[NYK/BOS/LAC] - Rondo - Hardaway Jr - Shumpert

[Lindecision]

Theoretically yes. 2 late first round picks is enough value for Shump. But I don't think those guys have the upside to justify taking on their additional salary next season. C.J Wilcox isn't going to take minutes away from J.R Smith or Tim Hardaway Jr. Reggie Bullock isn't going to take away minutes from Carmelo Anthony. So what's the point of bringing them in. Shumpert got more upside than both and if he doesn't turn his career around we can just cut him loose.

1) You won't be taking on additional salary because Bullock and Wilcox (or Early 2 out of those 3 guys) will be attached to JR Smith and traded for cap space.

2) Hardaway Jr won't be on the team he'll be moved to Boston with the pick for Rondo.

3) Shumpert won't be on the team either. His cap hold and the fact that he's a RFA gets in the way of signing Gasol and Rondo.

[Lindecision]

These are two separate deals that don't make sense in conjunction with one another. The C's aren't going to let Rondo go for this cheap, and if for whatever reason they did, why would the Knicks give away Shumpert in the same deal that they are losing THJ?

1) They will because Rondo is leaving for a contender at the end of the season anyway.

2) Because in order for the Knicks to create the cap space they need to sign Gasol and Rondo to play with Melo, they need to renounce Shumpert. His cap hold and the fact that he's a RFA gets in the way of that.

[Lindecision]

not sure if it even legal for clipper to pay to waive barganani but even if it was why would they give up the cash for shumpert? also no way boston moves rondo for hardaway

also rondo lack of shooting ability makes him a horrible fit in the triangle

I don't see why not. Cash considerations are legal. The Knicks would pay a larger percentage than the Clippers to waive Bargnani because they're the ones getting Rondo and have incentive.

Its also too presumptuous to say that Rondo is a horrible fit in the triangle just because he can't shoot. We've never seen him in the triangle. He could be a perfect fit. He is good enough and smart enough to work in any system.

[Lindecision]

Yes that's exactly what it means. If the pick is likely to be in the 20s then it's not worth it to Boston to trade their only star player. Just because it's unprotected doesn't mean it's valuable. You have to consider the likelihood that it's a back end pick, which is high, and that discounts it's value considerably. Boston has the Clippers 2015 unprotected first, but it's not worth all that much given that the Clippers are going to end up with a great record (barring massive injuries). Same applies here. It's not likely to be a strong lotto pick, so it's not enough even with Hardaway Jr., who is a solid wing prospect, but projects out as a bench player/6th-7th man (for me at least).

And it's a possibility that Rondo leaves for nothing, but by no means a foregone conclusion. He has expressed interest in staying around long term and potentially an extension. Additionally they could very well find a much better trade offer down the line, especially if Rondo plays extremely well. No reason to settle for this lowball offer now.

Its a foregone conclusion. Rondo expressed interest in staying because that's what he's supposed to say. Its all just part of the dance it has no bearing on the situation. He has no interest in staying unless they can build a contender, which is almost impossible. Hardaway Jr projects to be much better than a 6th man by the way. He'll be a starting wing in this league. The Celtics just don't have that killer asset they can flip for a contending player. They have Smart, Sullinger, Olynyk, all their own picks and those Brooklyn picks.

That would be enough if this was 2007 and you could trade Al Jefferson and parts/picks for KG in his prime. But its 2014. Teams are smarter and its a different CBA. The Celtics were really unlucky though. Landing outside the top 5 took them out of the Kevin Love sweepstakes. With Lebron, Love and Aldridge all off the table the 2015 free agent class isn't great. Unfortunately for Boston, Rondo became a free agent at the wrong time. He can be part of a better team by leaving as opposed to recruiting.

[cl2117]

Yes that's exactly what it means. If the pick is likely to be in the 20s then it's not worth it to Boston to trade their only star player. Just because it's unprotected doesn't mean it's valuable. You have to consider the likelihood that it's a back end pick, which is high, and that discounts it's value considerably. Boston has the Clippers 2015 unprotected first, but it's not worth all that much given that the Clippers are going to end up with a great record (barring massive injuries). Same applies here. It's not likely to be a strong lotto pick, so it's not enough even with Hardaway Jr., who is a solid wing prospect, but projects out as a bench player/6th-7th man (for me at least).

