Knick Vs Wolves PG...Not Even Mad.

[JBreezeNY]

...Which are what exactly?

Our only asset is cap space

Our assets (other than the cap space) are the young players on this team, build up their value & ship them out. Either go fishing for first rounders or try to make a move for a Rondo type player in value.

You don't even believe what you just typed

You don't think that highly of Shump, and I don't know if THJ, Larkin, and Early combined gets you higher than mid-late 1st.

Listen....

Yea it's not a perfect solution and our players don't have much talent (IMO) but I'd rather do something like that instead of trying to win with a poor team, make the playoffs & bank on a FA liking a #20 draft pick with nobody else around him.

We really don't have much options here when in comes to bringing in talent, even though I've said I'm gonna look at the team differently this year, this is optimistic JBreezeNY speaking. Not the realistic one who believes Marc Gasol won't even consider New York, JR won't be traded because there is no-one who wants to take a chance on a player like that especially at his age & we'll end up re-signing Amar'e to a smaller deal based on Dolan's loyalty to him.

[blueNorange]

like I said in last nights game thread, just think of the times the ball is passed to dalembert, smith, or amare ... now imagine it being towns(or okafor, but hopefully towns)

the Knicks aren't going to suck next year with the money they'll have, this is their year to get a great building block.

[mpharris36]

Do you know how unparalleled that is though? We also don't have the assets to pull off two trades like that. We would essentially need a Cleveland type situation this summer where one of the big FA's comes here early and grabs a disgruntled buddy from another team.... It's farfetched to say the least. And why would any established superstar wanna play with Towns? Look what happened to Wiggins this summer with Lebron... Wiggins was a way better prospect than Towns is currently and will be come draft time.

we could easily just trade our draft pick (towns/okafor) for an established player.

a high pick is an asset. An asset that a lot of teams covet that could easily be moved to turn over the roster. It all depends on how the big FA player out. If we go to Marc Gasol and say hey do you want to play for us. He could be like. You only have Melo I would rather go to San Antonio or stay in Memphis.

What if we then trade our 1st pick (say its a top 3 pick). And get some kind of package like Mike Conley Jr and other pieces if Memphis then decides to break up there team if they don't make a run in the playoffs.

We can say we no brought in your PG plus we have Melo. Now we become more interesting to Gasol.

Say Gasol doesn't come and we split his money between 2 other really solid players. Dragic and Milsap wouldn't come here to play with Melo and a big time rookie like Okafor or Towns?

That would make the knicks better than both altanta and the suns with our roster.

[Deeeez Knicks]

If it comes down to it we could just renounce Shump. We'd lose a possible late/mid pick, but if we are signing 2 max players thats fine.

Imo its better to have the choice to keep Shump. There's a very good chance we wont even have the option to sign to players worth max so it will be nice to have the choice to keep Shump especially if he continues to play like this.

It just gives us more options which will be good

but it could easily back fire. Because all it takes is shumpert getting a crazy good offer from another team and then that cap hold goes from 6.5 to whatever he signs for.

With the cap going up and a few young teams having space I wouldn't want to risk that. We would have to get all our FA deals done really quickly and then we could match anything shumpert was given.

But see how it backfires like it did in Houston? They got nothing for Parsons while they were waiting for Bosh.

I would rather grab the asset as save the space.

If Marc is plan A and he doesn't come we could go with plan B with the extra space....You could probably get Dragic and Milsap with that space plus have some money left over to fill out the bench.

But Shump is not preventing you from either of your plan A or plan B. We could simply renounce his rights if we need too. Even your plan B is contingent on trading JR and Calderon. Well, if we trade them, we could still hold Shumps rights and have $30-$35mil to sign Dragic and Milsap. Shump's really not preventing us from your plan A or plan B.

Either way, every plan is risky. If we hold Shump, at least we have more options. Worst case we let him go for nothing. Best case we resign him for his $6.5mil cap hold AND add multiple players. That is maximizing value. Your just not going to get that kind of value on the market.

As far as Houston, they lost Parsons, but still signed Ariza. Thats not really a bad backfire option. Everything was held up for Lebron and Melo though. I don't think there'll be a Bron and Melo this summer so things should move faster.

[j4remi]

I'm betting Melo's on his phone after every Knicks loss texting and calling players to set something up. I don't think he re-signed in NY without knowing that he'd have help in due time (especially considering the pay cut). If he did, then Phil is a jedi.

