The TJ Warren Thread!

[Sun Scorched]

Yeah, Archie was like 18 or something when drafted. Don't expect much, regardless of profession, for someone that age. Not a knock against Archie, just fact.

And Wade doesn't have an NBA jump shot either. Nor Igoudala. Nor Tony Allen. Nor Josh Smith. Nor MCW. Nor Andre Miller. Nor LRMAM. Nor Brewer. Nor DeRozan. Etc, etc.

Archie doesn't need to hit threes, in my opinion. He's a slasher and should look to solidify where he's already solid. I think that refining strengths is far more important than strengthening weaknesses, though both need attention obviously.

[phrazbit]

Yeah, Archie was like 18 or something when drafted. Don't expect much, regardless of profession, for someone that age. Not a knock against Archie, just fact.

And Wade doesn't have an NBA jump shot either. Nor Igoudala. Nor Tony Allen. Nor Josh Smith. Nor MCW. Nor Andre Miller. Nor LRMAM. Nor Brewer. Nor DeRozan. Etc, etc.

Archie doesn't need to hit threes, in my opinion. He's a slasher and should look to solidify where he's already solid. I think that refining strengths is far more important than strengthening weaknesses, though both need attention obviously.

A lot of those guys you listen have pretty solid jump shots... especially Wade, and virtually all of the guards you listed are good with the ball in their hands and at passing. Archie is a disaster with the ball in his hands, he absolutely must get much much better at passing the ball and avoiding turnovers or he will won't make it in this league. A 1:2 assist to turnover ratio would be a rough mark for a center, for a guard to rock that number is unserviceable.

[MrMiyagi]

Wade also came into the league 4 years older than Archie. Calm down people, no one said Archie is going to make the All Star team next season. No need to bash someone who is our 11th or 12th man.

[Frank Lee]

if bashing is stating the truth then is it really bashing ?

Some here have already pencilled him into the 'core' of the future. The guy had better improve or he'll be going the PJ route with a 2 yr stint overseas. The only thing keeping him from pulling his passport is his skin-o-teeth first round deal.

I'm all for Archie, but he is not but a mediocre season from being meathead.

[MrMiyagi]

Just let me remind you what you said really quickly Frank

having TBuckets sure eases the pain of watching/hoping Archie 'NotsoGoodwin'

Your compliment of TJ is based on the insult of another player. Is it really painful to watch Archie? Is it really necessary to call him "NotsoGoodwin"? That is going above and beyond for a critique of a player, especially since this thread is supposed to be about TJ. You could've just talked about TJ's game and what you like about it like other posters have. So yes, I do consider it bashing.

[Frank Lee]

well then, I'll bash on. Thanks for the reminder.

'Notso' has his fan club here, so be it. His worth is an inflated projection of What Ifs and Hope Sos. Will be interesting to see the leash CoachH places on him.

[Christine-In-AZ]

Archie is going to be "SoGoodwin", but not anytime soon.

2 or 3 years out at least.

2 years from now Archie will still be younger than Goran was when he started playing for the Suns in '08 ...and it was "tragic Dragic" that first year. Ugh-a-ly!

My only doubt is whether or not A.Goodwin will still be in Phoenix when the game slows down for him, and he pulls it all together. Especially with a couple or three high picks coming soon, Bogdan simmering in Europe, and "the big shift" trade currently at T- 16 months and counting (or less).

Archie will be a no-doubt starter to an All-star candidate in his 26 to 31 years old prime.

A good win vision of 2020 and farther ...well? Further.

[MrMiyagi]

well then, I'll bash on. Thanks for the reminder.

'Notso' has his fan club here, so be it. His worth is an inflated projection of What Ifs and Hope Sos. Will be interesting to see the leash CoachH places on him.

Isn't that TJ's as well right now? I mean, he hasn't even played an actual NBA game yet. If he has a similar season as Archie did his rookie year, should we just throw him in whatever trade comes our way?

All I'd like is to let these guys play out their rookie deals first before we start saying how good or bad these guys are.

[phrazbit]

Archie is going to be "SoGoodwin", but not anytime soon.

2 or 3 years out at least.

2 years from now Archie will still be younger than Goran was when he started playing for the Suns in '08 ...and it was "tragic Dragic" that first year. Ugh-a-ly!

My only doubt is whether or not A.Goodwin will still be in Phoenix when the game slows down for him, and he pulls it all together. Especially with a couple or three high picks coming soon, Bogdan simmering in Europe, and "the big shift" trade currently at T- 16 months and counting (or less).

Archie will be a no-doubt starter to an All-star candidate in his 26 to 31 years old prime.

A good win vision of 2020 and farther ...well? Further.

There is a long and not so distinguished list of names of dudes that had Archie's rough skill set, came into the league, their fans hyped them up and a few years later the guy was playing some obscure foreign league or out of basketball entirely. Archie is anything but a sure bet to eventually succeed. I hope he does have it all come together for him, and sooner rather than later. But most guys who seemingly completely lack a BBall IQ never get better.

I especially don't see him following Dragic's mold. Archie is beyond terrible in his decision making with the ball in his hands, to go from that into a servicable, attacking, combo guard is a biiiiiiiiiig leap. IMO he needs to focus on his shooting and defense. Become a 3 and D player who can slash to the hoop. If he keeps ball-hogging it and forcing his own offense he will never see the court consistently and he will be out of the league in a short time.

