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Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season...........

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Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#1 » by PandaKidd » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:40 pm

21. Al Horford’s name will enter trade talks.

It happened in stealth mode last season, when the Hawks reached out to a select group and made it known that Horford could be had for the right price — including an unprotected 2014 first-round pick, per several league sources. Nothing materialized, and Horford is ready to return from another torn pectoral muscle.

A healthy Horford is a top-20 player on a below-market contract that runs through 2015-16 — long enough that some team could talk itself into gambling on him. He could net a hefty return for the Hawks, who have been happily skipping down the “pretty good with cap room” path under Danny Ferry.

They have worked to stay competitive, in hopes that they’ll eventually sign a star into that cap space and vault from “pretty good” to something better.5

Stars have rebuffed Atlanta’s money, and the ugly Luol Deng controversy did not enhance the team’s appeal. New owners over the last half-decade have green-lit some aggressive teardowns.

The Hawks don’t have a new owner yet, and as long as Mike Budenholzer is running the front office, they are unlikely to make any trade that represents a present-day step back.

If the ownership situation changes before the deadline, there’s no telling what stance the Hawks might take with Horford, Jeff Teague, or anyone else. Teams will inquire about Horford either way.


http://grantland.com/the-triangle/33-cr ... ba-season/

I think there was something to his shirt not being on the site last year, hes Odd Man out ?
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#2 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:01 pm

We touched on this topic earlier this summer when Grantland initally reported on the stealth trade offers DF was making.

I HATE the thought of a team without AL, but it might be necessary if the team is unable to get to that top tier this season...for WHATEVER reason. MIllsap is a FREE AGENT in 9 months, Horford the year after. If this iteration of the team can't get past the 2nd round...tear it down.

If Horford is unwilling to even discuss the possibility of an extension (similar to Tony Parker's this summer)...tear it down.

If Horford gets injured yet again and the team collapses in his absence...tear it down.

A couple of thoughts:

I REALLY wish Ferry had embraced the rebuild two years ago and built the entire team around Horford. With Smoove coming off the best year of his career, Teague on an expiring rookie contract and two conditional draft picks for 2013...that was the time to be aggressive. Sell stocks at their highest, not their lowest.

If we trade Horford, I hope it's for a high draft pick or highly regarded prospect...at any position. We have a great coach and a very effective offense, but we need top tier talent. Free Agency and drafting haven't been kind to us recently, maybe the trade market will.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#3 » by PandaKidd » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:15 pm

Sorry I couldnt find the previous thread. I dont remember hearing this specific though. Sounds like we tried to get a drat pick from the 76ers :P

At this point, I dont know what they are going to do. Millsap , if he wants big money, hes gone. So do we let him walk for nothing ala J Smoov? Horford returns to All Star caliber, I think we will give him the big contract, hes younger.

But, with Millsap leaving, (i almost guarantee he wont be here next year), that frees up money for someone else (not that we can buy another player because, well, we suck at Free Agency)
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#4 » by Hawk Eye » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:24 pm

I think the general consensus from most nearly all Hawks fans is that this orinazation absolutely can't get top tier talent through FA. This past summer definitely hurt that even more. It's just the plain and simple truth. I also have the same feeling as Panda, that Milsap is going to want a big contract next season and will end up walking. I'm going to be absolutely pissed if he walks and we get nothing in return (aka Josh Smith V 2.0).

As far as Horford goes..I absolutely love the big guy. It's going to seriously upset me if he leaves. If we end up trading him I would want a nearly guarnteed top 3 draft pick for him and would target Okafor or Towns in the 2015 draft. But I don't think teams will come close to that until he proves he can be healthy and return to his form 2-3 years ago.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#5 » by PandaKidd » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:29 pm

No team will trade a top 5 lottery pick anymore because they will just wait and try to sign him outright. Trades are going to be hard to come by because teams wont give up assets for nothing, and they draft picks are too valuable.

I think the Lakers were the last dummies to trade for a 1 year rental ala D12.

If we trade Horford it will be for filler and the HOPES that we land a lottery pick.

