Lind questions management: 'Were we really trying to win?'

[Randle McMurphy]

Lind must be really butt hurt platooning. Really have to wonder if he's pushing himself out the door.

No, I just think he is Adam Lind, has no filter, and doesn't think about the implications of anything he says before he says it. He actually praised Gibbons (the manager who has rightfully platooned him) and hoped he would stay for 2015.

[satyr9]

This is, of course, utter nonsense. Playoffs were obviously very unlikely at that point, but the season was not over. It would have required a 19-7 month of September to get into the WC game, but teams go on stretches like that all the time. In fact, this very team accomplished pretty much the same feat in May (21-9). Even if the chance was remote, there was no good argument not to put the best lineup on the field with an entire sixth of the season left (and considering the replacements that still certainly involved Colby).

The Jays' puzzling lineup decisions also went way beyond just benching Rasmus for two scrubs that have no place starting games full-time in MLB. The team went an entire month starting a career platoon player at 3rd (Valencia) full-time for no good reason. And this isn't even getting into the way Gibbons inexplicably started managing the games in a way unlike he ever has before (odd bullpen changes, a failure to play the matchups, lack of platooning and pinch hitting when appropriate, etc.).

I'm usually the first one to rip on Lind for whatever stupid thing he says, but on this point, he's right on the mark. Management stopped trying to win at the end of August. You don't play guys like Pillar/Gose/Valencia otherwise if you are.

Of course. Of course. Anyone who doesn't 100% agree with every opinion you have is, of course, (Please Use More Appropriate Word), no? Give me a break Randle.

They were a .500 team 6.5 games out on August 29th first with a minimum of 4 teams to catch and had played 14 games under .500 for going on half a season, if you continued to believe throughout that's great for you, but that makes you incredibly optimistic.

And even if that's patent nonsense and everyone agrees they were in the midst of a race and gave up, they played great for the first two weeks of the changes you hated and went 10-3, that's a long way along the road to 19-7, almost making any optimism from labour day warranted. If you want to make the case they should've played that way for two weeks and then magically known the TB series was the time to put Colby and Juan back in the lineup, then you're free to make that argument, it just isn't an argument that I, of course, would choose to try and defend.

And I don't even believe they were failing to compete, there just isn't anywhere close to a definitive case for Juan over Valencia or Colby over Gose for September. Is Colby a better player than Gose? Yup. Is Juan a better option vs RHP than Valencia? Sure. Were either one of them playing well enough to be guys you have to play? Nope.

Maybe they just went with the hot, no matter how cold, hand over the other. Or maybe they just started playing for next year. Either way it's not some grand betrayal of the fans. And what's most amusing to me is you're complaining about decisions that came far closer to working than they should've. You think you know the answer and that's fine. You also think you know what it means and that meaning is some awful thing that they've personally done to you. Again, that's fine, I just think that it's, of course, utter nonsense.

[Randle McMurphy]

Of course. Of course. Anyone who doesn't 100% agree with every opinion you have is, of course, (Please Use More Appropriate Word), no? Give me a break Randle.

No, just those that are arguing against obvious facts. The Jays did not play their best lineup for a month nor were they eliminated from playoff contention at the beginning of September. When you put those two things together, it seems even Adam Lind can figure it out.

They were a .500 team 6.5 games out on August 29th first with a minimum of 4 teams to catch and had played 14 games under .500 for going on half a season, if you continued to believe throughout that's great for you, but that makes you incredibly optimistic.

Any remaining hope I had evaporated when I saw the lineups they were running out. But that doesn't mean a great month was outside the realm of possibility, we already saw one less than 3 months before (and it is the rather random sport of baseball where such streaks happen all the time).

And even if that's patent nonsense and everyone agrees they were in the midst of a race and gave up, they played great for the first two weeks of the changes you hated and went 10-3, that's a long way along the road to 19-7, almost making any optimism from labour day warranted. If you want to make the case they should've played that way for two weeks and then magically known the TB series was the time to put Colby and Juan back in the lineup, then you're free to make that argument, it just isn't an argument that I, of course, would choose to try and defend.

No, my argument is a rather simple one. It involves putting your best lineup out on the field until you're officially eliminated (especially when you're sadly as close to the playoffs as you have been in 16 years).

And I don't even believe they were failing to compete, there just isn't anywhere close to a definitive case for Juan over Valencia or Colby over Gose for September. Is Colby a better player than Gose? Yup. Is Juan a better option vs RHP than Valencia? Sure. Were either one of them playing well enough to be guys you have to play? Nope.

Rasmus is better than Gose and especially better than Pillar. And yet both played over him full-time when Melky got hurt (and this was when their odds had improved to somewhere around 7-8 percent in mid-September). If their primary motivation was still winning games, there is no good explanation for this.

Danny Valencia is a career .615 OPS (65 wRC+) hitter against RHP. Under no circumstances should he be playing full-time for a team that is trying to win baseball games. Even if you think fat Juan cannot hack it offensively or defensively any longer (to the point where he's not even allowed to step on the field), Kawasaki is still there as a platoon option. We also know that Gibbons is capable of both understanding the value of platoons and of executing them (because he did it effectively for years in his first run and has done it with Lind in his second). The only conclusion left to take from this is that winning was no longer being prioritized in September.

Or maybe they just started playing for next year.

Bingo. In fact, they basically said as much (which makes your contestation here all the more puzzling).

Either way it's not some grand betrayal of the fans.

