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Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons

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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#761 » by Zelaznyrules » Wed Oct 8, 2014 8:16 pm

phrazbit wrote:Just to be clear, I am not saying the Morris deal is a killer. Yes, IMO when Marcus Morris' contract is figured in we overpaid for the pairing, but not by some crazy amount. This is not like Beasley where we paid a guy who was worth less than the league minimum. I only started talking about this again because of the comparison to Faried, who I think anyone outside of the Suns board would say is a blatantly superior player. And that the twins were supposedly willing to take a discount to stay together, and its really hard to paint this as a discount.


You suggest we turn elsewhere to get a more reasonable view of Markieff and Faried but I promise you, if you turn elsewhere you'll find strong endorsements regarding the twins new contracts. Every show I've watched or listened to that's brought it up raves about how great of value their deal is.
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#762 » by Kyler Murray » Wed Oct 8, 2014 9:08 pm

Watched the interviews from the scrimmage. Love the attitude Gerald is bringing, how much he appreciates his teammates, the team for giving him the chance to showcase his abilities and how he loves being in that place. Also loved the fact Len was participating in the drills despite wearing a finger splint, throwing passes to Morris.
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#763 » by RunDogGun » Wed Oct 8, 2014 9:10 pm

Jdiddy701 wrote:Wow Marcus might be a starter for us this season.. PJ coming off the bench tonight. Yes it's just preseason but it's worth talking about.

Unless PJ is hurt or sitting out tonight. Coro said PJ not guaranteed for starting spot.


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Jeff might as well try Marcus to start, which is who I thought would take the first three starts for Tucker. It might be a spot for Marcus to lose or keep. I could also see Jeff trying Green at the three to start a preseason game as well.
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#764 » by phrazbit » Wed Oct 8, 2014 9:43 pm

Unless Green is only going to play like 10 minutes a game then he is going to have to see a lot of PT at the 3 this year. The team has made it pretty clear they intend to play Thomas/Dragic/Bledsoe nearly 90 combined minutes, that leaves very little PT for the other guards on the roster. Even if you go pretty conservative in the estimations with those 3 its still hard to see more than 15 minutes remaining between all the other guards.
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#765 » by Sunsdeuce » Wed Oct 8, 2014 11:44 pm

Anyone going to make a game thread?


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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#766 » by NaturalBuns » Thu Oct 9, 2014 12:47 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:
NaturalBuns wrote:
Sunsdeuce wrote:I think a big problem for Marcus was getting the minutes. I'm probably in the minority but I think he out performed tucker when given consistent minutes. I mean he already put up practically the same numbers as tucker playing 10 minutes fewer than tucker.

I think you almost have to cut Tucker's minutes if you want development and consistent numbers from Marcus and now warren. It's also a reason I hope tucker is gone within a year/year and a half.


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Lol did the cavs game from last year not point out how important tucker was last year.

I can careless if marcus is a "better scorer"
Suns have plenty of those Dragic,Thomas,Green,Bledsoe,Markieff... Maybe warren

How about the games tucker single handedly lost games, the famous play where he didn't pass to an open teammate for an easy layup. He turnovered the ball dealing a suns loss. It goes both ways. Let's be honest this is 2014, not 1995, where almost no player plays defense. In today's nba offensive players are way more important than defensive minded players. Shoot even the rules cater to offensive players.


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The suns get more fastbreak oppurtunties with tucker in he creates chaos.
Yeah he blows plays sometimes on the fastbreak but Plumlee was the weak link offensively last year not tucker.
Missed dunks, Layups and outside maybe the first month of the 2013-2014 season his post game looked good but it rarely went in.

Plus the suns started one of the worst Staring PFs in the nba on the defensive side and rebounding.
Tucker was having games with like 10+ Rebs because Plumlee sits often and frye is a lackluster rebounder.
Plus outside Len (who may not play much) only dragic/tucker have that natural aggressiveness to take it to the opp.
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#767 » by bwgood77 » Thu Oct 9, 2014 1:02 am

ChrisInAZ wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
NavLDO wrote:I don't see how paying $5M to Marcus, a 10/4, 38% 3 pt shooting SF is an overpay, honestly. Especially considering he is versatile enough to play both SF and PF. Heck, he's bigger than Faried, so I don't see any reason he couldn't develop/succeed as a stretch 4 for us.

Faried has been given opportunities that neither Morii brother has been given. Sure, Faried looks better, but I would certainly hope he would in that he's started 150+ more games than either Morii.

I'm calling it now, that the Morii breakout this year. Especially Kieff, but if Marcus shows improvement this season, he likely may put PJ out of a job, OR, at least becomes a 6th Man of the Year candidate. i'd love to see both Morii out together at the 4 and 5 for a spell each game. I know, not likely at all, but would love to see how they do!


I'm pretty sure it's likely the twins do play at 4/5 together fairly often at times this year. I think the coaches have even talked about it.