Who is likely to be traded right now, IMO its Millsap because hes closest to contract being over (or DMC). Horford I would think would be this coming offseason after he proves hes healthy and still an A+ talent.

maybe Korver but not sure we would get much back for him and hes one of the only scorers we have from the perimeter.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#6 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:21 pm

I would hope that our front office is smart enough to wait and see what they have in this core before making any rash trades.

I would like to keep the team together this season and see where we end up. If we lose Millsap for nothing at the end of the year, so be it. We have to start winning if we are ever going to attract bigger free agents. You aren't going to get much in return for an expiring contract anyway.

I don't see any scenario where Korver is traded. He is an essential piece to the style we are trying to play. This is evident with Ferry giving him a 4 year contract while every other contract has been for 2 years or 3 years with a team option on the 3rd year.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#7 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:24 pm

Regarding Millsap's upcoming free agency.

I don't think it's a guarantee that he won't be a Hawk next season. He will also be a free agent one year before the large increase in cap takes place so giving him 13-15 million per year will end up being the same as giving him say 10-12 million once the cap increases.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#8 » by PandaKidd » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:36 pm

I can foresee several scenarios in which all or none get traded.

To me the most logical is they keep everyone together and make a run and hope Millsaps market is small. I dont forsee him getting a huge contract because no one wants to pay that much for a 30 year old. Also, the BIG PFs in that timeframe will be LMA and Amir Johnson, so, there wont be many nice PFs on the market. So who knows. But I dont see anyone offering him a 15 million a year 4 year contract.

Also a lot of it depends on what they think of Payne and how far he develops
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#9 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:37 pm

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:Regarding Millsap's upcoming free agency.

I don't think it's a guarantee that he won't be a Hawk next season. He will also be a free agent one year before the large increase in cap takes place so giving him 13-15 million per year will end up being the same as giving him say 10-12 million once the cap increases.
I'm not sure giving Millsap 20% of our entire salary cap space makes us a championship contender. An overpay that massive does NOT seem like a SAS style signing. If we make the Final Four this season, I suppose we have to commit. But if we flame out as usual in the 1st or 2nd round, a signing this massive to a player past his prime would be a huge risk with low reward.

PandaKidd wrote:No team will trade a top 5 lottery pick anymore because they will just wait and try to sign him outright.
Agreed. I love AH. But he ain't netting us a top draft pick for one year of his services. Horford and Teague might whet some teams apetitite. Maybe if NY gets a top pick next summer, we trade Al and Jeff for Hardaway, Jr. and the chance to draft Okafor. Or a similar trade to LAL. Bad teams with veteran stars who don't want to wait for a prospect to grow.

PandaKidd wrote:Sorry I couldnt find the previous thread. I don't remember hearing this specific though. Sounds like we tried to get a drat pick from the 76ers
Didn't mean it that way. Just linking the articles for the archives.
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With DF at the reins, I would have no doubt that absolutely nothing would get accomplished in trade this season. I don't know of another Hawks GM who is more deliberate and less successful at pulling off the big acquisition when the deal is on the line.

But with Bud at the reins, I am not sure what to expect either. Coaches typically focus on the more immediate view as opposed to the long term. I guess that Millsap and Horford stay the whole season unless the team falls off the tracks again.

Next summer, Millsap signs elsewhere and we replace him with a Center. Either Asik or Monroe. We then focus all of our energy on either extending Horford or trading him.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#10 » by MaceCase » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:57 pm

The Lakers weren't dummies, they made the shrewdest deal out of everyone involved in the Dwight trade. All they gave up was damaged goods in Bynum (who played zero games as a Sixer) and a 2017 1st. A small price to pay for even a rental of one of the best bigmen in the game.

You're not moving Al, a former All Star at a position that no longer even exists on the ballots that has also suffered two major season ending injuries based on preexisting damage that he has had dating back to college for a top pick though. That's no more a pipe dream than expecting anything for Josh during a "career" year that saw him take the 6th most shots out of everyone in the league yet barely crack the top 20 in points per game. He was a chucker who chucked when he had no business chucking. Most intelligent fans could see that much the same as most GMs but I suppose we could continue the trend of continuously calling Josh a turd on these boards while still expecting a kings ransom in return for him only to be surprised that he indeed could not fetch even a beggar's ransom.

