RealGM Top 100 List #50

[Moonbeam]

Through post #52:

Alex English (2) - penbeast0, ronnymac2

Pau Gasol (2) - john248, RayBan-Sematra

Allen Iverson (3) - Basketballefan, Joao Saraiva, E-Balla

Adrian Dantley (2) - Clyde Frazier, Moonbeam

Robert Parish (1) - trex_8063

Dominique Wilkins (1) - JordansBulls

Bill Walton (1) - Notanoob

Fixed. E-Balla voted Iverson (post #9).
Would still like to see a vote from Quotatious, fplii, Owly, Doctor MJ, Chuck Texas.

I like Dantley, Gasol and Parish here of the above.

Do you guys think we should reconsider Thurmond soon-ish? Or is the offense still holding him back?

I'd like to hear a lot more about him, but I think he's a solid candidate soon. His defense was very, very potent. I know you're a big Thurmond guy, so I'd be very keen to see your discussion of him!

[colts18]

For the Iverson guys, Do you think he is a better offensive player than Kevin Johnson? I don't see how you can rank AI ahead of Johnson if the answer is no because KJ was better defensively, had a similar length prime, better player in his prime.

[ceiling raiser]

Pick one, imo.
While the discussion is the larger point, nonetheless where the resulting list is concerned, I don't think the project benefits from solid knowledgeable posters finding reason to abstain from the vote.

Do you guys think we should reconsider Thurmond soon-ish? Or is the offense still holding him back?

Probably somewhat soon-ish. Offense and average-ish longevity are certainly holding him back. Though sometimes it just takes one person sort of breaking the ice on a new nominee, and others supporters come to the surface.

Well, it's just a bit difficult for me to cast a vote, when there's a good degree of unknown. It is my responsibility to watch tape and do research myself, but I don't feel as comfortable voting for someone with whom I'm not well acquainted. I'll try and cast more definitive votes though (possibly here if I have time before the deadline) as I understand your point about having a resulting list about which we can be confident.

I'd like to hear a lot more about him, but I think he's a solid candidate soon. His defense was very, very potent. I know you're a big Thurmond guy, so I'd be very keen to see your discussion of him!

Not sure how helpful it would be, but here's my first post on him:

viewtopic.php?p=41219896#p41219896

and a brief follow-up:

viewtopic.php?p=41290348#p41290348

I think Samurai and johnlac1 discussed him awhile back in one of the threads on vintage players (pen also posted a bit as well in the project threads).

[Texas Chuck]

Official Vote: Robert Parish

I still think Cowens was a fair bit better player, but its hard to ignore that longevity. Never missed more than 10 games in the first 20 years of his career. And he was like a metrodome(sp) in terms of his consistency. He was going to give you 18/10 or thereabouts for near as a decade and a half with several more very productive years in his late 30's on reduced minutes. Made 9 all-star teams and even finished top 5 in MVP voting once. Overshadowed by some other players in Boston--most noticably Bird, but this guy was a really good player for a really long time. In a career ranking I give him the nod over Cowens for the last spot of the top 50.

Thanks to those who have discussed him in this project for making sure I didn't overlook the Chief.

[trex_8063]

For the Iverson guys, Do you think he is a better offensive player than Kevin Johnson? I don't see how you can rank AI ahead of Johnson if the answer is no because KJ was better defensively, had a similar length prime, better player in his prime.

Somewhat difficult comparison to me, because so dissimilar. KJ was much more close to the prototypical PG (well, Iverson was more of SG, actually), and had MUCH lower usage.

And btw, I disagree that KJ was better defensively, at least by any appreciable degree.

Overall, their quality during prime or peak years is pretty comparable. For now, I rank Iverson higher based on performing at a similar click, but for consistently larger mpg, and also the better longevity: you mentioned "similar" length prime, which I suppose is true. Though "similar" /= "same". If we call KJ's prime '89 thru '97 (9 seasons, 599 rs games), Iverson's would be '99-'08 (10 seasons, 673 rs games). And then outside of prime, KJ has just 136 rs games played, vs. 241 for Iverson.

