Training Camp

[Invictus88]

I will always give joe d credit for his draft the last few years. Jerebko, singler, monroe, drummond, kcp, knight, middleton. thats fukn sick

but on the flip side he traded away Knight and Middleton and his inability to hire a real coach and stick with them will most likely mean we lose Monroe.

he was a good drafter though. No arguments here.

Very true. no argument there brother, but its safe to say joe should just be a piston draft scout for the rest of his career

Monroe and Drummond were both gifts in every sense of the word. They were simply way too valuable to be available when we were selecting. Everyone was shocked they slid to us and we as fans were falling over ourselves as it was happening in the forums. (You can check this to verify it if you want). There wasn't any sort of skill in scouting needed. So I don't give JoeD any credit for those two picks.

If you take away Monroe and Drummond from that list you have:
Jerebko, Singler, KCP, Knight, Middleton.

That's not a very inspiring list of people. None of them should be starting on a good basketball team. The jury is still out on KCP.

Conveniently left off the list in the first quote were absolute flops:
Mateen Cleaves, Rodney White, Darko Milicic

A slew of journeymen who never developed to their potential and were never more than (grossly overpaid) role players:
Amir, Austin Daye, Brian Cardinal, Carlos Delfino, Maxiell, Stuckey

And a ton of never-were players:
Walter Sharpe, Alex Acker, DaJuan Summers, Kim English, Vernon Macklin, Glyniadakis, Checkh Samb, Will Blaylock, Peyton Siva

Okur and Prince were likely the best picks Dumars has made in his career as a GM as they exceeded the value of their draft position. The most recent of which was selected in 2002. Afflalo would be added to this list but Dumars later gave him away for free to the Nuggets.

Two picks out of 14 years as a GM doesn't make a good GM. It makes a bad one.

This doesn't even take into account any of the horrible signings this guy made of players who he thought were good and squandered away all of our monetary resources.

Keep this guy away from any sort of talent evaluation role. It's really scary just how bad he really is. It's even scarier that some people still try to find ways of spinning this in a positive manner.

[Dirtgrain]

Monroe and Drummond were both gifts in every sense of the word.

No, "gift" does not apply at all. None of the GMs drafting before Detroit were thinking, "Let's give Detroit a gift." There were big questions about both Monroe and Drummond--BIG questions. Don't forget that. Drummond had a relatively crappy year at Connecticut that suggested that he might be bust-worthy (his motor and drive were questioned). Mornroe didn't dominate at Georgetown, either, and his skills were weak in some areas--again, seemed he might be bust-worthy. I wish people would stop rewriting history like this.

They were simply way too valuable to be available when we were selecting.

Not at that time--after the fact.

Everyone was shocked they slid to us . . .

I was not shocked that Monroe was available. Drummond seemed like a pipe-dream because of his measurements, and all that high-school hype--which we here often get sucked up in. But one of us here predicted that we would get him (Jodi?).

. . . and we as fans were falling over ourselves as it was happening in the forums. (You can check this to verify it if you want). There wasn't any sort of skill in scouting needed.

We are not the barometer--it's GMs and risks they are willing to take that need to be accounted for (Dumars took a risk, but I acknowledge that it's a risk that's a bit easier to take at 9 than at position 2--but Dumars was then seemingly already on the hot seat, so it was still a relative risk for him). Again, Drummond's production in College was a huge question mark. Some were saying--before and after we drafted him--that he couldn't get defensive rebounds, that he had big question marks on defense, that his post-up was limited (it still is to some degree, but we see potential), that his free throw flaws were maybe too big of a weakness.

So I don't give JoeD any credit for those two picks.

Not logical. Overlooking his successes when evaluating him is a flaw.

[DTP]

but on the flip side he traded away Knight and Middleton and his inability to hire a real coach and stick with them will most likely mean we lose Monroe.

he was a good drafter though. No arguments here.

Very true. no argument there brother, but its safe to say joe should just be a piston draft scout for the rest of his career

Monroe and Drummond were both gifts in every sense of the word. They were simply way too valuable to be available when we were selecting. Everyone was shocked they slid to us and we as fans were falling over ourselves as it was happening in the forums. (You can check this to verify it if you want). There wasn't any sort of skill in scouting needed. So I don't give JoeD any credit for those two picks.

If you take away Monroe and Drummond from that list you have:
Jerebko, Singler, KCP, Knight, Middleton.

That's not a very inspiring list of people. None of them should be starting on a good basketball team. The jury is still out on KCP.

