Knicks Vs. Magic PG Discomfiture

[mpharris36]

Of course JR and "better option" belong in the same sentence when used in relation to THJ. It's true. He's better.

Cole is a better defender than Amare, and should play the 5 exclusively.

Amare should play the 4 and Jason Smith probably shouldn't play at all.

If we win games this year, it will be with our offense.

simple question through the first 9 games who has been better?

THjr or JR

I'm trying to be as rational as possible. I am not even a THjr fan but there are know stats to back up that JR has been a better player so far this year meaning he doesn't deserve more minutes. I thought JR deserved more to start the year and he has again proven to me he doesn't with his awful shooting. His main job is to score and JR has been doing a terrible job of that.

JR has been outproducing THJ across the board in everything but scoring, and they shoot a nearly identical percentage so far this season.

Tim has been better from 3, Jr has been better from 2.

JR might have 3.9 assists but he also averages 2 turnvoers per game. While THjr only averages 1.3 assits he has turned the ball over just twice the entire year.

Tim Hardaway has a PER of 15.69 while JR has a PER of 11.34

Tim Hardaway has a TS% of.534
JR Smith has a TS% of .495

So you incorrect with across the board being better. Hardaway is better in quit a few important statistics.

[NoLayupRule]

Of course JR and "better option" belong in the same sentence when used in relation to THJ. It's true. He's better.

Cole is a better defender than Amare, and should play the 5 exclusively.

Amare should play the 4 and Jason Smith probably shouldn't play at all.

If we win games this year, it will be with our offense.

simple question through the first 9 games who has been better?

THjr or JR

I'm trying to be as rational as possible. I am not even a THjr fan but there are know stats to back up that JR has been a better player so far this year meaning he doesn't deserve more minutes. I thought JR deserved more to start the year and he has again proven to me he doesn't with his awful shooting. His main job is to score and JR has been doing a terrible job of that.

JR has been outproducing THJ across the board in everything but scoring, and they shoot a nearly identical percentage so far this season.

Tim has been better from 3, Jr has been better from 2.

which is of course the case

JR is a much more complete player than Hardaway at this point

defensively especially

[mpharris36]

But that's his job. That's his one skill (shoot). He's a bench player. Not understanding how you are excusing a bench player for not being able to do the one thing he does well, his job, if you don't play him the whole game?

THjr is shooting 40% from 3 this year

JR is shooting 26% from 3 this year

who is shooting better?

coming off the bench is a certain mindset as it is, now you are asking him to just sit the entire 1st half. And come out hot in the 2nd half after not playing?

you being a bit harsh on the kid.

I'm not. I'm trying to be fair. If you are going to look for a blame for the losing you can't simply point to JR smith. He is not the main reason for this team losing games. What is happening is that JR Smith is the new Stephon Marbury...the scapegoat for way too many people here for what's wrong with the Knicks. Same way it wasn't Marbury that was the main reason for the losing then, it's not JR Smith for the losing now. Did both contribute to the losing? OBVIOUSLY. Are they both not likeable guys? SURE. But to single guys out as the recipient of most of the venom is not fair. It really isn't. Has nothing to do with defending JR Smith or thinking he's great. It's about being fair.

No your not getting my point. What JR is a waste of space. He is a guy the ideally no one wants on the roster or the cap next year. We all admit we aren't a good team so why not play the guy that actually has value in a trade or a future on the team.

JR is not part of the future. And he continues to play stupid ball.

I'm not singling JR out. Him and Amare both can get the fudge of my team

[Besart19]

This didn't happen nearly as often as you're making it seem

maybe constantly is an exaggeration. but on a team where nobody really did it, he did. and a lot of times he'd throw up those dumb floaters but he was heading towards the basket. i'm not missing him, but someone needs to do it now that he's not here.

Honestly, Melo should be doing it

Melo should develop some alternative shots near the basket... some floater, stop and pop, hook shot and/or running jumper... He has lost some hoops, so he needs to find alternative ways to score when attacking!!

