Re: RealGM Top 100 List #39

Post #41 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:32 am

Just for fun, Kevin McHale v. Larry Nance

McHale 12 years 31.0mpg
11.4reb 2.7ast 3.0to 27.8pts per 100 possessions @ .605ts%
10.9 2.4 2.8 27.6 @ .618 for playoffs
3x1st All-Defense, 2x 2nd All-Defense

Nance 12 years (+1 partial) 33.4mpg
11.6reb 3.8ast 2.7to 24.8pts per 100 possessions @ .586ts%
11.2reb 3.4ast 2.3to 22.5 @ .578 ts% for playoffs
1x1st All-Defense, 2x 2nd All Defense

Pretty comparable with McHale the more efficient and Nance as the better passer; McHale needs post feeds while Nance is a better off ball and open court player. Still, the edge goes to McHale for the scoring.

Post #42 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:38 am

Dwight Howard -- penbeast0

Reggie Miller -- Doctor MJ

Dikembe Mutombo -- Jaivl

Sam Jones -- DQuinn1575

Isiah Thomas -- Basketballefan, ronnymac2

Paul Pierce -- trex_8063

ThaRegul8r · Post #43 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:39 am

Chicago76 wrote:
Basketballefan wrote:But didn't the pacers have a pretty good defense as well?

So what is Reggie's excuse for not winning any titles? I still think if he had more of an all around game maybe thigs could be different.

They had a good defense, but nowhere near the D of Detroit.

This.

Implying that the defense of Miller's Pacers and the Bad Boy Pistons were equivalent is absurd. ("Miller's teams had a pretty good defense like the Pistons did, so why didn't his team ever win?") It's irksome when people do things like this, because it makes me disregard any argument they make. If anyone has to resort to saying things that aren't true, then they must not have a legitimate point.

Chicago76 wrote:There is just no comparison. DET was just do well rounded and one guy didn't need to be the mainstay defender, scorer, distributor, rebounder, etc.

Spoiler:

Depth, defense key to Pistons’ success

CHICAGO (AP) — Scoring 100 points in the Eastern Conference finals is proving to be as difficult for the Chicago Bulls and Detroit Pistons as the Holy Grail.

It’s awfully hard to do, but if you can do it, you’ve accomplished something big.

Only once in the first five games of the best-of-seven series has a team scored 100 — when Detroit won the second game, 100-91, and Pistons coach Chuck Daly expects more of the same in Game 6 tonight.

“These games are all about the same,” Daly said. “Low scoring affairs. Every shot contested and every loose ball contested.”

Detroit took a 3-2 lead in the series Wednesday night with a 94-85 victory at the Palace at Auburn Hills.

The Pistons held Michael Jordan to 18 points, half his playoff average, and scored 24 points off 24 Chicago turnovers. Detroit set an NBA playoff record by holding the Bulls to 59 field-goal attempts, breaking the record of 61 by New Jersey against Milwaukee in 1984.

Daly again showed no hesitancy in using his bench strength. Mark Aguirre had 19 points and Isiah Thomas 17 points and 11 assists through three quarters, but neither played more than one minute in the fourth period.

With four reserves on the court for most of the final quarter, Vinnie Johnson scored 16 of his 22 points and Dennis Rodman grabbed 10 of his 14 rebounds in the period as the Pistons extended a one-point lead to nine.

“When you have the depth we have, you feel more confident and take more risks because you know if you’re not hot, someone else might be,” Johnson said.

Johnson had the hot scoring touch in the fourth period, hitting six of nine shots while Aguirre watched.

“When I left the game, VJ came in and continued right where I left off,” Aguirre said. “That’s what this team is all about.”

Aguirre, a 24-point career scorer before being traded to Detroit by Dallas, said he learned a lot from his reserve teammates.

“I try to watch how Dennis or John Salley plays an opponent, and they tell me how, too,” Aguirre said. “I’m not the greatest defensive player in the world, so I get a lot of information from Dennis. The defense this team plays is totally infectious.”

“Detroit has the best bench in the league,” Bulls coach Doug Collins said. “We didn’t have enough at the end to make a charge. It’s like they’re always throwing someone fresh at you. They have a first and third quarter team and a second and fourth quarter team.”

After the Pistons’ second consecutive title, Sam McManis wrote, “total respect previously had eluded the Pistons. Maybe in was their image. Maybe it was because they have no definitive star and they depend on such mundane areas as defense, depth and a balanced offense.”

“ ‘We’ve never depended on one guy,’ Dumars said. ‘We rely on different people doing it every night and playing defense night after night’” (The Victoria Advocate, Jun 16, 1990).

Post #44 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:41 am

Reed v Cowens v. Beaty

All three shared some things in common . . . undersized, mobile centers with good range and good defense. Reed is the strongest, Cowens the most physical, Beaty has a Bill Laimbeer/Vlade Divac rep for annoying opps with a lot of dirty/veteran tricks.