[mpharris36]

But Shump is not preventing you from either of your plan A or plan B. We could simply renounce his rights if we need too. Even your plan B is contingent on trading JR and Calderon. Well, if we trade them, we could still hold Shumps rights and have $30-$35mil to sign Dragic and Milsap. Shump's really not preventing us from your plan A or plan B.

Either way, every plan is risky. If we hold Shump, at least we have more options. Worst case we let him go for nothing. Best case we resign him for his $6.5mil cap hold AND add multiple players. That is maximizing value. Your just not going to get that kind of value on the market.

As far as Houston, they lost Parsons, but still signed Ariza. Thats not really a bad backfire option. Everything was held up for Lebron and Melo though. I don't think there'll be a Bron and Melo this summer so things should move faster.

your not taking into account of the 5+ million dollar first round pick cap hold. For getting a top pick which we are headed too.

So with shump we would be looking at approx. 25 million dollars of space instead of the 30+ which I recently described.

You will not be able to get Dragic and Milsap for 12 million per. 15 might get it done and that extra 3 million for each player comes from the 6 million we saved from shumpert.

You see what im saying?

[KnicksFan7]

I'm betting Melo's on his phone after every Knicks loss texting and calling players to set something up. I don't think he re-signed in NY without knowing that he'd have help in due time (especially considering the pay cut). If he did, then Phil is a jedi.

I agree. I think something is in the works. No way he signed without knowing something may be going down. Phil probably told him that they'll be working on getting help and in the mean time take this period to learn the triangle.

This season was a loss and I think the guys knew it coming in. We have some lame duck players and other guys that know they were brought in strictly as chips for bigger things.

[nykballa2k4]

Because since the 1996 free agency bonanza we've been chasing quick fixes and refusing to build properly. In 1996 we could have signed Sprewell instead of Houston and anybody instead of Chris Childs but we grabbed them because they were splashy. Then we blew the 96 draft getting 3 guys in the deepest draft in history who weren't good because the Knicks draft strategy is the same as their free agent strategy, get names that people recognise. So they spent them on 3 players who were recognised from the tournament and missed on Ilgauskaus and JYD and one Derek Fisher who went on to hold Kobe accountable for five championships.

Every hire, every trade, every signing has been about getting marquee names and the past two mjor free agency periods in 10 and now 15 have been about gutting the team so you can get more bright shiny names.

You hire a rookie executive in Phil Jackson (sexy name) to change the culture (nice way to sell more tickets "Get in on the ground floor as we change the culture") who hires Steve Kerr as a sexy name coach who says "No thanks" and in panic mode Phil hires the guy who just finished playing. Another sexy name hire. So you've got a rookie coach and a rookie executive with great name value trying to coach CArmelo Anthony (a marquee name that we gutted the team for) and Stoudemire (signed strictly because he was the last and only sexy name we could get and a cast of misfits (with sexy names like Smith (we loved him coming over from China) and Larkin (baseball guy's kid that's sexy) and Dalembert (oooh Haitian sensation) and Hardaway Jr. (remember his dad) and Bargnani (who is only name recognition not talent or desire) who all, except for Anthony, have been warned they won't be around long because we need the cap space for sexier and hopefully better names. But you know, sacrifice for the triangle because it will good for the team.

Straight hoodwinkin'. That's why we always suck. We traded for an injured LJ because we were drunk on names. (Let's put together as many 20 point scorers as possible, bad back what?), we resigned Houston for $100 million (bad knees what?), we got Marbury ("when your point guards are Ward and Childs you ain't gonna win in this league"), ostracised Spree and Cmby (hey media training is sexy), traded the 2002 pick for McDyess (if only Nene's name was Nene then. It was Maybner Hilario (it was sexy that he could dunk taking steps from the 3 point line but that wasn't as sexy as McDyess' name) and we continue to trade draft picks for players who have name value. (Names are sexy, potential rookies not so much) ... and thus we pay for renovations, highest ticket prices and Dolan's ego without ever getting to the real problem.

You haven't properly built a team since 1992 and the fans (New York fans are the smartest in the league, sexy name for the fans) lap it all up hoping for the next big thing instead of the right thing.

We suck because we sell tickets while sucking. Straight hoodwinking.

I understand your frustration, but some of what you are saying is not quite accurate.