[mpharris36]

which is of course the case

JR is a much more complete player than Hardaway at this point

defensively especially

the stats don't lie, so far this year when JR is off the court we score 6 more points per 100 possessions on offense
and on defense we allow 7 fewer point per 100 possessions.

So that makes JR smith a get -13 per 100 possessions to start the year.

Pretty embarrassingly bad

JR offensive rating is 97!!! that is suck azz

[Capn'O]

i'm almost ready to believe because i can't make sense of what they're doing

Phil Jackson said outright that the team is gonna suck and you're gonna like it. His evaluation may be a bit different than ours and there may be other GMs in on the evaluation. Shump's "emergence" right now, for example, reminds me a bit of David Lee's all star year. A value inflation based on putting him in the right situation to produce. And notice, it's sapped his defensive efforts, as well.

Regarding the vets - as long as they're giving effort to do what's asked of them, they're going to play. They have contracts to play for and people that matter to us (agents) are watching how we treat them. In Amar'e's case, he shares an agent with Shump, who the team does have future plans with even if that = moving him. JR needs to get his reps in for any trades they want. Jason - they are, or were, probably genuinely interested in what he can do. Melo may have given a timeframe to try to win this year (i.e. play him). Bargs and Jose - who knows what's up there. Maybe there's a move on the horizon or maybe Bargs showed that he just wants to collect his checks before going back to Europe.

There's a lot of stuff in motion now. I just made up half the stuff above and there are likely many other factors I didn't consider that play into the current rotations. I think trying to take it at face value is going to frustrate anybody. I do think that considering that the tank is in motion may set our minds at ease in the interim.

[NoLayupRule]

I just made up half the stuff above and there are likely many other factors I didn't consider

lol

I think rotation are shifting in large part because Fish needs to see who gets it, in large part because of injury issues, and lastly because of our inability to score

[nykfan42]

But that's his job. That's his one skill (shoot). He's a bench player. Not understanding how you are excusing a bench player for not being able to do the one thing he does well, his job, if you don't play him the whole game?

THjr is shooting 40% from 3 this year

JR is shooting 26% from 3 this year

who is shooting better?

coming off the bench is a certain mindset as it is, now you are asking him to just sit the entire 1st half. And come out hot in the 2nd half after not playing?

you being a bit harsh on the kid.

I'm not. I'm trying to be fair. If you are going to look for a blame for the losing you can't simply point to JR smith. He is not the main reason for this team losing games. What is happening is that JR Smith is the new Stephon Marbury...the scapegoat for way too many people here for what's wrong with the Knicks. Same way it wasn't Marbury that was the main reason for the losing then, it's not JR Smith for the losing now. Did both contribute to the losing? OBVIOUSLY. Are they both not likeable guys? SURE. But to single guys out as the recipient of most of the venom is not fair. It really isn't. Has nothing to do with defending JR Smith or thinking he's great. It's about being fair.

He is not the sole reason for losing now but he was the sole reason for why we lost the Pacers series in the Conference semi's in 2013 with his chucking mentality. My reason for hating him is because he is simply not a guy you want on your team if you want to win. His style of play is for street ball not team basketball. His disgustingly low basketball IQ is also a problem. His presence is more often than not detrimental. He'll have a really good game here and there and make smart plays, then have stretches where he just hurts your team by making idiotic plays. The bad outweighs the good and that's why he has to go. I'm sick of his crap.

