Political Roundtable - Part VI

[fishercob]

It's a little bit of a "boy who cried wolf" problem for the Republicans in office and in the press. When you treat The President with complete disdain and disrespect -- be it "you lie!!" during the State of the F*cking Union,

Gimme a freakin' break. It was Obama who was WAY out of line there, chastising the Supreme Court in the middle of a State of the Union Address. No other president in recent memory was so crass.

constantly referring to his his middle name derisively, or this, this, this, etc. -- it becomes a little harder for me to take your legitimate criticisms seriously.

Seriously? That's the best you could come up with? Out of a hundred million Republicans, you can find one random protestor, some low level California county GOP party member, and some Arizona radio host that nobody has ever head of? This absolutely pales in comparison to the abuse Bush took by much more prominent Democrats.

On the SOTU, if the POTUS is out of line, you wait for the appropriate time and place to respond. There is no other answer.

Yes, nate33. That's the best I could come up with in the 3 minutes I decided to put the post together. I know better than trying to change people's minds with long dissertations. If you don't believe that a great many of Obama haters are fueled by racism, there certainly isn't anything I could say to change your mind.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ogOQ89kT0[/youtube]

[nate33]

On the SOTU, if the POTUS is out of line, you wait for the appropriate time and place to respond. There is no other answer.

It doesn't work that way. The Supreme Court has no public relations department. They don't defend themselves. It's up to the other two branches to respect the separation of powers and not attack them. Obama failed to do so, so the Legislature is the only one who can respond. Joe Wilson did. Again, it was Obama who crossed the line. If he is going to act crassly, he can expect a crass response.

[fishercob]

I don't understand the problem with the concept that "I want progressive policy initiatives, directed by Pres. Obama" to fail (preferably before there're implemented). With one or two exceptions, I think most all of his policy initiatives have failed or will fail in the next year or two. I wish Bush had failed in his request to get congress' permission to attack Iraq. I don't get it.

Now if Obama had pushed for charter schools or some other policy that conservatives support then we would have wished for his success.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-A09a_gHJc[/youtube]

It's good enough political strategy (although it failed), but it's crappy governance. "We'll do nothing for the next 4 years so the people will blame the President and we can take the WH back." Not really my style.

The Obama administration has been disgustingly in bed with big Ag and big Pharma. Republicans should like that. He appointed the former VP of Monsanto as the head of the FDA. Disgusting and unforgivable, IMO.

[popper]

I don't understand the problem with the concept that "I want progressive policy initiatives, directed by Pres. Obama" to fail (preferably before there're implemented). With one or two exceptions, I think most all of his policy initiatives have failed or will fail in the next year or two. I wish Bush had failed in his request to get congress' permission to attack Iraq. I don't get it.

Now if Obama had pushed for charter schools or some other policy that conservatives support then we would have wished for his success.

The Affordable Care Act is a collection of conservative ideas. It grew out of conservative think tanks. Much the same program was implemented in Massachusetts by a Republican governor, who became the GOP's nominee for president in 2012. How many times have House Republicans voted to repeal it?

Many times, but as I've stated since the beginning of the ACA, it has virtually no chance of succeeding because of its flawed design and complexity. If I'm not mistaken, you have given the same reasons for its troubled implementation and questionable future. If I were a Mass. resident I would have hoped that Romney would have failed as well. No doubt some of the ideas contained in ACA were proposed by R's in the past. The logic behind some of their ideas was flawed. There is a much cleaner and more elegant way of subsidizing health insurance for the needy. ACA was much more than that and thus it will fail spectacularly.

[fishercob]

On the SOTU, if the POTUS is out of line, you wait for the appropriate time and place to respond. There is no other answer.

It doesn't work that way. The Supreme Court has no public relations department. They don't defend themselves. It's up to the other two branches to respect the separation of powers and not attack them. Obama failed to do so, so the Legislature is the only one who can respond. Joe Wilson did. Again, it was Obama who crossed the line. If he is going to act crassly, he can expect a crass response.