And it's a possibility that Rondo leaves for nothing, but by no means a foregone conclusion. He has expressed interest in staying around long term and potentially an extension. Additionally they could very well find a much better trade offer down the line, especially if Rondo plays extremely well. No reason to settle for this lowball offer now.

Its a foregone conclusion. Rondo expressed interest in staying because that's what he's supposed to say. Its all just part of the dance it has no bearing on the situation. He has no interest in staying unless they can build a contender, which is almost impossible. Hardaway Jr projects to be much better than a 6th man by the way. He'll be a starting wing in this league. The Celtics just don't have that killer asset they can flip for a contending player. They have Smart, Sullinger, Olynyk, all their own picks and those Brooklyn picks.

That would be enough if this was 2007 and you could trade Al Jefferson and parts/picks for KG in his prime. But its 2014. Teams are smarter and its a different CBA. The Celtics were really unlucky though. Landing outside the top 5 took them out of the Kevin Love sweepstakes. With Lebron, Love and Aldridge all off the table the 2015 free agent class isn't great. Unfortunately for Boston, Rondo became a free agent at the wrong time. He can be part of a better team by leaving as opposed to recruiting.

It's by no means a foregone conclusion. It's a definite possibility, but you have no idea how this season is going to shake out and to say that the Celtics don't have a "killer asset" to flip for a contending player is ridiculous given that they're in line for a solid lottery pick this year, just drafted Smart #6 overall and have more unprotected picks than they know what to do with. If Hardaway Jr. and a 2018 unprotected first (likely in the 20s) is enough value to get Rondo, in your mind at least, then how does a package of Smart and one or two of their many unprotected future firsts (2015/2016 (theirs and Brooklyn)/2017(swap provision as well)/2018 (theirs and Brooklyn) not enough to get a contending player? And that is just a portion of their overall assets.

The bottom line though, regardless of whether you think Rondo would resign or whether it is a foregone conclusion that he is leaving, Hardaway Jr. and a late 2018 first is just not nearly enough for Rondo. I think it's debatable whether or not Hardaway Jr. projects to be better than a scoring 2 off the bench, but he is most certainly not a prospect with a high enough ceiling to warrant him being the centerpiece for a contending player like Rondo. He just isn't. And you've admitted yourself that that Knicks pick isn't likely to end up being anything special (top 10 or even lotto). So even if Rondo is definitely going to walk, why would Boston settle for this package? Other posters have backed me up in that it's not enough, why do they settle for this when they've already got a backlog at SG and more than enough future firsts?

If the option was this or nothing, yeah you'd take this, but that's not the case. I think there is a chance that Rondo sticks around, but even excluding that possibility, they could find a much better package elsewhere. If this is the type of value that they are getting back they could at least look to get better fitting pieces or at least one single piece with really high upside (I don't think Hardaway Jr. is that, he wouldn't be in my top 10 if they redrafted his class and that 2018 first isn't like the Nets picks with potential because of their cap issues).

Boston isn't backed up against a wall to the point that you can get Rondo for this kind of package.

[Lindecision]

It's by no means a foregone conclusion. It's a definite possibility, but you have no idea how this season is going to shake out and to say that the Celtics don't have a "killer asset" to flip for a contending player is ridiculous given that they're in line for a solid lottery pick this year, just drafted Smart #6 overall and have more unprotected picks than they know what to do with. If Hardaway Jr. and a 2018 unprotected first (likely in the 20s) is enough value to get Rondo, in your mind at least, then how does a package of Smart and one or two of their many unprotected future firsts (2015/2016 (theirs and Brooklyn)/2017(swap provision as well)/2018 (theirs and Brooklyn) not enough to get a contending player? And that is just a portion of their overall assets.