It's going to be a tough task already for our only true PF Kief to get 36+ minutes by avoiding foul trouble. If he's also going to play the 5 on the defensive end some of the time? Good luck ...unless it's just going to be matador defense. That slam fest will be fun to watch.


I think they will try to force other teams to go small to keep up. If we ran our three pt guards with the twins (or more likely two with Green and the twins), teams would be forced to go small or they wouldn't be able to keep up with our guards. Maybe something like that won't work, and it will be tough defensively, but they've mentioned stuff like that.
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#768 » by Christine-In-AZ » Thu Oct 9, 2014 1:06 am

Generic (non-garbage time) game playing time guess. Descriptors, particularly with the forwards & centers are about defensive positions….

1.) Dragic ……….......32 (combo guard 100%)
2.) Bledsoe….…….....32 (combo guard 100%)
3.) Mk.Morris.….…...36 (30 at PF/6 at Center)
4.) Tucker………...…24 (small-combo forward)
5.) Plumlee….…….....28 (100% at Center)
********************
6.) Thomas….…….....24 (combo guard 100%)
7.) Green……….…....20 (8 at SG/12 at SF)
8.) Mc.Morris……......20 (generic forward 100%)
9.) Tolliver……….…..10 (8 at PF/2 at generic forward)
10.)Warren……………4 (small forward 100%)
11.) Len or Randolph...10 (Center 100%)

240 mins

Inactive/DNPs- Zoki, Goodwin, Ennis. Len or Randolph

This is having 11 contributors. If Jeff goes with 12 it gets even more scattered...unworkable

Our long term future is bright, but I see all kinda icky, gobble-de-goop in the near term. It’s obvious to be sure, but we’re paper thin and crazy unproven at PF and C. Unless Jeff comes up with another round of magic, it’s going to be a frustrating season of fits and starts as I see it now.

Markieff goes near LMA levels? Warren is actually a steal? Len stops breaking and plays like a high draft pick? Tolliver & Marcus fill in the Fry gap? Goran does it again? Sure! 50+ wins & the playoffs. That would be great, but I’ve serious doubts. Love the where the Suns are headed, but I don’t see a lot a promise within this coming season.
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#769 » by garycarnivals » Thu Oct 9, 2014 1:37 am

Anyone on here know that there is a game today? O_o
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#770 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Oct 9, 2014 1:45 am

Moochthemonkey wrote:1. The fact that Tucker plays defense in a league where defense is more seldom these days increases his value, not the other way around

2. Not sure where he or other players "single-handedly lost games" as basketball is a team sport but yes, he is well known for his boneheaded plays including the famous "bull in a china shop" fast-break or the "whack-a-mole" offensive put back but atleast bball IQ is something that should always improve with age. As for turnovers, Lebron James averaged twice as more than Tucker, and if you compare the stats most SFs turnover the ball more than Tucker. Mook Morris only averages .1 less than Tucker too.

3. Although I like Tucker, I still would agree with your sentiments for the most part in regards to developing TJ Warren and Mook Morris as a priority...hopefully these first 3 games can be a testament to their potential defensive abilities...as it stands though, amongst the 3-5 players who could operate at SF there simply is no better option on this team than Tucker.

Agreed. I think some posters on this board just don't like Tucker as a player and that's perfectly fine to have that opinion. But $6m for a guy who has shut down guys like James Harden before and fits well into our offensive and defensive schemes, it's an appropriate deal.
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#771 » by Kerrsed » Thu Oct 9, 2014 1:46 am

garycarnivals wrote:Anyone on here know that there is a game today? O_o


Yup, 7pm AZT! Game starts in about 20 minutes. We are playing Flamengo!


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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#772 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Oct 9, 2014 1:52 am

phrazbit wrote:
Moochthemonkey wrote:
phrazbit wrote: I also am not wild about paying someone based on the hope of them becoming something they have not shown themselves to be.


Interesting, were you not in favor of giving Bledsoe 70/5 due to the premise of his potential, especially in lieu of his knee concerns? I think the Morri deal is fair considering the same, and I don't think they have been injured once in the three seasons they've played thus far (knock on wood).


I've seen the signs the Bledsoe is a star on both ends of the court, and there have been a ton of guys with the same knee injury that went onto have no further issues. Those two deals are nothing alike IMO. Bledsoe has proven that he can make an enormous difference to the success of the team. On the other hand Marcus Morris has done nothing to show he is better than a replacement level player. I am not saying he is horrible, but he does not bring much to the table outside of a decent three point shot, and he is pretty bad defensively and on the glass. If Marcus were not Markieff's brother there is no way he'd get a 4 year deal... or 5 mil a year.

I'm not high on Mook's deal but I don't think it's necessarily an overpay. Or you could easily see it as, we're paying Mook a little bit more for Kieff to sign for a little bit less. That's a good outcome in my books because the pressure is now on Mook to play up to his salary and prove he's worth more with his next deal.
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#773 » by MathiasPW » Thu Oct 9, 2014 1:37 pm

ChrisInAZ wrote:Generic (non-garbage time) game playing time guess. Descriptors, particularly with the forwards & centers are about defensive positions….

