Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons

[lilfishi22]

Hmmm. He averaged 6.8 fouls per 36. That's actually a bit of a problem.

Yeah I was going to mention that. Pretty much any big man who can block shots without fouling is unique but there are maybe less than a handful of those guys who can do that.

I love everyone's citation to stats per 36 min. Keep this in mind. Last year there were more than 500 players that matriculated through the NBA and there were 16 who averaged 36 minutes or more per game. To my way of thinking using stats per 36 min is artificial and misleading.

As for Len, if he is good enough to play 30 mpg and he fouls out of every game - I''ll take that as a huge step in his development.

Wasn't too concerned with the actual per36 stat. More that he still hasn't shown any uniqueness in his defensive plays. He plays maybe a little more grounded than other C's but that's more than likely because he's less mobile and less athletic. That could be from his injuries which he was rehabbing last year but once again, the ability to contest/block/defense without fouling is not easy and those who are capable of this skill is usually in the top 5 defensive big in the league.

[lilfishi22]

You're probably not too far off on average, but I think Goodwin will see minutes before Z Dragic does and both Plumlee and Len will likely get a few more minutes than you have there. It is only 38 minutes and I do not think Markeiff will average 10 minutes/game at the center spot.

I'd be really interested to see Z and Goodwin go at it in practice. It will really tell us a lot about where they're at in terms of NBA development. If Z can defend and score on Goodwin, then it tells us Goodwin is not quite ready for consistent minutes yet. If the opposite occurs, it means Z was brought in primarily for non-basketball reasons and is not ready to contribute yet.

Either way, there are only spot minutes and they'll split it between the two depending on how they go in practice.

[JJ13]

Shots fired from Boogie...looks like it might not have just been the Kings FO that didn't want IT there

Jason Jones: DeMarcus Cousins on PG changes: "it’s been incredible. It’s been a smooth transition. The ball is moving a lot better. It’s not stuck in one place. It’s not being overdribbled by anybody on the floor". Twitter @mr_jasonjones - See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm#sthash.OyKyLkLQ.dpuf

[lilfishi22]

Shots fired from Boogie...looks like it might not have just been the Kings FO that didn't want IT there

Jason Jones: DeMarcus Cousins on PG changes: "it’s been incredible. It’s been a smooth transition. The ball is moving a lot better. It’s not stuck in one place. It’s not being overdribbled by anybody on the floor". Twitter @mr_jasonjones - See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm#sthash.OyKyLkLQ.dpuf

lol I'm guess we won't have much chance at bringing in Boogie if IT is still on the roster then hey

[JDLAW]

Yeah I was going to mention that. Pretty much any big man who can block shots without fouling is unique but there are maybe less than a handful of those guys who can do that.

I love everyone's citation to stats per 36 min. Keep this in mind. Last year there were more than 500 players that matriculated through the NBA and there were 16 who averaged 36 minutes or more per game. To my way of thinking using stats per 36 min is artificial and misleading.

As for Len, if he is good enough to play 30 mpg and he fouls out of every game - I''ll take that as a huge step in his development.

Wasn't too concerned with the actual per36 stat. More that he still hasn't shown any uniqueness in his defensive plays. He plays maybe a little more grounded than other C's but that's more than likely because he's less mobile and less athletic. That could be from his injuries which he was rehabbing last year but once again, the ability to contest/block/defense without fouling is not easy and those who are capable of this skill is usually in the top 5 defensive big in the league.

I think we'll ring Len will be very mobile and athletic, especially for his size. I believe we saw glimpses of that last year, but he was still playing in pain toward the end of the year. I understand from camp that is all gone and he is looking very good. Both players and mgt have made positive comments. I would just write off last year.

[kennydorglas]

Shots fired from Boogie...looks like it might not have just been the Kings FO that didn't want IT there

Jason Jones: DeMarcus Cousins on PG changes: "it’s been incredible. It’s been a smooth transition. The ball is moving a lot better. It’s not stuck in one place. It’s not being overdribbled by anybody on the floor". Twitter @mr_jasonjones - See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm#sthash.OyKyLkLQ.dpuf

Boogie describing himself kkkkkkkkk

[bwgood77]

I see the minutes going like this,

Bledsoe, 30ming, Thomas, 24minpg
Dragic, 32minpg, Dragic, 12minpg
Tucker, 26minpg, Green, 22minpg
Morris, 28minpg, Morris, 22minpg
Plumlee, 22minpg, Len, 16minpg

Kind of during the regular season.
I guess, Goodwin, Warren and Tolliver could get some minutes, Randolph is just there and Ennis is not going to get any minutes unless someone get injured.