I didn't say it was. They looked at the odds and made the call they thought was best at the time for the organization. That involved prioritizing 2015 and beyond over winning now. I would have preferred waiting a bit longer, but only time will tell whether it was the right call to make.

And what's most amusing to me is you're complaining about decisions that came far closer to working than they should've.

No, they really didn't. The wins they did have came mostly on the shoulders of a hot streak from Bautista (a top 5 player in baseball once again in 2014), Encarnacion (a top 10 hitter once again in 2014), and the improved pitching staff that went on a run of good form in September.

You also think you know what it means and that meaning is some awful thing that they've personally done to you. Again, that's fine, I just think that it's, of course, utter nonsense.

Awful to me personally? Hardly. The Jays decided their season was over at the end of August and made moves to better understand what they had going forward. Even if they were decisions I didn't understand or agree with (such as the playing of Valencia), the thinking behind them was clear.

[RaptorNews]

Still funny that Lind is the first one to ask this question, not the media.

And all the fans know better

This isn't manufacturing consent, its manufacturing apathy

[Michael Bradley]

Between AA's comments about having DH open to give guys rest (Reyes in particular) and now valuing health, I get the sense Lind is going be traded. As long as they replace him adequately I have no issues with it, but don't just give him away or decline his option.

[Lateral Quicks]

Between AA's comments about having DH open to give guys rest (Reyes in particular) and now valuing health, I get the sense Lind is going be traded. As long as they replace him adequately I have no issues with it, but don't just give him away or decline his option.

It looks like they kept Francisco to replace Lind at DH/1B and fill in for Lawrie when he inevitably misses half the season again.

[Michael Bradley]

Between AA's comments about having DH open to give guys rest (Reyes in particular) and now valuing health, I get the sense Lind is going be traded. As long as they replace him adequately I have no issues with it, but don't just give him away or decline his option.

It looks like they kept Francisco to replace Lind at DH/1B and fill in for Lawrie when he inevitably misses half the season again.

That's the impression I am getting as well. Francisco can play 1B and 3B (neither of them well obviously) and is also a platoon player, so they get a cheaper more versatile platoon player to replace Lind, and whatever drop-off occurs offensively due to that swap will hopefully be made up by allocating Lind's funds to 2B and whatever they happen to get back for Lind in a trade (my guess is a reliever).

I remember Davidi mentioning AA trying to get Francisco in a trade when he was with the Braves, and if the rumor about AA declining a deal for Headley mid-season with Francisco involved is true, then it wouldn't surprise me if the plan all along was to replace Lind with Fat Juan in 2015. When Alex likes a player, he goes all out.

[Santoki]

So they value Francisco that much for next season but didn't play him for nearly two months?

I'd rather have Lind playing 1B with his bat than Francisco's ability to play 3rd base since it's already terrible. Just play Izturis there or bring up Goins or Kawasaki when Lawrie gets hurt next year.

It makes no sense to give away Lind's bat against righties for Francisco. That's a significant drop off especially when Juan has prolonged slumps. I don't care what the numbers say, I want Lind's consistency over the month of random homers from Francisco.

[Michael Bradley]

According to AA, Gibbons acted on his own as far as lineups down the stretch. Whether that's true or not is anyone's guess, since Alex usually isn't one to throw someone under the bus, but it's entirely possible that Alex views Fat Juan entirely differently than Gibbons does.

I'm not saying I want Francisco starting (I don't) but I am getting a sneaking suspicion that's where we are heading.

[dagger]

Basically, this organization is setting us up for a potential cluster@q

1. They are a fourth place team in a division that should be significantly tougher next year as Boston and New York get healthy and add help through free agency.

2. They are likely to lose major league talent in LF, CF and lose the team's closer.

3. The budget is likely to be no more than last season, if that, and with the recent fall of the C$, it's possible whatever money AA thinks he has now to work with will be trimmed back further.

4. Worst of all, ownership may wish to maintain a fig leaf of competition by retaining Bautista, Encarnacion, etc to keep TV ratings and ticket sales up, even though the loss of talent at other positions suggests that the team should trade marketable bats in particular to accelerate a rebuild.

It seems to portend a season in the 70-75 win range with a lot of unhappiness for fans, players, and management. And some considerable trade value will be squandered in the name of staying mediocre but occasionally exciting.

I hope I'm wrong, but we're 1-2 years away from having the position player talent in the high minors needed to compensate for losses like Melky in particular. Therefore, a losing record in 2015 seems like the most probable outcome until we see evidence of how AA might add talent other than by substituting stiffs for reasonable talent.

[Randle McMurphy]

According to AA, Gibbons acted on his own as far as lineups down the stretch. Whether that's true or not is anyone's guess, since Alex usually isn't one to throw someone under the bus, but it's entirely possible that Alex views Fat Juan entirely differently than Gibbons does.

I'd be more prone to trust Gibbons over Anthopoulos in their talks with the media for obvious reasons.

[dagger]

Beeston said on Blair's show that AA will be back and he himself will be around as long as Rogers wants him. Argh!

He also said the budget is going up, but didn't say by how much

[spykelee]

If Juan Francisco is on this team in any meaningful way next year, I will.... I dunno, do something, or something.

[Randle McMurphy]

Beeston said on Blair's show that AA will be back and he himself will be around as long as Rogers wants him. Argh!

He also said the budget is going up, but didn't say by how much

That could all turn out to be true, but I don't believe a word he says about anything.

[Kevin Willis]

I am glad we didn't make the trade looking at Detroit and Oakland getting bounced and backing into the playoffs.