What's the SCOTUS connection?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgce06Yw2ro[/youtube]

[nate33]

My biggest disappointment in this election cycle is that the Republicans are going to gain seats only by default. Nobody is voting FOR Republicans because they suck too. The voters are merely less AGAINST Republicans than they are against Democrats. It's a sad state of affairs.

I wish the Republicans actually ran on some principled beliefs rather than merely being not as awful as the other guy.

[popper]

Yeah, those evil racist Republicans keep using scary race tactics to energize their voter base:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLq6CyzAqd4[/youtube]

Rangel was half right Nate. Republicans did win the civil war and that's how we ended slavery.

[nate33]

On the SOTU, if the POTUS is out of line, you wait for the appropriate time and place to respond. There is no other answer.

It doesn't work that way. The Supreme Court has no public relations department. They don't defend themselves. It's up to the other two branches to respect the separation of powers and not attack them. Obama failed to do so, so the Legislature is the only one who can respond. Joe Wilson did. Again, it was Obama who crossed the line. If he is going to act crassly, he can expect a crass response.

What's the SCOTUS connection?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgce06Yw2ro[/youtube]

Sorry, fish. I was mixing up Scalia's "not true" with Wilson's "you lie".

As it turns out, Wilson may have been rude, but he was proven right:
"You Lie," Has Been Vindicated

[fishercob]

It doesn't work that way. The Supreme Court has no public relations department. They don't defend themselves. It's up to the other two branches to respect the separation of powers and not attack them. Obama failed to do so, so the Legislature is the only one who can respond. Joe Wilson did. Again, it was Obama who crossed the line. If he is going to act crassly, he can expect a crass response.

What's the SCOTUS connection?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgce06Yw2ro[/youtube]

Sorry, fish. I was mixing up Scalia's "not true" with Wilson's "you lie".

As it turns out, Wilson may have been rude, but he was proven right:
"You Lie," Has Been Vindicated

Not the point. Not the point at all.

There's a time and a place and that disrespect during the SOTU -- unthinkable during any other SOTU In my lifetime -- is a microcosm for what Obama has been working with during his entire presidency.

[popper]

What's the SCOTUS connection?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgce06Yw2ro[/youtube]

Sorry, fish. I was mixing up Scalia's "not true" with Wilson's "you lie".

As it turns out, Wilson may have been rude, but he was proven right:
"You Lie," Has Been Vindicated

Not the point. Not the point at all.

There's a time and a place and that disrespect during the SOTU -- unthinkable during any other SOTU In my lifetime -- is a microcosm for what Obama has been working with during his entire presidency.

A President that tells a bald faced lie on national television during the SOTU address (or during other important national speeches, think Obamacare if you will) is not deserving of my respect Fish. You're probably more forgiving than I am in that regard. Would I prefer Wilson waited until after the speech. Yes. But I have trouble holding my tongue as well when a national leader lies to my face.

[Nivek]

I don't understand the problem with the concept that "I want progressive policy initiatives, directed by Pres. Obama" to fail (preferably before there're implemented). With one or two exceptions, I think most all of his policy initiatives have failed or will fail in the next year or two. I wish Bush had failed in his request to get congress' permission to attack Iraq. I don't get it.

Now if Obama had pushed for charter schools or some other policy that conservatives support then we would have wished for his success.

The Affordable Care Act is a collection of conservative ideas. It grew out of conservative think tanks. Much the same program was implemented in Massachusetts by a Republican governor, who became the GOP's nominee for president in 2012. How many times have House Republicans voted to repeal it?

Many times, but as I've stated since the beginning of the ACA, it has virtually no chance of succeeding because of its flawed design and complexity. If I'm not mistaken, you have given the same reasons for its troubled implementation and questionable future. If I were a Mass. resident I would have hoped that Romney would have failed as well. No doubt some of the ideas contained in ACA were proposed by R's in the past. The logic behind some of their ideas was flawed. There is a much cleaner and more elegant way of subsidizing health insurance for the needy. ACA was much more than that and thus it will fail spectacularly.

You and I agree on ACA, but that wasn't the issue. The assertion you made was that the GOP would support Obama if he had a conservative policy. Well, ACA is a collection of conservative ideas that had previously been implemented by a conservative, and the GOP opposed passage of the bill, voted to repeal it umpteen times, and called it socialism.