1.) Dragic ……….......32 (combo guard 100%)
2.) Bledsoe….…….....32 (combo guard 100%)
3.) Mk.Morris.….…...36 (30 at PF/6 at Center)
4.) Tucker………...…24 (small-combo forward)
5.) Plumlee….…….....28 (100% at Center)
********************
6.) Thomas….…….....24 (combo guard 100%)
7.) Green……….…....20 (8 at SG/12 at SF)
8.) Mc.Morris……......20 (generic forward 100%)
9.) Tolliver……….…..10 (8 at PF/2 at generic forward)
10.)Warren……………4 (small forward 100%)
11.) Len or Randolph...10 (Center 100%)

240 mins



This might be the initial plan. But Hornacek has made it clear he intends to play who is hot. He did that on the game against Flamengo already after IT missed his first few shots and sat all the way to the end of the 2Q.

I think our playing times will vary tremendously across the season, depending on how each player is performing.
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#774 » by JTrain » Thu Oct 9, 2014 3:10 pm

ChrisInAZ wrote:Generic (non-garbage time) game playing time guess. Descriptors, particularly with the forwards & centers are about defensive positions….

1.) Dragic ……….......32 (combo guard 100%)
2.) Bledsoe….…….....32 (combo guard 100%)
3.) Mk.Morris.….…...36 (30 at PF/6 at Center)
4.) Tucker………...…24 (small-combo forward)
5.) Plumlee….…….....28 (100% at Center)
********************
6.) Thomas….…….....24 (combo guard 100%)
7.) Green……….…....20 (8 at SG/12 at SF)
8.) Mc.Morris……......20 (generic forward 100%)
9.) Tolliver……….…..10 (8 at PF/2 at generic forward)
10.)Warren……………4 (small forward 100%)
11.) Len or Randolph...10 (Center 100%)

240 mins

Inactive/DNPs- Zoki, Goodwin, Ennis. Len or Randolph


We're pretty close.

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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#775 » by Frank Lee » Thu Oct 9, 2014 4:19 pm

ChrisInAZ wrote:.......Our long term future is bright, but I see all kinda icky, gobble-de-goop in the near term. It’s obvious to be sure, but we’re paper thin and crazy unproven at PF and C. Unless Jeff comes up with another round of magic, it’s going to be a frustrating season of fits and starts as I see it now.

Markieff goes near LMA levels? Warren is actually a steal? Len stops breaking and plays like a high draft pick? Tolliver & Marcus fill in the Fry gap? Goran does it again? Sure! 50+ wins & the playoffs. That would be great, but I’ve serious doubts. Love the where the Suns are headed, but I don’t see a lot a promise within this coming season......


have to agree with this. There may be a light at the end of the tunnel, but its awfully dark in the middle of it.


I figure we are one or two trades away from bringing it all together. I'm sure that Babby and McDo are fully aware of our weaknesses. Trouble is, nobody is going to shake up their team mid season and dump a quality Big unless they have bagged their playoff chances. Could that be Indy? Could that be Atl ? It already is Detroit. Or may be a disgruntling Big demands a trade? (Hello Pekovic) I see more of a 'take our lumps' season and a move made after the draft pick order is established. If the fLakers cooperate and hand us a 6 or 7 pick, we could offer up a fairly decent rebuild package.
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#776 » by JTrain » Thu Oct 9, 2014 5:01 pm

Four things you guys are hopefully underestimating:

1. The genius of Hornacek
2. The bench spark of IT
3. The utility of Tolliver
4. The improvement of Len

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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#777 » by RaisingArizona » Thu Oct 9, 2014 5:10 pm

50 wins. Book it.
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Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#778 » by Sunsdeuce » Thu Oct 9, 2014 6:26 pm

@WojYahooNBA: Michael Beasley is leaving Memphis Grizzlies camp, signing a deal in China, agent Jared Karnes tells Yahoo Sports.

@WojYahooNBA: Beasley is signing with the Shanghai Sharks, owned by Yao Ming.


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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#779 » by ShawnBronald » Thu Oct 9, 2014 6:27 pm

Sunsdeuce wrote:@WojYahooNBA: Michael Beasley is leaving Memphis Grizzlies camp, signing a deal in China, agent Jared Karnes tells Yahoo Sports.


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[tweet]https://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA/status/520279288407687168[/tweet]
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Re: Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons 

Post#780 » by Miklo » Thu Oct 9, 2014 6:52 pm

Sunsdeuce wrote:@WojYahooNBA: Michael Beasley is leaving Memphis Grizzlies camp, signing a deal in China, agent Jared Karnes tells Yahoo Sports.

@WojYahooNBA: Beasley is signing with the Shanghai Sharks, owned by Yao Ming.


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Why does it not surprise me to see this guy pull a Starbury?

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