Will try to get around to some impact studies (similar to how I did for Iverson) soon.

[penbeast0]

Alex English (2) - penbeast0, ronnymac2

Pau Gasol (2) - john248, RayBan-Sematra

Allen Iverson (3) - Basketballefan, Joao Saraiva, E-Balla

Adrian Dantley (2) - Clyde Frazier, Moonbeam

Robert Parish (3) - trex_8063, Owly, Chuck Texas

Dominique Wilkins (1) - JordansBulls

Bill Walton (1) - Notanoob

Kevin Johnson (1) colts18

Well, it looks like Iverson v. Parish. I value the team sacrifice, defense, and rebounding that Parish gives more than the scoring splash that Iverson adds so in that runoff, I will vote Robert Parish.

[Moonbeam]

Very cool to see the votes spread out so much. It's a testament to both how many good candidates there are at this point in the list and how difficult it is to stratify players as we move away from players who were consistently dominant for a long time.

Vote for Robert Parish. He was an ironman and a consistently important contributor to multiple great Celtic teams. His Score+ metrics look particularly good in Boston (though I think a fair amount of credit for that can be given to the quality of his teammates improving after leaving Golden State), but regardless, he was a big plus with his scoring and a big plus with his defense as well. When Bird went down in 1988-89, Parish had a fantastic season nonetheless. Iverson is the flashier player and carried a much heavier offensive load, but I'm not sure how much more of a positive impact he had on that end, and Parish clearly has a huge advantage on defense.

[RSCD3_]

Vote: Robert parish

Reasons:

Better longevity

More portable; could provide high quality offense without using a lot of possessions,

Very good defensive ability

Easier to build into a team dynamic


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[Doctor MJ]

Runoff Vote: Robert Parish

Parish was a very solid player for a very long time. I wasn't particularly eager to champion him compared to some of the other guys left, but he has a case against all of them.

And yeah, Iverson's not really on my radar.

[Joao Saraiva]

Seems like Allen Iverson will be in the run off for something like 10 spots. Oh well.

About the Kevin Johnson vs Allen Iverson comparison...

MVP awards:
Iverosn 1
KJ 0

MVP top 5 voting:
Iverson 3
KJ 0

All-Star games:
Iverson 11
KJ 3

Iverson won rookie of the year and KJ didn't.

So in terms of accodales, I think Iverson is miles ahead, and I believe there is a reason for that: Iverson was MVP material or top 5 player in the league material. Johnson wasn't. And that's no fluke.

I think people are dismissing the fact that AI carried crap teams with a ton of volume in scoring, elite APG for a SG, and people are underrating Iverson a lot on the defensive end. Why do people talk like he was a bad defender? That's absolutely not true.

[ceiling raiser]

Runoff Vote: Robert Parish

Parish was a very solid player for a very long time. I wasn't particularly eager to champion him compared to some of the other guys left, but he has a case against all of them.

And yeah, Iverson's not really on my radar.

Same. I'll also be voting for Parish here. I think Iverson's shooting percentages belie his offensive impact a bit (I'm sure when we have reliable RAPM for 01 and 02 he'll rate very, very favorably), but he's not a player I would select to be the foundation of my franchise. There are a few remaining players on the board who I think more positively impact their teams' chances of winning

Parish had a nice rainbow shot, was more than a capable finisher, and is a guy I'm comfortable with crediting for those Celtics defenses. McHale was terrific on that end as well, as were Boston's supporting casts, but if I had to point to one guy, in terms of contesting/altering shots, from the tape I've seen, it'd be the Chief.

[john248]

Seems like Allen Iverson will be in the run off for something like 10 spots. Oh well.

About the Kevin Johnson vs Allen Iverson comparison...

MVP awards:
Iverosn 1
KJ 0

MVP top 5 voting:
Iverson 3
KJ 0

All-Star games:
Iverson 11
KJ 3

Iverson won rookie of the year and KJ didn't.

So in terms of accodales, I think Iverson is miles ahead, and I believe there is a reason for that: Iverson was MVP material or top 5 player in the league material. Johnson wasn't. And that's no fluke.