[popper]

The Affordable Care Act is a collection of conservative ideas. It grew out of conservative think tanks. Much the same program was implemented in Massachusetts by a Republican governor, who became the GOP's nominee for president in 2012. How many times have House Republicans voted to repeal it?

Many times, but as I've stated since the beginning of the ACA, it has virtually no chance of succeeding because of its flawed design and complexity. If I'm not mistaken, you have given the same reasons for its troubled implementation and questionable future. If I were a Mass. resident I would have hoped that Romney would have failed as well. No doubt some of the ideas contained in ACA were proposed by R's in the past. The logic behind some of their ideas was flawed. There is a much cleaner and more elegant way of subsidizing health insurance for the needy. ACA was much more than that and thus it will fail spectacularly.

You and I agree on ACA, but that wasn't the issue. The assertion you made was that the GOP would support Obama if he had a conservative policy. Well, ACA is a collection of conservative ideas that had previously been implemented by a conservative, and the GOP opposed passage of the bill, voted to repeal it umpteen times, and called it socialism.

I can only speak for myself Nivek. I have no way of knowing whether some percentage of R's secretly wanted the D-only version of ACA to pass, but then voted against it out of dislike for Obama. As stupid as our pols are it's possible that there were a few. However I suspect they probably opposed it because they thought they would catch hell from their conservative constituents more so than out of personal animosity toward the President.

[Zonkerbl]

My biggest disappointment in this election cycle is that the Republicans are going to gain seats only by default. Nobody is voting FOR Republicans because they suck too. The voters are merely less AGAINST Republicans than they are against Democrats. It's a sad state of affairs.

I wish the Republicans actually ran on some principled beliefs rather than merely being not as awful as the other guy.

This is more or less what I was saying a few pages earlier. I don't actually hate the Republican agenda, it's just I feel the Republicans are getting sidetracked by personal animosity. Put your personal grievances aside and govern.

[Zonkerbl]

Popper you speak with forked tongue. The ACA was written by and for Republicans. It was an attempt by the Dems to be bipartisan and the Republicans SPIT on them. Worst example of partisan childishness I have seen my entire life.

[Zonkerbl]

Great, Republicans take over. Time to get dragged into another unnecessary oil war.

Well, that's if the old guard Republicans manage to retake the reins. If the Tea Partiers take over I'm getting ready for the zombie apocalypse.

[dckingsfan]

My biggest disappointment in this election cycle is that the Republicans are going to gain seats only by default. Nobody is voting FOR Republicans because they suck too. The voters are merely less AGAINST Republicans than they are against Democrats. It's a sad state of affairs.

I wish the Republicans actually ran on some principled beliefs rather than merely being not as awful as the other guy.

I think it keeps rebounding because NEITHER the Rs or Ds can govern effectively at this point. And I think the majority of voters are actually against both parties at this time.

I don't see either party with a good plan to get us out of this mess.

[dckingsfan]

Wow - I didn't think it would be that one-sided... I think it can only go one of two ways.

Obama and the Rs get together and do some meaningful reform on areas where they have some agreement.

Or total deadlock through the elections. I think that it is on the Rs to offer up a plan now. I don't think Obama has the tailwind to get anything done at this point.

What am I missing?

[popper]

Popper you speak with forked tongue. The ACA was written by and for Republicans. It was an attempt by the Dems to be bipartisan and the Republicans SPIT on them. Worst example of partisan childishness I have seen my entire life.

The ACA was written by Republicans? I thought it was written and negotiated behind closed doors exclusively by Democrats. If my memory is correct, Republican were not even allowed a single amendment to the bill.

[Nivek]

I don't think you're missing much. I think the election results reflect a combination of dissatisfaction and lack of choice. Man we need a third party in this country.

[dobrojim]

given the performance of each of the 2 main parties, it's easy to understand
a wish for some other alternative. But be careful what you wish for. There
are notable examples of countries with > 2 parties where some fringe group 3rd
party ends up being KingMaker and effs things up just as bad or worse than the
2 parties do.