All had shortened careers, Reed played only 7 years over 20 games in a season, Cowens played 10 but with increasing missed games plus a half year attempted comeback in Milwaukee, Beaty played 12 seasons (2 as reserve) but 2 were cut short by his recurring knee injuries; it's not a coincidence that his best season (72 in Utah) came after being forced to sit out a year. Beaty is considered a step down from Reed and Cowens but seems a reasonable comp to show their strengths.

Prime numbers

Reed (67-71) 20.5ppg 13.5reb 2ast .540ts%
Cowens (72-76) 19.5ppg 15.5reb 4ast .495ts%
Beaty* (65-69) 20ppg 12reb 1.5ast .535ts%
*(using NBA numbers only)

As the numbers show, Cowens was the best passer and rebounder, but the worst shooter. Reed is slightly better than Beaty in all areas but only slightly (and the NBA had expansion in these years so Reed was playing against slightly inferior competition). Beaty has the longevity edge. Very comparable players if you consider their defensive abilities roughly equal. I didn't use Beaty's ABA years because I don't want to get into a debate about how much to discount them.

Post #45 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:42 am

ThaRegul8r wrote:.... If anyone has to resort to saying things that aren't true, then they must not have a legitimate point.

Well, you just discounted 99+% of the human race; you don't vote in political elections much either I assume.

Joao Saraiva · Post #46 » by **Joao Saraiva** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:18 am

I think Paul Pierce is an interesting choice for this spot.

He has 8 seasons above 20 PPG and 5 above 25 PPG. So he is a very good volume scorer.

He has interesting numbers in APG and RPG for a SF.

7 seasons above 6 RPG.
8 seasons above 4 APG.

6 seasons above 20 PER.
9 seasons above 57%ts.

So he's a very good all arround player, scoring and not hurting his team with his scoring, a good rebounder for his position and good playmaker.

He has also aged really well. He seems to be a slow player, but he can still go to the basket and get his points with efficiency. Really great to watch.

Likely candidate for spot: Isiah Thomas.
5 seasons above 20 PPG, but only one season of those above 53%ts.
4 seasons above 10 APG, but all of them close to 4 TOPG. So yes he's a good playmaker, but stats prove he's not the best taking care of the ball.
Decent rebounder for his position.
I consider him a better defender than Pierce, by a solid margin.

He has 3 seasons above 20 PER and his WS/48 are not nearly as good as Pierce's.

I think Pierce was the better player... he also peaked higher the way I see it. Hope Pierce gets in.

Then for me it's a coin flip between Reggie Miller and Isiah.

Post #47 » by **Quotatious** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:31 am

penbeast0 wrote:Dwight Howard -- penbeast0

Reggie Miller -- Doctor MJ

Dikembe Mutombo -- Jaivl

Sam Jones -- DQuinn1575

Isiah Thomas -- Basketballefan, ronnymac2, Quotatious

Paul Pierce -- trex_8063

You missed my vote for Isiah (post #16).

Post #48 » by **trex_8063** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:46 am

Basketballefan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Basketballefan wrote:Is it even fair to vote Mutumbo here considering he was never even a top 10 player in the league?

No one is voting for Mutombo right now who thinks he was never a Top 10 player.
You need to step back from your assumptions a bit.

I would like to see evidence suggesting that he was ever clear cut top 10.

Well first off, unless you're actually top 5-7 player, top 10 is never "clear cut".......there's always ample debate for those last 3-5 places.

So here are a few tidbits to suggest Dikembe was in the debate some years (and I'm not even advocating for Deke at this spot, but I dislike the implication that it's so cut n' dry):
'94--->6th in league in DRtg, 17th in WS, 3rd in rebounds, 1st in blocks.
'95--->1st in league in rebounds and blocks, DPoY.
'97--->1st in league in rebounds and blocks, 3rd in DRtg, DPoY.
'98--->8th in league in WS, 3rd in rebounds, 1st in blocks, DPoY.
'99--->14th in league in RAPM, 7th in WS, 9th in WS/48, 1st in rebounds, 4th in blocks, 4th in DRtg.
'00--->3rd in league in RAPM, 17th in WS, 1st in rebounds, 2nd in blocks.
'01--->2nd in rebounds, 5th in blocks. DPoY.

Basketballefan · Post #49 » by **Basketballefan** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:08 am

Does anyone think Iverson deserves some serious traction by now?

Once Thomas is in it will likely be between him and Pierce for me.

Post #50 » by **trex_8063** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:15 am

Basketballefan wrote:Does anyone think Iverson deserves some serious traction by now?

Once Thomas is in it will likely be between him and Pierce for me.

I kinda want to see Pierce at the very least get in ahead of him. Generally, I'd probably want Hayes (as well as Dolph Schayes, actually) in ahead of Iverson, too. Beyond that, he's certainly in the mix for me. I don't expect him to get serious consideration here for at least 5-7 more spots, though.