Phils "big move" this summer was Tyson Chandler for Calderon. Calderon has been hurt, so we have no idea what that will look like. We also don't know what the climate was on the FA market. We need guys who can play defense, who was out there? Who can play defense, get stops and be a big part of this team?

We will find out if Calderon2Bargnani was a good choice or not, but we have not even seen that vision played out yet.

Right now our offense looks good, but as you said our defense is horrible. Melo's knee is making him slower on defense which is giving up some of those 3's. Larkin and Acy like to foul before their guys get in a scoring position (perimeter, off the ball etc).
I am almost at the point where I would like to ask Boston about Brandon "all about that Bass"

I'm not frustrated. This has been our problem. Phil is saying that he's looking at other teams' benches to find a way to make this team good. That's the same rhetoric that has been going on in New York for nearly 20 years. We don't draft well and develop our talent so we have to overpay for other talent in free agency and trade. Well, if they are tradeable then there's something wrong with them that their initial team won't keep them (LJ, Glen Rice, Sprewell, Camby, Mark Jackson, Antonio McDyess, Marbury, Carmelo, Curry (age, attitude or injury) or we have to overpay in free agency (Houston, Childs, Amar'e) We don't pay the right price for the right players. It is always name, name, name and the plan for 2015 and 2016 is the same, get more names to go with the name Carmelo. It doesn't work.

Right now Phil is doing exactly what Donnie Walsh did and what Grunfeld did in 1996. Clearing space. Great, but it's how that space is used and what results from it. The idea that everybody is beating down the door to play in New York has already been debunked.

The triangle has been demonstrated to be an ordinary offence without special players in it. (It was said to add 10 wins to a season. Yet we look worse than we did with standard NBA offence last year) Our defensive philosophy is that the 3 won't beat us (it has, it will)

What was the biggest complaint in the Ewing era. He didn't have point guards. Well we drafted Jackson and Strickland and traded them away in successive years never to be replaced.

Chasing the greener grass and the sexy names is why we have sucked and will continue to suck. Until we commit to drafting well and keeping draft picks, we will not be winners. We are not the Yankees who have no cap to worry about so they can field superteams.

unfortunately this is the new culture of the NBA. clearing space cap space and hoping the superstar picks you is what Miami had to do what cave just did what Lakers have done for both shaq and gasol and Howard. chapion ship teams have 1 guy then look to add another. spurs are anomalous

[BowlRips]

Gotta see how Calderon comes back and plays, but at this point, it is going to make the most sense to move him.

[GONYK]

I understand your frustration, but some of what you are saying is not quite accurate.

Phils "big move" this summer was Tyson Chandler for Calderon. Calderon has been hurt, so we have no idea what that will look like. We also don't know what the climate was on the FA market. We need guys who can play defense, who was out there? Who can play defense, get stops and be a big part of this team?

We will find out if Calderon2Bargnani was a good choice or not, but we have not even seen that vision played out yet.

Right now our offense looks good, but as you said our defense is horrible. Melo's knee is making him slower on defense which is giving up some of those 3's. Larkin and Acy like to foul before their guys get in a scoring position (perimeter, off the ball etc).
I am almost at the point where I would like to ask Boston about Brandon "all about that Bass"

I'm not frustrated. This has been our problem. Phil is saying that he's looking at other teams' benches to find a way to make this team good. That's the same rhetoric that has been going on in New York for nearly 20 years. We don't draft well and develop our talent so we have to overpay for other talent in free agency and trade. Well, if they are tradeable then there's something wrong with them that their initial team won't keep them (LJ, Glen Rice, Sprewell, Camby, Mark Jackson, Antonio McDyess, Marbury, Carmelo, Curry (age, attitude or injury) or we have to overpay in free agency (Houston, Childs, Amar'e) We don't pay the right price for the right players. It is always name, name, name and the plan for 2015 and 2016 is the same, get more names to go with the name Carmelo. It doesn't work.

Right now Phil is doing exactly what Donnie Walsh did and what Grunfeld did in 1996. Clearing space. Great, but it's how that space is used and what results from it. The idea that everybody is beating down the door to play in New York has already been debunked.

The triangle has been demonstrated to be an ordinary offence without special players in it. (It was said to add 10 wins to a season. Yet we look worse than we did with standard NBA offence last year) Our defensive philosophy is that the 3 won't beat us (it has, it will)

What was the biggest complaint in the Ewing era. He didn't have point guards. Well we drafted Jackson and Strickland and traded them away in successive years never to be replaced.