Conveniently left off the list in the first quote were absolute flops:
Mateen Cleaves, Rodney White, Darko Milicic

A slew of journeymen who never developed to their potential and were never more than (grossly overpaid) role players:
Amir, Austin Daye, Brian Cardinal, Carlos Delfino, Maxiell, Stuckey

And a ton of never-were players:
Walter Sharpe, Alex Acker, DaJuan Summers, Kim English, Vernon Macklin, Glyniadakis, Checkh Samb, Will Blaylock, Peyton Siva

Okur and Prince were likely the best picks Dumars has made in his career as a GM as they exceeded the value of their draft position. The most recent of which was selected in 2002. Afflalo would be added to this list but Dumars later gave him away for free to the Nuggets.

Two picks out of 14 years as a GM doesn't make a good GM. It makes a bad one.

This doesn't even take into account any of the horrible signings this guy made of players who he thought were good and squandered away all of our monetary resources.

Keep this guy away from any sort of talent evaluation role. It's really scary just how bad he really is. It's even scarier that some people still try to find ways of spinning this in a positive manner.

Wasn't Amir a 60th pick? Now is a full-time starter for a playoff team....how in the hell has he not reached his potential? Delfino and Stuckey have both had solid careers as well....maybe disappointments in your mind because your expectations of them were too high but neither never ever have been grossly overpaid or busts at all. All of the never-were players were second rounders, not really expected to ever be much.

Outside of the huge flops in White, Milicic, and Cleaves....Dumars has been a very solid drafter.

[whitehops]

I think a big part of players panning out that rarely gets spoken about is the influence of coaching (especially later picks). a good coach can teach these players to play the 'right' way and that will maximize their abilities and extend their careers. an example I like to use is popovich with the spurs. they are always in the playoffs and haven't had a pick higher than 20th in over ten years (technically the pacers drafted kawhi 15th overall in 2011). i'm gonna write a list of players they've drafted and while none of them are superstars they were/are solid players that are starting or are reliable contributors, which is awesome if you can get that from a late pick. list:

- manu ginobili, 1999 (56th overall)
- tony parker, 2001 (28th overall)
- tiago splitter, 2007 (28th overall)
- George hill, 2008 (26th overall)
- dejuan blair, 2009 (37th overall)

they also constantly pick up players that are either washed up (Stephen Jackson) or were never any good (danny green) on other teams and turn them into good contributors.

I know it's not basketball but the patriots do this also, they always trade back in drafts knowing that they can coach up the players they draft. tom brady himself was a sixth round pick. it's not that he was a superstar that was passed up 198 times, he was a sixth round pick that was coached up and became a legend. obviously brady deserves a little credit lol but it's not like if he was drafted to any team he would've been great. he could just as easily have been in the league for four years and then on the streets if he wasn't in the situation he was in.


there really hasn't been much of a history of SVG coaching up young players, although that might be partly because he hasn't ever had high picks to coach up. in Orlando they rarely had first round picks and if they were they were in the late twenties. hopefully we can see how he does with KCP and Dinwiddie.


TL:DR? a player's career exceeding their draft position might have as much or more to do with coaching as it does drafting well.

[tmorgan]

Joe D was a very good drafter, meaning his scouts did their jobs well and he made the right final decision a vast majority of the time (exceptions: Cleaves, Daye and White). A few others didn't work out so well, but I think Dumars was pretty much on top of the draft most of the time, particularly with late 1sts and many 2nds.

Trades? Free Agency? Complete incompetence, outside of pulling in Rasheed late in 2004 for a very reasonable price.

We were absolutely horrible at developing rookie talent for a very long time as well, as many of our former picks floundered or weren't used here and went to to much more prominent roles after being dealt.

[ImHeisenberg]

I like how I'm reading SVG is just running these guys ragged, with longer practices than any of the last 3 or 4 coaches ever ran.

He's going to whip this team into the best shape it can be in, considering where it was when he inherited it.

[engelbert321]

I like how I'm reading SVG is just running these guys ragged, with longer practices than any of the last 3 or 4 coaches ever ran.

He's going to whip this team into the best shape it can be in, considering where it was when he inherited it.

Good. Erase all the loser mentality this team have

[Kilo]

Monroe taking the QO could benefit us this season in another way - the attitude of Josh Smith. Because if MOnroe had signed on here long term and won the starting PF role it would have relegated Smoove to the back-up bench role the rest of his three year career here and he could sulk and demand out, however by Moose signing the QO, Smith could see his coming off the bench this year as a short term thing, and play the good soldier knowing he'll be starting the final two years here when Monroe bolts, and if Monroe stays Smith could be traded into a starting situation in the off-season .

If you buy any of the pre-season camp fluff pieces, Smith seems to be buying into the SVG system, working hard, taking pride in defense-first, and looking to take on a leadership role. Accepting a bench role and playing the good solider will go a long way in the leadership aspect, so a year from now when he's back starting he'd be seen as making the sacrifice for the good of the team and respected in the lockerroom for it.

