Cousins

[FreeBalling]

I love reading basketball information on the Real GM, however, I'm on the RG 3 thread. OMG.

I think I'm barking up the wrong tree, and time will fix this issue. I'd prefer not to burn any bridges on this site about an NFL QB. I'm going to stay away from the Redskins threads.

I'm here for the basketball insight and wisdom the fans provide.

Sorry if I have offended anyone.

[Wizardspride]

^^^What does it matter if the throw is 5 yards or less? Every QB in the league throws passes under 5 yards. As a matter of fact, Tom Brady is consistently one of the leaders in throwing passes under 5 yards so your point is moot. And btw, Griffin career yards per attempt: 7.5—Cousins: 7.4

You lose.

I'm not sold on your argument. Yards after the catch is one measurable stat for a passer. Griffen throws lots of sideways passes. Chad Pennington made a living doing that. I am referring to passing DOWN THE FIELD five or more yards.

O/C's call the quick sideline passes for QB's that have trouble throwing the ball down the field. I truly hope the OC opens up the playbook for RG3 allowing him to demonstrate his full range of weapons. That's one way of measuring strengths and weaknesses.

Here a good case for a down field passing QB. When it's 3rd and 7, 3 and 15 or 3 and 20 because of a false start. We know RG3 can run and extend a play.

If you are aware of a football database that provides advanced passing statistics such as balls thrown 15 yards to the left, center, right. I'll do all of the leg work.

That's not necessarily true. I've seen plenty of OC's call the game this way to neutralize a pass rush.

For example: Gruden stated that the game plan called for Robert to get the ball out quickly against Houston because of the rush.

And assuming you watched that game, you understand why.

[Kanyewest]

Here are RG3's career stats:

63.3 CMP%
6,708 YDS
36 TDS
17 INTS
91.8 RAT

Cousins:

58.8 CMP%
2,891 YDS
18 TDS
18 INTS
78.1 RAT

Cousins has half as many TDS and more INTs than Griffin (in less games).

Cousins in inferior to RG3 in pretty much every way. He doesn't read a defense any better, his accuracy is poor in the middle of the field, and he has psyche issues on par with Griffin.

Like I said, Cousins is a career backup. The end.

Griffin since his rookie year
16 Touchdown
12 Interceptions

His rating is probably closer to Cousins not to mention all the garbage stats Griffin put in when those games were out of reach. I guess even then Griffin is marginally better than Cousins so far. Still, Cousins is still getting his feet wet in the league so it isn't out of the realm of possibility that he improves. Griffin should get the job back if he's healthy and given his past- it might be prudent for Washington to wait.

So you're going to throw out a year of numbers to argue a terrible point.

Why do I bother.

Not my fault if you think RG3 is the same player he was his rookie season

[hands11]

Here are RG3's career stats:

63.3 CMP%
6,708 YDS
36 TDS
17 INTS
91.8 RAT

Cousins:

58.8 CMP%
2,891 YDS
18 TDS
18 INTS
78.1 RAT

Cousins has half as many TDS and more INTs than Griffin (in less games).

Cousins in inferior to RG3 in pretty much every way. He doesn't read a defense any better, his accuracy is poor in the middle of the field, and he has psyche issues on par with Griffin.

Like I said, Cousins is a career backup. The end.

Your point is clear about RG3 vs. Cousins. However, I'd like to know how many of his passes are 5 yards or less. That's a HUGE number in his misleading passing %. They are catches. I will not argue that point. Cousins passes the ball down field where there are more skilled defenders to make interceptions. Cousins has problems reading the defenders where as Griffen has problems reading his progressions.

Furthermore, Griffen gets hurt A LOT. I believe the running QB in today's NFL does not take advantage of the rules put in place to promote a passing league. There are more points scored this year then any other year because of passing. I got that from Mike and Mike the other day.

Valid points.

Both have work to do.

[Wizardspride]

Griffin since his rookie year
16 Touchdown
12 Interceptions

His rating is probably closer to Cousins not to mention all the garbage stats Griffin put in when those games were out of reach. I guess even then Griffin is marginally better than Cousins so far. Still, Cousins is still getting his feet wet in the league so it isn't out of the realm of possibility that he improves. Griffin should get the job back if he's healthy and given his past- it might be prudent for Washington to wait.

So you're going to throw out a year of numbers to argue a terrible point.

Why do I bother.

Not my fault if you think RG3 is the same player he was his rookie season

I'm not sure he isn't the same player. Yet.

It was only one carry but when he turned the corner against Jacksonville he looked a lot like 2012 RG3.

Time will tell.

[Nivek]

I'd need convincing that the distance the ball travels on a throw is somehow a measure of how good a QB is. A lot of the game's all-time great QBs made their livings on short throws. I saw one article a couple weeks ago talking about Tom Brady being really bad at throwing the deep ball, but being at the top in passes under 15 yards.

My understanding of advanced NFL stats is that the key numbers for a QB are the various iterations of yards per attempt. In these categories, Griffin was well above average as a rookie, and was a little below average in his second season. Cousins was well below average last season. ProFootballReference.com doesn't have their index numbers up for this season. He may not have had enough attempts in 2012 to be included in the index stats (which set league average at 100 -- higher being better).

I'm willing to be convinced, so I hope someone knows of a site that has the relevant data. I'd be interested to see what you can find in the numbers.

[Nivek]

Went over to AdvancedNFLStats.com, which is what it sounds like. It's the work of a former fighter pilot named Brian Burke, who lives in Reston. Anyway...