You think Zoran is going to play 12 minutes a game in the nba? It's kind of crazy you sometimes seem to be harsh on guys in college (TJ Warren) to some extent yet a guy like Zoran can integrate into the NBA? TJ Warren is probably MUCH more ready to make nba contributions than Zoran. I don't think Zoran is ready for more than garbage minutes at this point.

[bwgood77]

Hmmm. He averaged 6.8 fouls per 36. That's actually a bit of a problem.

Yeah I was going to mention that. Pretty much any big man who can block shots without fouling is unique but there are maybe less than a handful of those guys who can do that.

I love everyone's citation to stats per 36 min. Keep this in mind. Last year there were more than 500 players that matriculated through the NBA and there were 16 who averaged 36 minutes or more per game. To my way of thinking using stats per 36 min is artificial and misleading.

As for Len, if he is good enough to play 30 mpg and he fouls out of every game - I''ll take that as a huge step in his development.

Well, per 36 is relevant just for purproses in a certain context...they could be really useful for many of our players considering our depth. People focus on what stats guys can get running down our lineup, but that obviously is going to be largely dependent on the minutes they get. A good way to compare how they are doing relatively speaking, is looking at per-36 numbers, as long as you also account that some guys get better stats simply because they play bench units more often, etc.

[bwgood77]

I do think he is going to play 5-10minpg as a Center with Marcus next to him as a PF.
It depends on Len, but you got such depth in the perimeter that you will probably play smallball a lot.
Zoran is way more ready to play than Archie and he fits a role, slasher off the bench that can hit from outside, rebound, cut, play in transition and play smart and defense, he is a energetic guy that is going to play hard even if you give him small minutes, I'm not sure about Archie, and I do like him.

There is a good chance Tolliver gets some minutes too, particularly if the guards end up needing more space to operate and miss Frye.

[SunsFanSSOL]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Isaiah_Thomas/status/517503415211929600[/tweet]

Of course he has to respond...

[JJ13]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Isaiah_Thomas/status/517503415211929600[/tweet]

Of course he has to respond...

Wonder if that's the first he's heard about it...must have been confused why he didn't get love from Sac, looks like it was Boogie all along

[bwgood77]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Isaiah_Thomas/status/517503415211929600[/tweet]

Of course he has to respond...

Wonder if that's the first he's heard about it...must have been confused why he didn't get love from Sac, looks like it was Boogie all along

Honestly though, if Thomas didn't hear directly from Boogie that he needs to pass more, than it's kind of BS for Boogie to have complained to mgmt. That's just not a good teammate. No wonder their chemistry sucks and if Boogie is that kind of guy, that kind of sucks.

Ultimately, players need to be able to communicate or the team won't have any chance of being successful.

[sdballer]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Isaiah_Thomas/status/517503415211929600[/tweet]

Of course he has to respond...

Wonder if that's the first he's heard about it...must have been confused why he didn't get love from Sac, looks like it was Boogie all along

Honestly though, if Thomas didn't hear directly from Boogie that he needs to pass more, than it's kind of BS for Boogie to have complained to mgmt. That's just not a good teammate. No wonder their chemistry sucks and if Boogie is that kind of guy, that kind of sucks.

Ultimately, players need to be able to communicate or the team won't have any chance of being successful.

It was multiple guys. There was a heated team meeting late in the year that many suspect was the team confronting IT about his play style and there was obvious tension between IT and most of the starters as the year went on.

[bwgood77]

It was multiple guys. There was a heated team meeting late in the year that many suspect was the team confronting IT about his play style and there was obvious tension between IT and most of the starters as the year went on.

Interesting. Sounds like bad chemistry. But if he doesn't look to get others involved that is a problem but also odd since he got six assists. Though I do remember Webber had similar complaints about Iverson even though Iverson usually had quite a few assists. Some guys don't initiate ball movement and dribble too much of the clock out and only pass late on the shot clock.

He might be better as a sixth man, but he needs to pass to guys like Green and Warren or Len if he is playing with them.

[lilfishi22]

It was multiple guys. There was a heated team meeting late in the year that many suspect was the team confronting IT about his play style and there was obvious tension between IT and most of the starters as the year went on.

Interesting. Sounds like bad chemistry. But if he doesn't look to get others involved that is a problem but also odd since he got six assists. Though I do remember Webber had similar complaints about Iverson even though Iverson usually had quite a few assists. Some guys don't initiate ball movement and dribble too much of the clock out and only pass late on the shot clock.

He might be better as a sixth man, but he needs to pass to guys like Green and Warren or Len if he is playing with them.

There are the PG's who get their assists from setting up plays and putting defenders out of position and team mates into position for easy baskets like Nash and CP3. Those are the pure PG's.