SactoKingsFan · Post #51 » by **SactoKingsFan** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:28 am

Basketballefan wrote:Does anyone think Iverson deserves some serious traction by now?

Once Thomas is in it will likely be between him and Pierce for me.

Didn't have Iverson on my top 50 pre-list and my opinion of him hasn't change, so AI's not really on my radar until at least the next 8-9 players are voted in.

Sent from my LG-D800 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Sasaki · Post #52 » by **Sasaki** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:16 am

A couple people have mentioned Dikembe's longevity, but I'm really confused about that. Deke entered the league in 1991, and promptly made the All-Star team. But 2001-02 was his last year in the league when he played more than 24 mpg. After that, he spent the next several years as a backup ala Nazr Mohammed or Kurt Thomas or any one of those old defensive bigs who hang around the league for years.

So, Dikembe has 10 seasons when he's an elite player, and made the All-Star Team eight times. That's not great longevity by any stretch of the imagination. It's not bad, but at the level of players we're talking about, it's sort of meh.

Warspite · Post #53 » by **Warspite** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:45 am

Vote: Isiah Thomas

In 1988 I was sitting in a sports bar and the debate was if MJ would ever be as good as Isiah Thomas. Most didnt think so but a good vocal minority thought MJ had a chance to one day be as good as Isiah Thomas.

Its understandable that today Isiah is no longer a top 10 player of all time because today we value players based on criteria that people 30 yrs ago would laugh at. Growing up in Detroit I never understood why so many hate him. When the Sporting News named Isiah Thomas 2nd team all time I shrugged my shoulders and figured thats about right.

Isiah Thomas is the best PG outside of Magic and the 1st PG I would want on my team because I want to win. For me its more important to win than to lose and have a TS% that fits some stat geeks criteria.

ChiTown6rings · Post #54 » by **ChiTown6rings** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:03 am

Basketballefan wrote:Does anyone think Iverson deserves some serious traction by now?

Once Thomas is in it will likely be between him and Pierce for me.

He is a rather undisciplined defender, high volume shooter but for the most part was very inefficient. Don't see AI being in the top 50.

john248 · Post #55 » by **john248** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:38 am

Been fairly busy and kinda forgot about the stickied threads. Still have Miller, Pierce, and Allen in the top 40. Anyways, voting for Reggie Miler again. I forget where I left my long post about him in one of these threads. Best shooter and off-ball player ever. Created his offense, as in made space to shoot, by running off screens and getting open better than anyone in the history of the league. Volume improved in the playoffs at a scoring level similar to that of other star wings. Nothing to really write about defensively. Underrated BBIQ by being able to draw fouls, recognized situations, flopped. Remarkably consistent against any type of defense. Consistent over his long career. Great longevity. IMO, should've been voted in 8 spots ago.

john248 · Post #56 » by **john248** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:42 am

Basketballefan wrote:Does anyone think Iverson deserves some serious traction by now?

Once Thomas is in it will likely be between him and Pierce for me.

I don't think I even have Iverson in my top 50. Heck, I have Isiah somewhere in the late 40s. I might even have Nique & TMac higher, but I don't have my list on me currently.

Jaivl · Post #57 » by **Jaivl** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:59 am

Sasaki wrote:A couple people have mentioned Dikembe's longevity, but I'm really confused about that. Deke entered the league in 1991, and promptly made the All-Star team. But 2001-02 was his last year in the league when he played more than 24 mpg. After that, he spent the next several years as a backup ala Nazr Mohammed or Kurt Thomas or any one of those old defensive bigs who hang around the league for years.

So, Dikembe has 10 seasons when he's an elite player, and made the All-Star Team eight times. That's not great longevity by any stretch of the imagination. It's not bad, but at the level of players we're talking about, it's sort of meh.

All-time great longevity? No. Better than Thomas'? For sure.

lukekarts · Post #58 » by **lukekarts** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:20 am

Vote - Isiah Thomas

Kinda surprised he's not in yet, seems like he's been picking up a lot of votes for the last few rounds but never quite getting there.

Needs reasoning

Joao Saraiva · Post #59 » by **Joao Saraiva** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:47 am

Basketballefan wrote:Does anyone think Iverson deserves some serious traction by now?

Once Thomas is in it will likely be between him and Pierce for me.

People usually say he's not very efficient but Thomas is not an efficient player too. If Thomas goes here right now, I expect Iverson at least to be in one of the next 3/4 spots.

Post #60 » by **Quotatious** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:51 am

john248 wrote:I don't think I even have Iverson in my top 50. Heck, I have Isiah somewhere in the late 40s. I might even have Nique & TMac higher, but I don't have my list on me currently.

Why Nique over Isiah? Neither was an efficient scorer (Wilkins a little more, but Isiah had a huge edge in terms of playmaking), Thomas performed much better in the playoffs, and he was a better defender than Wilkins. Dominique may have a little better longevity, but is it really significant enough? Isiah was an all-star for about a decade, too.