Here's how Cousins ranks this season in some of the QB metrics Burke publishes:

- Win Probability Added per game: 22
- Expected Points Added per play: 18
- Success Rate: 17
- Adjusted Yards Per Pass Attempt: 14
- %Deep (% of pass attempts that are >15 yards): 17

For Griffin last season:
- WPA/G: 30
- EPA/play: 24
- Success Rate: 24
- AYPA: 23
- %Deep: 21

And, for Griffin, rookie season:
- WPA/G: 12
- EPA/play: 4
- Success Rate: 11
- AYPA: 4
- %Deep: 27

This info doesn't directly address the distance traveled on a throw question, but it's worth noting that in Griffin's rookie season, he attempted passes of 15+ yards about about the same rate as QBs like Peyton Manning and Matt Ryan, and a bit more often than Drew Brees.

Last season, Peyton Manning was 29th in deep passing attempts -- in a tight bunch with guys like Tom Brady, Griffin, Roethlisberger, Andy Dalton, Philip Rivers, and Brees.

This year, Manning is again way down the list -- 31st so far this year. Just eyeballing the lists, I don't think there's much correlation between attempting passes deeper down the field and being a good QB. Manning, for example, is 31st in %deep this season, but is 5th in AYPA. The best AYPA guys are a mix of shorter throwers and deeper ones.

[Kanyewest]

I'm not sure he isn't the same player. Yet.

It was only one carry but when he turned the corner against Jacksonville he looked a lot like 2012 RG3.

Time will tell.

True I think he looked better than he did in 2013.

[Knighthonor]

Cousins is a backup. He good at what he was drafted for.
If people want him as a starter, than how about a trade of RG3 to the Eagles or Cowboys? The Cowboys have a good Oline, he could light things up there, and the Redskins' RG3 hater fans, can see the Redskins defense pound him... Win win for you all. Lol

[W. Unseld]

Listening to Sheehan on the radio today and for what it's worth his NFL sources told him the following:
1. RG3 wants to be a pocket passer--he no longer wants to run. I find this hard to believe, it'd be like Nene saying he no longer wants to post up or Wall saying he no longer wants to drive. He implied that both Shanny & Gruden have affirmed this.
2. RG3 was never hurt on a pistol/run option play b/c there is a lot more blocking there, it's a designed play and RG3 shows very good judgment on it.
3. RG3 doesn't like to throw into tight windows, so he doesn't throw too many picks but in the NFL you have to throw into tight windows, they call it "throwing the WR open."
4. Noted that Kyle's offense is working in Cleveland. He's making Hoyer look good and the Browns can run well while the Skins can't.
5. Both Shanny & Gruden were high on both qbs.
6. Gruden may be even higher on Cousins b/c he never saw RG3 at his peak live.
7. Gruden firmly believes that Cousins will recover from his meltdowns.
8. Regardless, RG3 will be reinserted once healthy b/c they need to look at him for contract purposes. The franchise wants a healthy RG3 to take the reigns given all that they gave up for him.

[Dark Faze]

I can't believe RGIII refuses to run when 90% of his worst hits have come from inside the pocket.

[W. Unseld]

I can't believe RGIII refuses to run when 90% of his worst hits have come from inside the pocket.

I don't think it's the same as refusing to scramble. I find it hard to believe too but I would find it less hard to believe that he wants to minimize running.

[Dark Faze]

He might as well just be scrambling because during most of his drop backs he's basically not even in the pocket anymore. Majority of his sacks come from guys who run a straight line off the edge because he's moved so far back outside of the pocket. They don't have to work through the line, just around them, which is significantly easier and faster.

[Nivek]

I generally view information coming from unnamed "sources" with skepticism. It's impossible for me on the outside to assess the credibility of that source. It pretty much comes down to trusting the person relaying information from that unnamed source. I don't have much reason to think Sheehan is lying, but I don't know his reporting chops, and I don't know how well placed his source is. Just guessing, but I suspect his "source" is Sonny Jurgensen.

Looking at the journalism side of this, the use of unnamed sources has become too prevalent. I've used anonymous sources when I was doing reporting, though I always sought to verify stuff I was being told.

To me, the standard should be that FACTUAL information provided by an anonymous source ought to be independently verified where possible prior to publication. At minimum, in a case like someone claiming "Griffin doesn't want to run the ball anymore" the question needs to be put to Griffin and Gruden. At least give them the chance to respond.

Where it's someone providing analysis or opinion, but is in a position where he/she doesn't want to be on-record with that opinion for some reason...then I'm more agnostic. When I did a story about player development a few years ago, I talked to a TON of scouts, assistant coaches, executives, players, agents, trainers and so on. Virtually everyone was willing to talk...but didn't want to put their names behind the details of what they were thinking and doing with their teams/players.

But, here's the funny part of that story. Tommy Sheppard talked to me on the record. When I published the article, he was able to go through and with pretty remarkable accuracy tell me who my anonymous sources were.

[payitforward]

(EDIT)

[W. Unseld]

Nivek, Sheehan surmised that Shanny didn't want to be interviewed b/c he would appear to be gloating and he wants another job in the league. There are a zillion good reasons why Gruden would never say it, true or not. With that said, I'm still having trouble buying it--he's always struck me as a "whatever it takes to win" guy. Points 3-8 seem to be more credible.

[Knighthonor]

(EDIT)

[W. Unseld]

So much for football...

[hands11]

(EDIT)

[Knighthonor]

(EDIT)