Why det wont move downtown.

[dVs33]

It's hard to get a solution to this one since there's good points for both sides.
I've been to the palace a few times and really enjoyed it, but this past weekend I went to both a Red Wings and Lions game in downtown for the first time and I could imagine a pistons game downtown would be pretty crazy.

I wonder if they could play a few games downtown each season just to test the water.

[DTP]

You're supporting my point. Like you said, the reason MSG sells out good or bad is because it's IN THE CITY. There are things to do. Put that stadium 30 miles outside NYC in White Plains and you'd damn sure better believe a crappy Knicks team wouldn't sell it out. Detroit will never be NYC and no one ever alluded to any such thing. But you don't need a city of 11 million people to sell out an arena that seats 20,000.

It's not about being able to get to games. It's about the stadium being in an area of activity vs. inactivity.

Detroit will never have the activity or history that New York does. NY is a rare situation....no other market in the league is like it with the exception of Toronto. If putting the team downtown automatically increases attendance then why are so many other bad teams around in the league drawing poor attendance numbers despite them being downtown?

Pretty simple...this is a entertainment business, if you put a good product on the floor then people will come. The product has been absolute crap, which results in crap attendance....has nothing to do with the address of the arena. If the Pistons were struggling to draw crowds during the good years, then yeah I support the decision to move downtown. If the product hadn't been so crap the last five years, yeah I'd support it.

[Manocad]

I don't know why you're stuck on this "Detroit will never be New York" thing; it doesn't have to be. As was already stated, there's a good reason teams are moving downtown across the league. No one is claiming that putting a crappy team downtown means automatic sell outs. All that was stated was that you can guarantee that a marginal team playing in an area of activity where more people go on a consistent basis will outdraw that same team in an area where no one goes unless they're going there only to see the team. The Pistons don't have to sell out in order for the business case to support moving them downtown. If projected revenue minus cost with the team downtown is higher than revenue minus cost with the team in Auburn Hills, you move the team if you're a smart businessman.

You know what--I've got a great idea for a fantastic new restaurant! Think I should put it in the entertainment district downtown or up on M24 toward Lake Orion? What do you think draws more people--a place like Cheli's by Ford Field/Comerica Park, or a better value restaurant near the Palace? The quality of the team is going to change or not change regardless of where they're located. A move to downtown presents the opportunity for higher revenue due to being in an area with more to do.

[DTP]

As long as the Pistons and Palace Sports Entertainment are a package deal, there is no smart business reason to move the team to Detroit. The small revenue increase from a couple hundred more fans probably wouldn't even cover renting expenses in the new arena. Yes most teams play downtown but yes most teams still bring in sucky crowds when their product sucks.....what's the difference? Oh because the biggest market in the league sells out regardless, it means the Pistons in Detroit would too!

[kurtis48239]

I could see the benifit of having det downtown,this is a pretty good state when it comes to its sports (look at the lions befor megatron).But since gores owns the palace and dte,I dont think it would be a wise business choice for him.

I like the idea of having 4-5 games downtown at the new arena,start small.

[Manocad]

As long as the Pistons and Palace Sports Entertainment are a package deal, there is no smart business reason to move the team to Detroit. The small revenue increase from a couple hundred more fans probably wouldn't even cover renting expenses in the new arena. Yes most teams play downtown but yes most teams still bring in sucky crowds when their product sucks.....what's the difference? Oh because the biggest market in the league sells out regardless, it means the Pistons in Detroit would too!

I see you're still stuck on your New York thing. The Pistons don't have to sell out to be more profitable playing downtown than in Auburn Hills. Now, it seems you want to believe that all they could draw is a couple hundred more fans yet you' presented no logic behind that other than "they suck." I've presented very sound logic that many businesses adhere to--put your business in an area where more people hang out and you'll get more people frequenting your business. Granted, I realize this is a difficult concept for people with no business sense to grasp.

[DTP]

As long as the Pistons and Palace Sports Entertainment are a package deal, there is no smart business reason to move the team to Detroit. The small revenue increase from a couple hundred more fans probably wouldn't even cover renting expenses in the new arena. Yes most teams play downtown but yes most teams still bring in sucky crowds when their product sucks.....what's the difference? Oh because the biggest market in the league sells out regardless, it means the Pistons in Detroit would too!

