Game Thread: Bucks vs Knicks @ Carmelo's Home. 7:30PM MSG

[Capn'O]

where was all this when defending Tyson?

Aha! The root is uncovered.

[MetaKnick13]

This game showed a lot of promise. I was really impressed with the team effort.

[F N 11]

D Rose with 30. He looks good. we need Shump to be on him like glue in game 1.

[wakkahman]

D Rose with 30. He looks good. we need Shump to be on him like glue in game 1.

Make secret weapon Stoudemire guard him. I can already hear the loud " OH Sheet!" and " REBOUND!" echoing through the garden

[BKAY]

My random thoughts that ill drop here.

Hardaway will be attacking the basket more this year, thats for sure. His defense is still weak as hell though. He needs a strong defender behind him at the wing but if we plan to play Melo at the 3, its going to be tough to get him and Shump on the court at the same time unless they both come off the bench.

I like Hardaway and Shump as an off the bench duo because their games compliment each other well. People are wigging out that these two arent all NBA 1st team players but their expectations are just too damn high. Shump and Hardaway are guys who will be amazing role players in the league when they reach their primes. They both excel at what they do and need to shore up elements of their games but what do you expect? They are so young. Shump is still on his rookie deal and Hardaway is going into his second year and both have shown flashes of really great play. These guys are pieces to a puzzle.

Its like if a guy cant do everything on the court they are labeled as trash around here.

If were building around Melo and the triangle, which we obviously are, Hardaway and Shump are guys who work with that theme. Melo is a guy who needs shooters and strong defenders around him.

JR will be gone soon enough and that will allow them to flourish but Shump and Hardaway are still not quite there yet and JR has 1-2 years on his contract so f it what can ya do? Everybody around here knows that were not winning ish this year. So what good does it do to trade off our young pieces. They are building a culture right now and I hope they keep the pieces they drafted around. When Hardaway and Shump reach their primes at 26-27-28 , you'll be happy that you kept them around.

[Rock Bottom]

2015 Starting PG for the NY Knicks?

You know I was thinking we should go PG too no matter what.. with all the other plans if they happen..

Focusing on a PG seems shortsighted to me, they should just go best available player. The only guy on this roster is untouchable is Melo so you don't need to worry about position too much.

I know the best safest way is to go BAP.. it's what everyone would do.. it's because I'm thinking ahead not short, which is why I was thinking PG. We've passed on a PG every time.. personally if it was that or try to pick up an older one or even a few years one, I'd rather develop a young, our own, PG for us for once. I don't think BAP has always ended up in Best overall career every time all the time..

[suicidedeuce]

Exactly. He's a stupid defender who gets caught napping and does dumb things. Like his offense, his tools are there to get the job done but the thing that sits atop his neck prevents him from translating natural basketball gifts into quality play.

Again, where can I find evidential support of JR Smith's lack of quality defense?

I'd like to know more or better than i did 5 mins ago. Can you help?

[ORANGEandBLUE]

Put aside defense for a second... are THJ and JR that much better than Shump offensively? Shump has been doing some nice things offensively in terms of getting into the paint, passing, and crashing the offensive glass. On the other hand, THJ and JR seem incapable of going more than 5 straight possessions without launching heinously stupid off-the-dribble contested shots.

[earthmansurfer]

Put aside defense for a second... are THJ and JR that much better than Shump offensively? Shump has been doing some nice things offensively in terms of getting into the paint, passing, and crashing the offensive glass. On the other hand, THJ and JR seem incapable of going more than 5 straight possessions without launching heinously stupid off-the-dribble contested shots.

I think they are, especially because they both can create their own shot. (for the most part).
Shump can be good in this system though, he just has to knock his shots down. Hopefully he can start hitting shots more consistently like before Wooden got in his head (and the knee injury).

[K_ick_God]

Exactly. He's a stupid defender who gets caught napping and does dumb things. Like his offense, his tools are there to get the job done but the thing that sits atop his neck prevents him from translating natural basketball gifts into quality play.

Again, where can I find evidential support of JR Smith's lack of quality defense?

I'd like to know more or better than i did 5 mins ago. Can you help?

So should all anectodal evidence be ignored then? I guess the entire industry of scouting players in person at every game is one giant waste of time.

[F N 11]

D Rose with 30. He looks good. we need Shump to be on him like glue in game 1.