Al is also neither 32 years of age now or even when he'll be a free agent nor is he at the end of his 3rd NBA contract to expect that he would sign a contract extension like Parker did. Expecting him to sign an extension rather than enjoy his first un-restricted free agency at the end of his 2nd contract and in a summer that the new TV deal kicks in expanding the cap would be the biggest red flags of red flags ever.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#11 » by Christine-In-AZ » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:06 pm

Hello Hawk fans. I come in peace and with an in-vest-TA-ga-tive question...

Alex Len, Archie Goodwin, Suns '15 1st round and the Lakers '15 (top 5 protected) pick. (that pick goes top 3 protected '16 and then '17 if not conveyed earlier)

for

Al Horford


What you say?
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#12 » by atlantabbq99 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:59 pm

ChrisInAZ wrote:Hello Hawk fans. I come in peace and with an in-vest-TA-ga-tive question...

Alex Len, Archie Goodwin, Suns '15 1st round and the Lakers '15 (top 5 protected) pick. (that pick goes top 3 protected '16 and then '17 if not conveyed earlier)

for

Al Horford


What you say?


Maybe if the Hawks are rebuilding. But at the moment they are not, so no.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#13 » by Christine-In-AZ » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:18 am

atlantabbq99 wrote:
ChrisInAZ wrote:Hello Hawk fans. I come in peace and with an in-vest-TA-ga-tive question...

Alex Len, Archie Goodwin, Suns '15 1st round and the Lakers '15 (top 5 protected) pick. (that pick goes top 3 protected '16 and then '17 if not conveyed earlier)

for

Al Horford


What you say?


Maybe if the Hawks are rebuilding. But at the moment they are not, so no.


Understood.

The "why not try for Horford?" Question(s) have cropped up again on the Suns board- viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1346985&start=900 ...and thought I should check the temperature.

As a Suns fan I've been pining for Al for years, and would probably "pay" even more than my test trade to get him out here. Again, I get a Hawks fans want to keep him unless overwhelmed.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#14 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:57 am

We would have to pay a lot more than the test trade to get him out of ATL. The rookies plus lotto picks is a good way to start the conversation.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#15 » by theatlfan » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:16 am

PandaKidd wrote:No team will trade a top 5 lottery pick anymore because they will just wait and try to sign him outright. Trades are going to be hard to come by because teams wont give up assets for nothing, and they draft picks are too valuable.

I think the Lakers were the last dummies to trade for a 1 year rental ala D12.

Have to whole-heartedly disagree here. The problem is that teams like CLE who gave up the last 2 #1 overall picks and MIA's picks for Love and NOP who sent a lightly protected 1st for Omer Asik (and his contract) could be doing just that. One could even argue that LAL paid less for D12 (an apparently injured Bynum + a protected 1st and eating a few contracts) than CLE for Love (Wiggins, Benett, plus MIA 1st w/o LeBron) or NOP paid for Asik (a protected 1st). The fact is that teams that think they are close to taking a step will give what they determine is fair value for players to get over that step. The bigger problem is that extracting a top 5 pick would have to work much like LAL - a team that thinks will be good (the West's answer to the superfriends was 4 AS in Nash, Kobe, Pau, and Dwight... what could go wrong?).

The problem with trading Horford for a top 5 pick isn't finding a GM that thinks he's worth that, the problem would be finding that GM for a team that would simultaneously not be rebuilding yet hold a top 5 pick. That a very unique set of circumstances there that very well may not exist except for a handful of times per decade... and we already had one team with this particular set of circumstances this off-season with the Love trade.

Jamaaliver wrote:With DF at the reins, I would have no doubt that absolutely nothing would get accomplished in trade this season. I don't know of another Hawks GM who is more deliberate and less successful at pulling off the big acquisition when the deal is on the line.