I see you're still stuck on your New York thing. The Pistons don't have to sell out to be more profitable playing downtown than in Auburn Hills. Now, it seems you want to believe that all they could draw is a couple hundred more fans yet you' presented no logic behind that other than "they suck." I've presented very sound logic that many businesses adhere to--put your business in an area where more people hang out and you'll get more people frequenting your business. Granted, I realize this is a difficult concept for people with no business sense to grasp.

No business sense from a guy that's about to graduate with a business degree, ha. Listen, I understand your point that putting them in Detroit would draw more fans to the game and I'm not disputing that. My question is, is it big enough to take revenue out of your own arena annnnnnnnnnnd along with that pay to use another arena? Is it big enough to have to build a new practice facility, closer to Detroit for player's convenience? Only three teams with a worst record outside of Boston & LA (Huge markets, historic teams, going to draw well regardless of their roster because of their brand) averaged more fans per night. Utah 3,170 more per night but they're a unique situation because the Jazz are all they have....Sacramento 1,286 they're still fighting for their team...and Orlando 1,240 huge tourist destination. So yeah, say attendance did bump up....lets say 2,000 more fans per night. Is that enough? I don't think it is.

This is a different conversation if the team didn't sell out every night when they were good but remember those days, the team led the team in attendance just about every night. We don't have those special situations that other teams do that makes it okay for them to suck and still do well in attendance and moving the team to Detroit wouldn't change that. As a business man....the smart thing to do is to keep the revenue pumping into your own arena and improve your product. Different story if Gores didn't own the Palace, but he does.

[Warspite]

I don't know why you're stuck on this "Detroit will never be New York" thing; it doesn't have to be. As was already stated, there's a good reason teams are moving downtown across the league. No one is claiming that putting a crappy team downtown means automatic sell outs. All that was stated was that you can guarantee that a marginal team playing in an area of activity where more people go on a consistent basis will outdraw that same team in an area where no one goes unless they're going there only to see the team. The Pistons don't have to sell out in order for the business case to support moving them downtown. If projected revenue minus cost with the team downtown is higher than revenue minus cost with the team in Auburn Hills, you move the team if you're a smart businessman.

You know what--I've got a great idea for a fantastic new restaurant! Think I should put it in the entertainment district downtown or up on M24 toward Lake Orion? What do you think draws more people--a place like Cheli's by Ford Field/Comerica Park, or a better value restaurant near the Palace? The quality of the team is going to change or not change regardless of where they're located. A move to downtown presents the opportunity for higher revenue due to being in an area with more to do.

Your forgetting or omitting the costs differences. Im sure it would cost a fraction to build a restaurant outside of town and the red tape would be a fraction outside of the city. Not having to pay city taxes and bribe officals is an added savings. You also have to know where your customers are. No point in putting the store downtown when your customers live in Oakland. I want to be where the money is so I see no point in going into the city. I mean your bucking against 50 yrs of Michigan history. If you want to be successful you leave the city and go to the burbs.

Its such a big cost to add 500 people to a game. Will this new Red Wings Arena even house 20k people? If it has fewer seats than the Palace what is the point again to move? The Red Wings are downtown only because of its proximity to Canada. Red Wings fans dont live downtown in fact most of them dont live in Michigan.

[Manocad]

I'm not forgetting or omitting squat. I said right off the bat that if it made financial sense to move the Pistons downtown then you could be damn sure they would be.

For the record I have a degree in mechanical engineering and a degree in business management and have been managing business for twenty years. All in Detroit, so maybe I might have an idea of what I'm talking about.

But whatever. It's a speculation thread and we've said our piece.

[Pharaoh]

What would take the place of the Pistons at the Palace for 41 home games if they moved downtown?

I haven't read the whole thread so maybe this was addressed but it seems to be the elephant in the room.

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[WC NBA Fan]

What would take the place of the Pistons at the Palace for 41 home games if they moved downtown?

I haven't read the whole thread so maybe this was addressed but it seems to be the elephant in the room.

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This is actually the crux of my argument in favor of the Pistons moving downtown but keeping the Palace as a backup venue. Keep in mind that the Palace hosts 200 events a year. When Gores bought the team, the Palace was valued at roughly the same as what the Pistons were so that's why he demanded the two as a package. With so many sporting events taking place downtown assuming the Pistons did move downtown, the Palace would be in position to get even more events due to the downtown arena being booked so often with sporting events.