[Revived]

I'm a big believer in Archie Goodwin. The kid works extremely hard. When the staff says you are outworking guys like Bledsoe and Dragic, that means something to me. He has an elite first step. His main problem is that the game has not yet slowed down for him, which it will. Also he doesn't have an NBA jump shot. I think with all the time he's putting in he will eventually get there though. We have the luxury of being able to bring him along slowly. He's on a guaranteed deal for 2 more years after this one at the paltry salary of a 28th pick. There's some great players on the team that he can learn from.

Lets not forget that even though he's been in the league a year he's still a full year younger than TJ Warren. Some people just bloom late too. I think Archie is going to be fine. I honestly like what I've seen out of him this preseason more than what I've seen out of Zoran.

Exactly. Guys with his work ethic and athleticism rarely fail to succeed in this league.

Its moronic to hate on Goodwin when he hasn't played awful when given legitimate minutes

11/19 @ SAC: 19 minutes played - 16 pts on 70% shooting

2/25 vs MIN: 16 minutes played - 10 pts on 55% shooting and 5 rebounds

2/26 vs UTA: 27 minutes played - 16 pts on 60% shooting and 7 rebounds.

4/16 @ SAC: 31 minutes played - 29 pts on 84% shooting

He just needs time and patience. Some more actual game time minutes (something unlikely to happen here due to the plethora of guards) to develop would be extremely beneficial also.

His ceiling is still imo very high....of course so is his floor. We have to wait and see.

[Frank Lee]

He's on the 'floor' now, and we are all staring at the ceiling.

Seems to me, by the time he improves to the point of significant contribution, his deal here will be dried up. I also think he is high on the list of trade assets. The difference between Notso and Buckets is simply proven experience on the court, i.e. shooting/BBIQ. Sure, it was at the collegiate level, but TJ has shown a skill set and ability that Archie lacks. I'm guessing another sparse appearance yr for the KY Kid. He'd better James Brown it.





PS... I am sure our FO is/was fully aware of the 'Goodwin Project'. He, in no way hurts this roster. They will handle him accordingly, in both playing time and contract tenure. Minutes are going to be hard to come by at his position. He is going to have to 'practice' his way onto the court.

[Revived]

Let's see Warren actually play in the nba before making such proclaimations and things.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Three things missing from the Warren discussion:

1. He has a really quick jumper. A lot of players can shoot quickly, but he actually makes the shot when he shoots it quick. It's unusual.

2. Everyone worries that he's a mid-range guy. Saw some interactive graphic recently that showed where missed shots go to on the floor. The thing about the 12-14 foot range from where TJ gets a lot of shots is - that's the only area other than right under the basket where the rebound often goes right back to the area the ball was shot from. So a guy shoots 60% from midrange who gets the offensive rebound back 20% of the time actually shoots 66%, equivalent to 50% 3FG. When you add in the and-ones that are more likely from that range and on putbacks, you move even higher. And when you consider that you can actually get those shots any time you want rather than having to go through a whole set, over the course of which turnovers are probably more likely... you get the picture.

3. TJ does so many little things I've noticed even over the course of very few preseason minutes. He moves out of the way of his teammates. He really thinks about the offense and tries to help give teammates space. He can beat the PG on both offense (offensive baords) and defense if he's forced to switch. He's really smart.


... I'd really like to see TJ and PJ get some "PT" together, haha. Not nearly as much as I would to see Alex play, but that's another thread.

[Christine-In-AZ]

There is a long and not so distinguished list of names of dudes that had Archie's rough skill set, came into the league, their fans hyped them up and a few years later the guy was playing some obscure foreign league or out of basketball entirely. Archie is anything but a sure bet to eventually succeed. I hope he does have it all come together for him, and sooner rather than later. But most guys who seemingly completely lack a BBall IQ never get better.

I've watched the often very short career arcs of many of those on the list in the last 40+ years of NBA/Suns viewing. Unless off the court issues derail Archie's BBall IQ development and maturing, he's an extremely good bet to succeed for a 20 year old.

I see great facets in this very rough gem. All the right intangibles are there for me. We'll see next to nothing from Archie this year, but he's going to be very good in a few years if he just keeps grinding with the same attitude.

[bwgood77]

Of course I fell asleep early in the game last night and missed Warren's first quarter. Anyone compile his 4th qtr highlights? Scooper?

[kennydorglas]

Of course I fell asleep early in the game last night and missed Warren's first quarter. Anyone compile his 4th qtr highlights? Scooper?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8V7mkV7Pto[/youtube]

[ATTL]

Give tj more time, touches, and opportunities to create in our final games. He doesn't play like a rookie so stop treating him like one.

[Ryu]

I like TJ Warren more than Jabari Parker. And it`s not just because he is a Suns` player.

[kennydorglas]

More impressive aspect of this play on 4Q... he did it against Iggy.
He's lazy on defense (bad stance, poor lateral movement and footwork)... but man, this guy is a ****' dynamite in the offense.
Kinda like a robot, he doesnt waste any motion to score... he does that efficiently... and more important, he isnt a ball stopper.
he find out quickly if he'll have a chance to score... that's the beauty on him.

[bwgood77]

I like TJ Warren more than Jabari Parker. And it`s not just because he is a Suns` player.

Yeah, he was better in college and he is likely still better. I didn't see Jabari much this year, but I love TJ. I've always felt TJ definitely had a chance of being a top 5 player in this draft.