I think people are dismissing the fact that AI carried crap teams with a ton of volume in scoring, elite APG for a SG, and people are underrating Iverson a lot on the defensive end. Why do people talk like he was a bad defender? That's absolutely not true.

Just asking, but what seasons outside 01 were inside the top 5 for Iverson? He was a bit borderline in 99 and 00 though I generally considered him a top 10 guy.

[Joao Saraiva]

Seems like Allen Iverson will be in the run off for something like 10 spots. Oh well.

About the Kevin Johnson vs Allen Iverson comparison...

MVP awards:
Iverosn 1
KJ 0

MVP top 5 voting:
Iverson 3
KJ 0

All-Star games:
Iverson 11
KJ 3

Iverson won rookie of the year and KJ didn't.

So in terms of accodales, I think Iverson is miles ahead, and I believe there is a reason for that: Iverson was MVP material or top 5 player in the league material. Johnson wasn't. And that's no fluke.

I think people are dismissing the fact that AI carried crap teams with a ton of volume in scoring, elite APG for a SG, and people are underrating Iverson a lot on the defensive end. Why do people talk like he was a bad defender? That's absolutely not true.

Just asking, but what seasons outside 01 were inside the top 5 for Iverson? He was a bit borderline in 99 and 00 though I generally considered him a top 10 guy.

99, 01 and 06 have certainly got a case.

His 06 season gets really underrated because of the team record, but it surely wasn't Iverson's fault.

33 PPG 7.4 APG 3.2 RPG 25.9 PER 54.3ts%.

That's elite volume, elite playmaking and good efficiency there.

Dirk, Wade, LeBron and Kobe had better seasons. Shaq can be in the discussion but he played 59 games and his averages weren't at his greatest level anymore.

[tsherkin]

Vote Parish

Longevity, some solid volume seasons, two way impact, great resume. (On phone, sorry for lame post)

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Allen Iverson

This is really tough for me, because Parish has always been a guy I championed and recognized as an instrumental 2-way force on Boston. And I did that when I was a peak-centric poster. Now I've come to value longevity much more than in the past, and nobody beats Robert Parish in that category.

One thing to note about Parish is MPG. He only eclipsed 32 MPG 4 times in his career. Now in the playoffs, this was much less of an issue as he went past 32 MPG 11 times, so perhaps it can be looked past.

Parish was steady; Iverson was an uncatchable ball of energy. 94 feet wasn't enough for Iverson. Unstoppable force. Might be the most athletic player in history.

I'm going with Iverson. For a solid decade, he was one of the most dynamic offensive players ever. He's flawed, for sure, but what he did what still valuable.

[john248]

Seems like Allen Iverson will be in the run off for something like 10 spots. Oh well.

About the Kevin Johnson vs Allen Iverson comparison...

MVP awards:
Iverosn 1
KJ 0

MVP top 5 voting:
Iverson 3
KJ 0

All-Star games:
Iverson 11
KJ 3

Iverson won rookie of the year and KJ didn't.

So in terms of accodales, I think Iverson is miles ahead, and I believe there is a reason for that: Iverson was MVP material or top 5 player in the league material. Johnson wasn't. And that's no fluke.

I think people are dismissing the fact that AI carried crap teams with a ton of volume in scoring, elite APG for a SG, and people are underrating Iverson a lot on the defensive end. Why do people talk like he was a bad defender? That's absolutely not true.

Just asking, but what seasons outside 01 were inside the top 5 for Iverson? He was a bit borderline in 99 and 00 though I generally considered him a top 10 guy.

99, 01 and 06 have certainly got a case.

His 06 season gets really underrated because of the team record, but it surely wasn't Iverson's fault.

33 PPG 7.4 APG 3.2 RPG 25.9 PER 54.3ts%.

That's elite volume, elite playmaking and good efficiency there.

Dirk, Wade, LeBron and Kobe had better seasons. Shaq can be in the discussion but he played 59 games and his averages weren't at his greatest level anymore.