Make secret weapon Stoudemire guard him. I can already hear the loud " OH Sheet!" and " REBOUND!" echoing through the garden

Yeah he always screams and when he meesses up he looks at people like they messed up lol

[suicidedeuce]

Exactly. He's a stupid defender who gets caught napping and does dumb things. Like his offense, his tools are there to get the job done but the thing that sits atop his neck prevents him from translating natural basketball gifts into quality play.

Again, where can I find evidential support of JR Smith's lack of quality defense?

I'd like to know more or better than i did 5 mins ago. Can you help?

So should all anectodal evidence be ignored then? I guess the entire industry of scouting players in person at every game is one giant waste of time.

Of course not. The astute mind gathers ALL available evidence and tries to make sense of it together.

That's why I'd like to have access to the same information you have about JR Smith's defense.

Can you share it so I know the same thing you do?

[K_ick_God]

Again, where can I find evidential support of JR Smith's lack of quality defense?

I'd like to know more or better than i did 5 mins ago. Can you help?

So should all anectodal evidence be ignored then? I guess the entire industry of scouting players in person at every game is one giant waste of time.

Of course not. The astute mind gathers ALL available evidence and tries to make sense of it together.

That's why I'd like to have access to the same information you have about JR Smith's defense.

Can you share it so I know the same thing you do?

Gets lost or caught napping frequently, or is out of position defensively, gives inconsistent effort defending his man -- anecdotally gathered information corroborated above in scouting-report-like fashion

In the last 3 years, have you noticed, using only your human powers of perception, JR Smith seeming to have a tendency to a) lack energy or vigor in his movements on the court (compared to the average NBA player) or b) have body language that seems less engaged in the competitive aspects of winning the game at hand (compared to the average NBA player)? You can include regular season and playoffs for the purposes of your answer.

Take your time answering -- I'll save you the effort of looking it up online: There's no statistical category that measures this. But keep in mind your implicit promise to tell the truth; we don't want a repeat of "Question: Would the NBA have fined the Timberwovles if Joe Smith wore a wire and gave them an audio recording with McHale verbally promising to pay him later after he signed the illicit contract?" Your answer: "No."

[three2theD]

The question is is Shumpert's defense good enough to compensate for his anemic offense? The answer is HELL NO! This year he's trying to tell us he's happy so everything is going to change. Just another gimmick so he can convince us and himself that he's going to play well this year. I don't buy it. If Fisher knows what he's doing, which I'm pretty sure he doesn't, he'd start Tim and have JR back him up.

Alright we get it you don't like Shumpert.

Correction, it's not that I don't like shumpert, I just don't think he's a particularly good player like a lot people on here think. Hardaway is a future all-star, starting shumpert is a horrible move.

[suicidedeuce]

Gets lost or caught napping frequently, or is out of position defensively, gives inconsistent effort defending his man -- anecdotally gathered information corroborated above in scouting-report-like fashion

In the last 3 years, have you noticed, using only your human powers of perception, JR Smith seeming to have a tendency to a) lack energy or vigor in his movements on the court (compared to the average NBA player) or b) have body language that seems less engaged in the competitive aspects of winning the game at hand (compared to the average NBA player)? You can include regular season and playoffs for the purposes of your answer.

Take your time answering -- I'll save you the effort of looking it up online: There's no statistical category that measures this. But keep in mind your implicit promise to tell the truth; we don't want a repeat of "Question: Would the NBA have fined the Timberwovles if Joe Smith wore a wire and gave them an audio recording with McHale verbally promising to pay him later after he signed the illicit contract?" Your answer: "No."

I have no interest in your personal observation. You have proven yourself to highly prone to bias confirmation.

Remember, we're talking both statistical AND anecdotal.

My anecdotal observation. Yes, JR Smith's body language sometimes promotes the appearance that he not as engaged as he could be.

But my observations are also influenced by conclusions I've already reached, and things are looking for confirmation of.

Unless you misunderstood me all this time, I'm prone to the same shortcomings ALL people are tying to evaluate sports with the naked eye and memory.

That's why I never shoot off my personal theories without testing it against recorded observation.

So assuming you've taken care to do the same, what statistical evidence have you found that supports your personal observation?

[K_ick_God]

Gets lost or caught napping frequently, or is out of position defensively, gives inconsistent effort defending his man -- anecdotally gathered information corroborated above in scouting-report-like fashion

In the last 3 years, have you noticed, using only your human powers of perception, JR Smith seeming to have a tendency to a) lack energy or vigor in his movements on the court (compared to the average NBA player) or b) have body language that seems less engaged in the competitive aspects of winning the game at hand (compared to the average NBA player)? You can include regular season and playoffs for the purposes of your answer.