[Neptune]

I'm hearing my dude Smith is out there playing hard in camp. That's good news. I hope our preseason games show on League Pass so I can see what multiple rotations SVG has in store.

[BadMofoPimp]

I think a big part of players panning out that rarely gets spoken about is the influence of coaching (especially later picks). a good coach can teach these players to play the 'right' way and that will maximize their abilities and extend their careers. an example I like to use is popovich with the spurs. they are always in the playoffs and haven't had a pick higher than 20th in over ten years (technically the pacers drafted kawhi 15th overall in 2011). i'm gonna write a list of players they've drafted and while none of them are superstars they were/are solid players that are starting or are reliable contributors, which is awesome if you can get that from a late pick. list:

- manu ginobili, 1999 (56th overall)
- tony parker, 2001 (28th overall)
- tiago splitter, 2007 (28th overall)
- George hill, 2008 (26th overall)
- dejuan blair, 2009 (37th overall)

they also constantly pick up players that are either washed up (Stephen Jackson) or were never any good (danny green) on other teams and turn them into good contributors.

I know it's not basketball but the patriots do this also, they always trade back in drafts knowing that they can coach up the players they draft. tom brady himself was a sixth round pick. it's not that he was a superstar that was passed up 198 times, he was a sixth round pick that was coached up and became a legend. obviously brady deserves a little credit lol but it's not like if he was drafted to any team he would've been great. he could just as easily have been in the league for four years and then on the streets if he wasn't in the situation he was in.


there really hasn't been much of a history of SVG coaching up young players, although that might be partly because he hasn't ever had high picks to coach up. in Orlando they rarely had first round picks and if they were they were in the late twenties. hopefully we can see how he does with KCP and Dinwiddie.


TL:DR? a player's career exceeding their draft position might have as much or more to do with coaching as it does drafting well.

You see, even San Antonio doesn't have great drafts every year. Joe D has had just as solid draft picks late in the draft as San Antonio. Difference is, they have Popovich while the Pistons had a revolving door of bad coaching choices all because of Dumars.

[BadMofoPimp]

I like how I'm reading SVG is just running these guys ragged, with longer practices than any of the last 3 or 4 coaches ever ran.

He's going to whip this team into the best shape it can be in, considering where it was when he inherited it.

This is the staple of Stan Van Gundy's work ethic. He is brutal in his conditioning before the season starts. He does let up on them during the season, but may stay on them being this is such a young developing team that needs a lot of work. But, his summers and pre-season are brutal.

[russkopp]

Has anyone seen Smooves quotes from the Det News on how he's never had a teammate demand he (smith) get traded or else he wouldn't sign like the moose rumors said? Smith then goes on to say, I wish greg the best but if it wasn't true I feel like that man would come to me and tell me face to face.

I don't know how, but I think Smith has passed Monroe for me in terms of who I want on this team. If SVG wasn't the coach...different story

[russkopp]

"I think if things aren't true, I think the other person who people are kinda throwing under the bus, as a teammate and a man, should come to that individual and let him know that had nothing to do with him," Smith said.

Sorry, here's smiths quote.

[tmorgan]

Caveat: The media does like to make a story, so this might not be true.

That said, if Monroe hasn't even spoken to Smith about this story, it's a problem. Smith seems to think there might have been something to it, and it seems like the two aren't really even talking to each other much. That's going to be an issue.

With Monroe likely out the door and Smith here for another three years in all likelihood, Josh does need to step up and become a veteran leader. As I've said in previous posts, he hasn't shown any real leadership skills in the past, but there's no time like the present.

[DetroitSho]

Has anyone seen Smooves quotes from the Det News on how he's never had a teammate demand he (smith) get traded or else he wouldn't sign like the moose rumors said? Smith then goes on to say, I wish greg the best but if it wasn't true I feel like that man would come to me and tell me face to face.

I don't know how, but I think Smith has passed Monroe for me in terms of who I want on this team. If SVG wasn't the coach...different story

Moose coulda started a bogus about Smith having an affair with a porcupine, and that still wouldn't be enough to make me feel like I want him on this team over Moose. Did you see the epic proportions of stupidity last year?

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[russkopp]

I saw the stupidity but SVG wasn't on the sideline then. Josh has never had a coach like Stan who also happens to be the GM. If the stupidly sticks around, josh...will not.

[Kilo]

SVG saying Bynum is WAY behind Jennings and Augustin, how he only practiced one hour and then got hurt whereas the other two guards have about 30 hours of practice time not counting the pre-season game. I wonder if he's laying the groundwork to trade/cut Will, I guess it would depend largely on Dinwiddie and where his health is at.

Mitchell is surely a goner, given the depth at PF we have here, so it would also depend on how the non-roster guys are looking in practice - Cook or more likely Thabeet given the uncertainty around Gray's health.