Then there are the PG's who also set up plays but do so by being an individual offensive threat like Rose and Lillard. These are the triple threat PG's.

Then you have the SG's in the PG body. That's AI and IT. THese guys get a lot of their assists by trying to score and handing it off out of desperation when they can't draw the foul but they aren't actively looking for the assist. Credit to those guys though for finding the open player when they get stuck but it's very different to guys above who know exactly what they are doing when they have the ball in their hands.

[SunsFanSSOL]

“Isaiah was a really good player for us and a great part of the community,” D’Alessandro told media members Saturday afternoon. “This is not about Isaiah, it’s about trying to put together a chemistry and a way that we can kind of play going forward.”

http://cowbellkingdom.com/sacramento-ki ... Dn48v.dpuf

Sounds like Isaiah was a bad apple.

[BurningHeart]

The last page of this thread is exactly why I don't want "Boogie" nowhere near this team.

Let. Him. Be. Somebody. Else's. Headache.

[bwgood77]

I don't think he was necessarily a bad apple, but that he was not the guy you want to be the lead guard on your team, but a sixth man spark off the bench.

Unfortunately for us, our second unit is so strong, I'd like good ball movement all around with all of our second unit or bench guys and mixes we have on the court at all time, so it may not work on our team.

But I don't want to make conclusions on any of this at this point.

He likely would be a perfect player or sixth man on a team with great starters but a bad bench, like Indy of the last couple of years.

Or others. I don't feel like thinking of them but at some point I will do an exercise of going through teams to think of what would be future potential trade candidates that would benefit both teams, particularly if we want to keep Green and especially if we want to keep Ennis.

[SunsFanSSOL]

I don't think he was necessarily a bad apple, but that he was not the guy you want to be the lead guard on your team, but a sixth man spark off the bench.

Unfortunately for us, our second unit is so strong, I'd like good ball movement all around with all of our second unit or bench guys and mixes we have on the court at all time, so it may not work on our team.

But I don't want to make conclusions on any of this at this point.

He likely would be a perfect player or sixth man on a team with great starters but a bad bench, like Indy of the last couple of years.

Or others. I don't feel like thinking of them but at some point I will do an exercise of going through teams to think of what would be future potential trade candidates that would benefit both teams, particularly if we want to keep Green and especially if we want to keep Ennis.

But the problem with that is he's never going to be satisfied by just by being a spark plug off the bench. He legitimately thinks he's a top 5 point guard and will be an all-star one day, hell he probably thinks he's deserving of an all-star spot now. Sure, he's fine right now with coming off the bench (although he says if that's the case he's going to need big minutes and to close out games) but from all the interviews I've heard from him I think he believes he will be a starter on this team eventually. Good thing his contract is reasonable as I can see a team like the Lakers, Mavs, Knicks, Pacers, Pistons, Heat, or Rockets being interested in him in a bigger role. I can see him being movable if Ennis or Goodwin emerge in the next 2 years or so. I think if we re-sign Green then it's telling that Thomas's time here will be short-lived.

[bwgood77]

But the problem with that is he's never going to be satisfied by just by being a spark plug off the bench. He legitimately thinks he's a top 5 point guard and will be an all-star one day, hell he probably thinks he's deserving of an all-star spot now. Sure, he's fine right now with coming off the bench (although he says if that's the case he's going to need big minutes and to close out games) but from all the interviews I've heard from him I think he believes he will be a starter on this team eventually. Good thing his contract is reasonable as I can see a team like the Lakers, Mavs, Knicks, Pacers, Pistons, Heat, or Rockets being interested in him in a bigger role. I can see him being movable if Ennis or Goodwin emerge in the next 2 years or so. I think if we re-sign Green then it's telling that Thomas's time here will be short-lived.

I think that is possible, and maybe probable, but I don't want to jump to conclusions before the season starts. He may be another guy that loves the chemistry, team, etc. Likely not, and then we can assess trade options which could very likely be a good thing, because I think he has a good contract for what he can provide a team that needs a bench and maybe a good backup pg, and if nothing else we get a prospect and/or a good pick. But until that happens he is going to be someone who will want to prove he deserves it, so he will likely play at a high level and only help us.

And if Hornacek coaches him up to be a better team player and facilitator early in the shot clock or a phenomenal pick and roll player maybe it isn't a problem.

Ultimately we don't need to jump to conclusions until we see at least a month of play. Your statements sound like legit statements a couple of months from now IF this happens. We have seen Hornacek do magic with guys who haven't done anything so what can he do with a guy who has displayed obvious talent already. If he realizes that perhaps he needs to improve on getting other players involved earlier, then maybe he works on that. Lets just wait before we jump to conclusions before we have even started the preseason.