Take your time answering -- I'll save you the effort of looking it up online: There's no statistical category that measures this. But keep in mind your implicit promise to tell the truth; we don't want a repeat of "Question: Would the NBA have fined the Timberwovles if Joe Smith wore a wire and gave them an audio recording with McHale verbally promising to pay him later after he signed the illicit contract?" Your answer: "No."

I have no interest in your personal observation. You have proven yourself to highly prone to bias confirmation.

Remember, we're talking both statistical AND anecdotal.

My anecdotal observation. Yes, JR Smith's body language sometimes promotes the appearance that he not as engaged as he could be.

But my observations are also influenced by conclusions I've already reached, and things are looking for confirmation of.

Unless you misunderstood me all this time, I'm prone to the same shortcomings ALL people are tying to evaluate sports with the naked eye and memory.

That's why I never shoot off my personal theories without testing it against recorded observation.

So assuming you've taken care to do the same, what statistical evidence have you found that supports your personal observation?

The 2013 playoffs and JR's performance therein cannot FULLY be quantified by his statistics. You'd have to watch his performance -- his lack of energy, his failure to compete, his total collapse. Appreciate you conceding that point.

Where I probably still disagree with you is that after that collapse, there's almost nothing that JR could do that would redeem him in my eyes. He's shown his true colors. He is not to be relied upon. At all.

[suicidedeuce]

Gets lost or caught napping frequently, or is out of position defensively, gives inconsistent effort defending his man -- anecdotally gathered information corroborated above in scouting-report-like fashion

In the last 3 years, have you noticed, using only your human powers of perception, JR Smith seeming to have a tendency to a) lack energy or vigor in his movements on the court (compared to the average NBA player) or b) have body language that seems less engaged in the competitive aspects of winning the game at hand (compared to the average NBA player)? You can include regular season and playoffs for the purposes of your answer.

Take your time answering -- I'll save you the effort of looking it up online: There's no statistical category that measures this. But keep in mind your implicit promise to tell the truth; we don't want a repeat of "Question: Would the NBA have fined the Timberwovles if Joe Smith wore a wire and gave them an audio recording with McHale verbally promising to pay him later after he signed the illicit contract?" Your answer: "No."

I have no interest in your personal observation. You have proven yourself to highly prone to bias confirmation.

Remember, we're talking both statistical AND anecdotal.

My anecdotal observation. Yes, JR Smith's body language sometimes promotes the appearance that he not as engaged as he could be.

But my observations are also influenced by conclusions I've already reached, and things are looking for confirmation of.

Unless you misunderstood me all this time, I'm prone to the same shortcomings ALL people are tying to evaluate sports with the naked eye and memory.

That's why I never shoot off my personal theories without testing it against recorded observation.

So assuming you've taken care to do the same, what statistical evidence have you found that supports your personal observation?

The 2013 playoffs and JR's performance therein cannot FULLY be quantified by his statistics. You'd have to watch his performance -- his lack of energy, his failure to compete, his total collapse. Appreciate you conceding that point.

Where I probably still disagree with you is that after that collapse, there's almost nothing that JR could do that would redeem him in my eyes. He's shown his true colors. He is not to be relied upon. At all.

You have trouble answering simple questions. Why not simply say "not, I have and and will not do that".

You're welcome to have a personal opinion about JR Smith. It simply just has no value to anyone but yourself.

[Greenie]

D Rose with 30. He looks good. we need Shump to be on him like glue in game 1.

[Greenie]

The question is is Shumpert's defense good enough to compensate for his anemic offense? The answer is HELL NO! This year he's trying to tell us he's happy so everything is going to change. Just another gimmick so he can convince us and himself that he's going to play well this year. I don't buy it. If Fisher knows what he's doing, which I'm pretty sure he doesn't, he'd start Tim and have JR back him up.

Alright we get it you don't like Shumpert.

Correction, it's not that I don't like shumpert, I just don't think he's a particularly good player like a lot people on here think. Hardaway is a future all-star, starting shumpert is a horrible move.

All of this.

All Shumpert is, is a homeless, dying man's Tony Allen.

[Greenie]

where was all this when defending Tyson?

Aha! The root is uncovered.

It's weird that we sh*t on Tyson for not being able to cover everyone when supposedly the scheme was to funnel everything to him anyway, but yet Shump gets a pass. And don't give me that "well Tyson stopped being a team player" when Shump played like crap all last year due to "rumors" of him being shopped for a damn trade.