Another thing to consider is this. If the Pistons stay at the Palace, a lot of non sporting acts are going to choose the brand new arena over the Palace. With the Wings having 41 games downtown and Pistons having 41 at the Palace, there will be an even amount of open dates and they'll choose the newer place. It wasn't like that before because the only competition to the Palace was the lousy JLA. Now that the Palace has real competition, it's value will go down.

OTOH, if the Pistons and Red Wings are hogging up so many nights downtown, the Palace and the new arena will almost work as a tandem instead of as rivals trying out bid each other. Acts wanting to book in Detroit will have an option in the Palace on nights when the downtown arena is booked. Gores or whoever the owner is will essentially be making money in 2 areas. Basketball operations downtown and non Piston events at the Palace. This will help justify all the money Gores poured into renovating the Palace as well. With the current setup, he'll be losing a lot of non Piston events to the new place. That's something that these pro Palace journalists are missing when writing their stories.

[WC NBA Fan]

I don't know why you're stuck on this "Detroit will never be New York" thing; it doesn't have to be. As was already stated, there's a good reason teams are moving downtown across the league. No one is claiming that putting a crappy team downtown means automatic sell outs. All that was stated was that you can guarantee that a marginal team playing in an area of activity where more people go on a consistent basis will outdraw that same team in an area where no one goes unless they're going there only to see the team. The Pistons don't have to sell out in order for the business case to support moving them downtown. If projected revenue minus cost with the team downtown is higher than revenue minus cost with the team in Auburn Hills, you move the team if you're a smart businessman.

You know what--I've got a great idea for a fantastic new restaurant! Think I should put it in the entertainment district downtown or up on M24 toward Lake Orion? What do you think draws more people--a place like Cheli's by Ford Field/Comerica Park, or a better value restaurant near the Palace? The quality of the team is going to change or not change regardless of where they're located. A move to downtown presents the opportunity for higher revenue due to being in an area with more to do.

Your forgetting or omitting the costs differences. Im sure it would cost a fraction to build a restaurant outside of town and the red tape would be a fraction outside of the city. Not having to pay city taxes and bribe officals is an added savings. You also have to know where your customers are. No point in putting the store downtown when your customers live in Oakland. I want to be where the money is so I see no point in going into the city. I mean your bucking against 50 yrs of Michigan history. If you want to be successful you leave the city and go to the burbs.

Its such a big cost to add 500 people to a game. Will this new Red Wings Arena even house 20k people? If it has fewer seats than the Palace what is the point again to move? The Red Wings are downtown only because of its proximity to Canada. Red Wings fans dont live downtown in fact most of them dont live in Michigan.

The new place will seat 20,000 for hockey. That means that it can house anywhere from 20,500 to 21,000 for basketball so they'll be losing 500 to 1,000 a night but that means nothing nowadays. Sacramento and the Warriors are actually building smaller buildings with better sight lines so that they can charge more for tickets in the upper deck. It winds up evening things out.

This new arena will have similar sight lines to the Palace so the Pistons don't get any benefit there but let's be honest, how often will the Pistons be selling out? Not a lot while they're struggling but at least downtown, you're near the big businesses who buy tickets and give them out to employees, parking people, security guards and what not. You are essentially more sustainable downtown during down years because of that. When you're winning, you'll sellout regardless of where the arena is. If the Pistons could guarantee that they will be championship contenders every year then that's one thing but nobody can do that.

When you're halfway to Flint and in the middle of nowhere, it's much hard to sustain during the down years. It's not a coincidence that the Palace is the emptiest arena in the league these last few years. There are a lot of bad teams in the NBA but they have less empty seats due to downtown proximity. It has nothing to do with our fans being worse. It's about being in the middle of nowhere.

[WC NBA Fan]

Honestly I dont mind them staying put,I dont mind the drive and it isnt so cramped feeling when you go there.

Can you imagine what a nightmare it would be for a Sunday game if the Lions are home, the Tigers are in the playoffs, and the Pistons had a Sunday afternoon game?

the traffic alone would drive you nuts.

But that scenario would rarely happen. Even if it did, that's sort of what Detroit wants. Part of the reason to have all of our teams downtown is to bring people in, get them to spend money and help the city rebound. Traffic nightmares is actually something we want.