I don't keep a list, so thanks for the reply. But in 06, Nash, Garnett, and Lebron had strong years. AI was 10th in MVP voting that year, so just looking at it quickly, I personally wouldn't consider him top 5 for that season. Really, I don't see or hadn't viewed AI has a consistent top 5 player in the league which was why I asked. If he were, he'd have been voted in much earlier along with guys who were considered top 5 annually. But as it is, there was a drop off between him and some of his peers.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Official Vote: Robert Parish

I still think Cowens was a fair bit better player, but its hard to ignore that longevity. Never missed more than 10 games in the first 20 years of his career. And he was like a metrodome(sp) in terms of his consistency. He was going to give you 18/10 or thereabouts for near as a decade and a half with several more very productive years in his late 30's on reduced minutes. Made 9 all-star teams and even finished top 5 in MVP voting once. Overshadowed by some other players in Boston--most noticably Bird, but this guy was a really good player for a really long time. In a career ranking I give him the nod over Cowens for the last spot of the top 50.

Thanks to those who have discussed him in this project for making sure I didn't overlook the Chief.

I started Watching The Celtics attentively in the 1978-79 season when Cedric Maxwell was clearly the team's best player and the team was bad. I was old enough to have watched the Coweens championship teams attentively but I was more interested in the Bruins and the Celtics may have had a bad TV contract that did not show many games.

I have since then watched the videos of The Cowens led teams. It was interesting watching Cowens muscleing Jabar and disrupting Jabar's sky hook.

Cowens at age 31 was the Celtics primary Center backed by Robey on the 61 win Celtics team in Bird's Rookie year.

By 1980 Cowens looked like a power forward playing center.

Parish Was the Center in Bird's 2nd year and was a far better defensive center that Cowens had been the previous year. I don't think the Celtics could beat the 76ers with Cowens instead of Parish. Parish was a shot blocker and was taller and more mobile than 31 year old Cowens.


Parish was extremely important to the Bird era Celtics. There are never more than perhaps 3 centers in the league in any given year playing defensive center at the level of quality that Parish played at for the Celtics.

Parish's 19 points a game at 54% shooting during his first four years in Boston was an added bonus.

I don't know what happened with Parish with the Warriors. I don't know why the Warriors thought Joe Barry Carrol would be an upgrade over Parish.

[Joao Saraiva]

Just asking, but what seasons outside 01 were inside the top 5 for Iverson? He was a bit borderline in 99 and 00 though I generally considered him a top 10 guy.

99, 01 and 06 have certainly got a case.

His 06 season gets really underrated because of the team record, but it surely wasn't Iverson's fault.

33 PPG 7.4 APG 3.2 RPG 25.9 PER 54.3ts%.

That's elite volume, elite playmaking and good efficiency there.

Dirk, Wade, LeBron and Kobe had better seasons. Shaq can be in the discussion but he played 59 games and his averages weren't at his greatest level anymore.

I don't keep a list, so thanks for the reply. But in 06, Nash, Garnett, and Lebron had strong years. AI was 10th in MVP voting that year, so just looking at it quickly, I personally wouldn't consider him top 5 for that season. Really, I don't see or hadn't viewed AI has a consistent top 5 player in the league which was why I asked. If he were, he'd have been voted in much earlier along with guys who were considered top 5 annually. But as it is, there was a drop off between him and some of his peers.

Well, MVP votes go to guys with good records. Philadelphia missed the playoffs... but if we're going by MVP voting Iverson was top 5 3 years: 99, 01 and 05. I just think he was better in 06 than 05, despite team results being worse.

[DQuinn1575]

Vote for iverson far greater impact over parish. Parish was a very good player who played a long time. At best he was 3rd best player on champ team. Iverson could easily be number 2 guy on champ team


Iverson


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[RayBan-Sematra]

VOTE : Parish
He was a very good player who during his extended Prime gave you around 18 / 10 / 2 / 1.5bpg.
Those are very solid numbers considering he was always a low minute guy (30mpg or so).
Very nice shooting touch also which would probably enhance his value in our modern day league.

Iverson was seemingly the greater talent of the two and one of the guys I most enjoyed watching live but questions I still have regarding his actual offensive value and his portability will keep me from voting him in just yet though he may actually deserve it.