[Capn'O]

I just made up half the stuff above and there are likely many other factors I didn't consider

lol

I think rotation are shifting in large part because Fish needs to see who gets it, in large part because of injury issues, and lastly because of our inability to score

True, the injuries and subsequent "injuries" to two projected starters have been a big deal. Jose, you know you're getting solid, competent play there. I was really looking forward to seeing the team with him as floor general. That would have been ok, not great, basketball but at least fun to watch. Bargs is like a rich mans JSmith2

[NoLayupRule]

I just made up half the stuff above and there are likely many other factors I didn't consider

lol

I think rotation are shifting in large part because Fish needs to see who gets it, in large part because of injury issues, and lastly because of our inability to score

True, the injuries and subsequent "injuries" to two projected starters have been a big deal. Jose, you know you're getting solid, competent play there. I was really looking forward to seeing the team with him as floor general. That would have been ok, not great, basketball but at least fun to watch. Bargs is like a rich mans JSmith2

its funny
or not


but Calderon was probably the player, along with Jason Smith and Dallembert, who showed the quickest understanding of the triangle in preseason

Calderon didn't play a ton but he was never confused and never out of position

not to mention his high percentage shooting is something we could really really use

[Capn'O]

lol

I think rotation are shifting in large part because Fish needs to see who gets it, in large part because of injury issues, and lastly because of our inability to score

True, the injuries and subsequent "injuries" to two projected starters have been a big deal. Jose, you know you're getting solid, competent play there. I was really looking forward to seeing the team with him as floor general. That would have been ok, not great, basketball but at least fun to watch. Bargs is like a rich mans JSmith2

its funny
or not


but Calderon was probably the player, along with Jason Smith and Dallembert, who showed the quickest understanding of the triangle in preseason

Calderon didn't play a ton but he was never confused and never out of position

not to mention his high percentage shooting is something we could really really use

I'd say Jose understood the system best by a long shot. I'd add Melo to that secondary list with Dalembert and Smith. He was doing really well. Everyone knew what to expect just a little bit better and every facet of the game looks more disorganized without him. It is what it is.

[NoLayupRule]

True, the injuries and subsequent "injuries" to two projected starters have been a big deal. Jose, you know you're getting solid, competent play there. I was really looking forward to seeing the team with him as floor general. That would have been ok, not great, basketball but at least fun to watch. Bargs is like a rich mans JSmith2

its funny
or not


but Calderon was probably the player, along with Jason Smith and Dallembert, who showed the quickest understanding of the triangle in preseason

Calderon didn't play a ton but he was never confused and never out of position

not to mention his high percentage shooting is something we could really really use

I'd say Jose understood the system best by a long shot. I'd add Melo to that secondary list with Dalembert and Smith. He was doing really well. Everyone knew what to expect just a little bit better and every facet of the game looks more disorganized without him. It is what it is.

yes, Melo has looked very good in the triangle and on defense most nights

too bad he's out there alone

[Besart19]

I know its early. But just a look in the near future.

Lets say we still suck this bad after the new year. Am I the only one who dont see melo playing the whole season?

Melo needs to work more with MJ and Hakeem this season than with these bums!!

Give the guy the rest he needs and even any surgery that might help him on the long(er) run!!

[moocow007]

THjr is shooting 40% from 3 this year

JR is shooting 26% from 3 this year

who is shooting better?

coming off the bench is a certain mindset as it is, now you are asking him to just sit the entire 1st half. And come out hot in the 2nd half after not playing?

you being a bit harsh on the kid.

I'm not. I'm trying to be fair. If you are going to look for a blame for the losing you can't simply point to JR smith. He is not the main reason for this team losing games. What is happening is that JR Smith is the new Stephon Marbury...the scapegoat for way too many people here for what's wrong with the Knicks. Same way it wasn't Marbury that was the main reason for the losing then, it's not JR Smith for the losing now. Did both contribute to the losing? OBVIOUSLY. Are they both not likeable guys? SURE. But to single guys out as the recipient of most of the venom is not fair. It really isn't. Has nothing to do with defending JR Smith or thinking he's great. It's about being fair.

No your not getting my point. What JR is a waste of space. He is a guy the ideally no one wants on the roster or the cap next year. We all admit we aren't a good team so why not play the guy that actually has value in a trade or a future on the team.

JR is not part of the future. And he continues to play stupid ball.