But with Bud at the reins, I am not sure what to expect either. Coaches typically focus on the more immediate view as opposed to the long term. I guess that Millsap and Horford stay the whole season unless the team falls off the tracks again.

Next summer, Millsap signs elsewhere and we replace him with a Center. Either Asik or Monroe. We then focus all of our energy on either extending Horford or trading him.
I don't know if the digs on Ferry or the Millsap forecast are particularly accurate (not saying they aren't, just think that it's a little early to tell on either), but I do think the 2nd paragraph there is the heart of the matter. Fact is that we don't know the current direction of the team. On the one hand, we have some talent, a team with a recent history of winning, and some cap space. That isn't typically a recipe for a team to tear down and rebuild. OTOH, we have an owner who wanted to bail before the recent scandal, a GM on an indefinite leave, a roster devoid of a superstar player, and a mayor who apparently is giving assurances that he'll keep the Hawks in Atlanta... yeah, if there's a recipe for "rebuild" that's pretty much it. At this point, I think I'd agree with you in thinking that the safe assumption is to think that Coach Bud isn't going to start trading his starters for future assets since he's was a Coach 1st, but it is just an assumption.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#16 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:03 am

theatlfan wrote:The problem with trading Horford for a top 5 pick isn't finding a GM that thinks he's worth that, the problem would be finding that GM for a team that would simultaneously not be rebuilding yet hold a top 5 pick. That a very unique set of circumstances there that very well may not exist except for a handful of times per decade... and we already had one team with this particular set of circumstances this off-season with the Love trade.

Funnily enough, that might actually be the Suns. The circumstances would have to be right but we could potentially have the #6 picks with other assets to package for Horford. It isn't exactly a top 5 pick but it's pretty close.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#17 » by Jamaaliver » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:01 am

Question for the board. Now that this story has picked up serious steam and made its way across the interwebs, it leads me to 2 questions:

A. Does the fact that we initiated talks to trade him make it more likely Horford walks away from this team as soon as his contract is up?

B. Does it make it MORE difficult for Ferry to return as GM, with AH openly aware that Ferr tried to trade him away?
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#18 » by MaceCase » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:33 am

Every player not named Lebron or Durant knows that they are on the trading block at one time or another. Thinking otherwise means you are entirely delusional of your importance as a player and/or fail to recognize that the NBA is a business. You can't fault a GM for doing his job but if you do, well I guess that would just fall underneath divaness.
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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#19 » by PandaKidd » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:19 pm

I just think being rationale we are losing someone at the end of this year, possibly both DMC and PM.

Now maybe they think thabo and Payne can fill that void but then we have depth issues.

PM is going to have a market like Deng, lots of suitors but no one wanting to pay a ton because of his age. Plus its his last shot at a huge deal unless he signs a 1 year with us (which is dumb).

I feel he will go to the highest bidder.

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Re: Hawks "Shopped" Horford last season........... 

Post#20 » by azuresou1 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:38 pm

PandaKidd wrote:I just think being rationale we are losing someone at the end of this year, possibly both DMC and PM.

Now maybe they think thabo and Payne can fill that void but then we have depth issues.

PM is going to have a market like Deng, lots of suitors but no one wanting to pay a ton because of his age. Plus its his last shot at a huge deal unless he signs a 1 year with us (which is dumb).

I feel he will go to the highest bidder.

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Given the new TV deal and possible changes to the salary cap I think it's actually very possible Millsap considers a one year deal with us. He's in the upper end of his prime but he's still only 29, it's not like he's ancient. He could very well play out this year and sign a one-year deal for more money in the hopes that he can fish for a bigger offer in FA in a plusher market.

Now I know you can say that Deng is also only 29, but Deng has played ~40% more NBA minutes than Millsap has (26K vs. 18.5K). The impact of all those minutes has had clear impacts to performance, and while Millsap is on an upwards trajectory Deng is clearly slowly declining. As a stretch 4 who plays decent defense he's also a hotter commodity than a 3 who can't shoot.

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