtg 2nd of 10
'75: ORtg 5th of 10, DRtg 1st of 10 (a whopping -6.4 relative to league avg; team went 58-26 and won title)
'76: ORtg 6th of 9, DRtg 2nd of 9


Chicago Bulls in '76 (this is a team with Van Lier, Bob Love, Jack Marin, big Tom Boerwinkle, aging Nate Thurmond, and Jerry Sloan---though Sloan missed 60 games that year):
24-58, -2.90 SRS (18th of 18)
95.2 ORtg (-3.1 to league, 18th of 18)
98.0 DRtg (-0.3 to league, 9th of 18)

Bulls in '77 (relevant changes--->new coach, Jerry Sloan and Nate Thurmond are gone, aging Bob Love plays only 14 games, Gilmore arrives):
44-38, 0.93 SRS (9th of 22)
ORtg 98.3 (-1.2 to league, 15th of 22)
DRtg 97.4 (-2.1 to league---improvement by 1.8---2nd of 22)

Bulls would undergo a lot of line-up and coaching changes over the next several seasons, and Gilmore is slipping past his prime by ~1979-80; things would suffer a little. Team ORtg/DRtg rank over the next few years:
'78: ORtg 7th/DRtg 20th of 22
'79: ORtg 20th/DRtg 16th of 22 (Norm Van Lier is gone)
'80: ORtg 14th/DRtg 15th of 22
'81: ORtg 6th/DRtg 14th of 23
'82: ORtg 10th/DRtg 17th of 23
---Gilmore leaves
'83: ORtg 16th/DRtg 18th of 23 (also a 28-54 record; would go 27-55 the next year.....didn't fail to win 30+ games in any of Gilmore's six seasons there; had won 34 in '82)

[ChiTown6rings]

What are some thoughts and opinions of GP?