I'm not singling JR out. Him and Amare both can get the fudge of my team

If you're point is that you dislike JR Smith then I understand that (I really do, he's not a likable character). If the point is that JR Smith is a boob I understand that as well (he is a big boob). But he is not a waste of space anymore than 90% of the guys on this team right now. If the goal is to get rid of guys that are wastes of space then we should be getting rid of just about everyone on this team aside from about 3-4 guys. And I'm not seeing the same kind of zest to get rid of everyone else as I do Smith. As far as value, very very very few guys on this team has any real value. Folks let Smith's antics overtake his abilities. Teams value abilities as much as they do character. Character guys that can't do **** aren't really more useful (and valuable) than questionable characters guys that can do ****. If there is hate against this team, it should be directed at most of them cause most of them suck. Smith isn't alone in that. Value wise, hardly any of the guys on this team has more value than Smith. So we should be looking to dump all of them. But we aren't. That's my thing. It's not because I like JR Smith. I've said I'd move him in the first reasonable deal I can find. Key is "reasonable" not because I hate the guys guts. If basketball was simply about likeable guys, then absolutely, JR Smith would be out of the league. But he's not. Why? And he's been extremely valuable for and highly utilized by every team he's been on? Why? Because all their head coaches are morons?

[moocow007]

Right now the team is so terrible that pretty much everyone on the team (both players and coaches) should be the scapegoats (what folks naturally look for) for losing. In fact, if they actually all realize and accept that then maybe we can move forward and everyone take responsibility for the loses and improve.

But some guys have too many years of entrenched bad habits and not enough years of athletic ability left in the tank to really be worth including in any sort of developmental process, which is why I'd like to see JR phased out or traded at some point.

JR Smith has, at most, 1 more year beyond this year with the team (unless the team wants him back). He's not losing his athletic ability in that time period. To use that as a rational is just taking the hate for the person into every aspect he does. JR Smith actually keeps himself in excellent shape in the off season. When was the last time that Smith came into training camp overweight? When did it take him the first x weeks of the season to get into shape? So again, what is happening is that hate for the person is imprinting untruths about the player. Look, it's human nature. If you hate someone enough you will absolutely see every negative thing about that person and blow it up and not notice any of the positive things. Think about it deeply...how many times has something like that been done to you by someone that dislikes you? How many times have you done that to someone else you dislike?. It absolutely is what's happening here with folks and JR Smith. He tries the majority of the time to fit and that's ignored or belittled, but the one mistake he makes is blown up and becomes everything that he is. As far as phasing out...like I've already said in other posts, if guys that aren't part of the future should be phased out then they should be phasing out everyone but 3 or, at most, 4 people. And you can't just play 3 or 4 people not matter how much you really want to. IF JR Smith is as big of a pile of poop as some of you are saying, then NO ONE is trading for him so why bother the constant persistent "lets trade him" banter?

[god shammgod]

obsessing on one player is the wrong thing to do. obsess on the fact that we can't even decide on the group of players we want to play regularly.

[moocow007]

obsessing on one player is the wrong thing to do. obsess on the fact that we can't even decide on the group of players we want to play regularly.

This sums it up best about the real purpose. Arguably the best single answer to any question in the history of mankind. Folks need to focus on the right things.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc[/youtube]

[Rasho Brezec]

obsessing on one player is the wrong thing to do. obsess on the fact that we can't even decide on the group of players we want to play regularly.

I've decided on the group of players I don't want to play ever, does that count?

[moocow007]

obsessing on one player is the wrong thing to do. obsess on the fact that we can't even decide on the group of players we want to play regularly.

I've decided on the group of players I don't want to play ever, does that count?

Oh you.

[god shammgod]

obsessing on one player is the wrong thing to do. obsess on the fact that we can't even decide on the group of players we want to play regularly.

I've decided on the group of players I don't want to play ever, does that count?

that would be fine because that is an actual decision