The bottom line though, regardless of whether you think Rondo would resign or whether it is a foregone conclusion that he is leaving, Hardaway Jr. and a late 2018 first is just not nearly enough for Rondo. I think it's debatable whether or not Hardaway Jr. projects to be better than a scoring 2 off the bench, but he is most certainly not a prospect with a high enough ceiling to warrant him being the centerpiece for a contending player like Rondo. He just isn't. And you've admitted yourself that that Knicks pick isn't likely to end up being anything special (top 10 or even lotto). So even if Rondo is definitely going to walk, why would Boston settle for this package? Other posters have backed me up in that it's not enough, why do they settle for this when they've already got a backlog at SG and more than enough future firsts?

If the option was this or nothing, yeah you'd take this, but that's not the case. I think there is a chance that Rondo sticks around, but even excluding that possibility, they could find a much better package elsewhere. If this is the type of value that they are getting back they could at least look to get better fitting pieces or at least one single piece with really high upside (I don't think Hardaway Jr. is that, he wouldn't be in my top 10 if they redrafted his class and that 2018 first isn't like the Nets picks with potential because of their cap issues).

Boston isn't backed up against a wall to the point that you can get Rondo for this kind of package.

Nah, its a foregone conclusion. The contending players that might have been available are already off the table. Adding 2nd tier guys like Millsap or maxing out RFAs like Leonard or Butler simply won't move the needle. Rondo will know that. If you think the Celtics can trade for contending players under contract, then name them. I've been through the rosters and I don't see any. Those players are only available when they want to be, like if they're disgruntled for whatever reason. Like Love was. Like Aldridge was. Those players don't exist right now.

You say the Celtics can get a much better deal elsewhere, but where? I really don't think they will. And with the PG market so crowded they're pretty close to being backed up against a wall. Most teams already have a good PG, especially the playoff teams that Rondo is looking to be part of. A prospect and a 1st is pretty much where its at. Teams that will have cap space don't have incentive to offer much. The Knicks having cap space acts as a disincentive for those teams. Makes no sense for bad teams to trade for him either as he'll just leave. There just aren't many suitors bidding against each other, which brings the price down. If you go through some of the rosters you'll realize what I'm saying.

The Knicks have cap space. No on can deny that playing with a superstar like Melo in one of the biggest markets in the league is Rondo's most attractive free agent option. Detroit have cap space, but they continue to be a dysfuntional mess, and Drummond is 5 years away from his prime. The Kings are capped out so they have incentive to sign-and-trade in the offseason, but their 1st belongs to Chicago and I can't imagine Rondo wanting to play there anyway. Dallas are playing Nelson, Harris, Barea and Felton so they have a need at PG, but they're capped out and don't have the pieces to get it done either.

Houston is the one that sticks out. Beverly is their PG who is a defensive stopper that can hit some 3's. Starting Rondo and having Beverly come off the bench would be a clear upgrade. But does Houston feel the same way? Rondo and Harden both like to dominate the ball. They've had a great start and their chemistry looks better than last season, so their team appears to be set for this season. They have the pieces to make it happen in Terry, Papanikolaou and the Pelicans 1st, but they look really good so its highly unlikely Houston make a major move mid-season.

[skflives]

Theoretically yes. 2 late first round picks is enough value for Shump. But I don't think those guys have the upside to justify taking on their additional salary next season. C.J Wilcox isn't going to take minutes away from J.R Smith or Tim Hardaway Jr. Reggie Bullock isn't going to take away minutes from Carmelo Anthony. So what's the point of bringing them in. Shumpert got more upside than both and if he doesn't turn his career around we can just cut him loose.

1) You won't be taking on additional salary because Bullock and Wilcox (or Early 2 out of those 3 guys) will be attached to JR Smith and traded for cap space.

2) Hardaway Jr won't be on the team he'll be moved to Boston with the pick for Rondo.

3) Shumpert won't be on the team either. His cap hold and the fact that he's a RFA gets in the way of signing Gasol and Rondo.

That's assuming this deal is enough to get us Rondo. I don't think it is so I am focusing on the Shumpert to the Clippers part of the deal. And no, there is no justification for that deal.