Chasing the greener grass and the sexy names is why we have sucked and will continue to suck. Until we commit to drafting well and keeping draft picks, we will not be winners. We are not the Yankees who have no cap to worry about so they can field superteams.

unfortunately this is the new culture of the NBA. clearing space cap space and hoping the superstar picks you is what Miami had to do what cave just did what Lakers have done for both shaq and gasol and Howard. chapion ship teams have 1 guy then look to add another. spurs are anomalous

The Lakers did not do that for Gasol or Dwight

[GONYK]

Gotta see how Calderon comes back and plays, but at this point, it is going to make the most sense to move him.

It made sense to move him the second we got him. His play is irrelevant.

[j4remi]

Gotta see how Calderon comes back and plays, but at this point, it is going to make the most sense to move him.

It made sense to move him the second we got him. His play is irrelevant.

I disagree on that. If Calderon is really good in this system, it makes sense to keep him as an affordable starter that works imo. If his play is pedestrian, then you look to move him for more cap space. I like the Dragic/Milsap plan though...and I'd move him for that.

[GONYK]

Gotta see how Calderon comes back and plays, but at this point, it is going to make the most sense to move him.

It made sense to move him the second we got him. His play is irrelevant.

I disagree on that. If Calderon is really good in this system, it makes sense to keep him as an affordable starter that works imo. If his play is pedestrian, then you look to move him for more cap space. I like the Dragic/Milsap plan though...and I'd move him for that.

Even if he plays well, I'd move him for a shot at Dragic.

That is what I'm saying.

[Deeeez Knicks]

But Shump is not preventing you from either of your plan A or plan B. We could simply renounce his rights if we need too. Even your plan B is contingent on trading JR and Calderon. Well, if we trade them, we could still hold Shumps rights and have $30-$35mil to sign Dragic and Milsap. Shump's really not preventing us from your plan A or plan B.

Either way, every plan is risky. If we hold Shump, at least we have more options. Worst case we let him go for nothing. Best case we resign him for his $6.5mil cap hold AND add multiple players. That is maximizing value. Your just not going to get that kind of value on the market.

As far as Houston, they lost Parsons, but still signed Ariza. Thats not really a bad backfire option. Everything was held up for Lebron and Melo though. I don't think there'll be a Bron and Melo this summer so things should move faster.

your not taking into account of the 5+ million dollar first round pick cap hold. For getting a top pick which we are headed too.

So with shump we would be looking at approx. 25 million dollars of space instead of the 30+ which I recently described.

You will not be able to get Dragic and Milsap for 12 million per. 15 might get it done and that extra 3 million for each player comes from the 6 million we saved from shumpert.

You see what im saying?

In the slim chance that happens you just renounce Shump. If we end up with the #1 pick, Mislap and Dragic, i think we'd all consider that a win even if we let Shump go for nothing.

But there's also a chance that doesnt happen and Shump ends up extending for a decent price somewhere else and we miss out.

But here's our salary with the #1 pick if we can trade Calderon, Hardaway, and JR.

Melo $22,875,000.00
Calderon $525,093
Shump $6,542,438.00
Cap Hold $525,093
Cap Hold $525,093
Cap Hold $525,093
Early $845,059.00
Acy $525,093
Prigs (Buy out) $440,000.00
2015 Pick $4,753,000.00
Cap Hold $525,093
Cap Hold $525,093

$39,131,148.00

We still could have close to $30mil in cap space even with Shump. THAT is the value of keeping Shump. ONLY a $6.5m cap hold for a $10milish player. Its one less hole to fill at a good price and we could use the othe rmoney elsehwere

[AmazingJason]

Okafor
Millsap
Melo
Shumpert
Dragic

[ORANGEandBLUE]

$6.75 devoted to Shump's cap hold >>> $6.75m in cap space.

[F N 11]

We need to stop forcing 3's then. I heard that was part of the defensive scheme.

[god shammgod]

this is optimistic JBreezeNY speaking. Not the realistic one who believes we'll end up re-signing Amar'e to a smaller deal based on Dolan's loyalty to him.

i happen to like you a lot (pause). but the next person who even thinks this is banned. i'm serious.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

I wouldn't trade the pick. Our only shot at building a contender is drafting a stud with that pick. If we trade it we're either going to get a stud who takes up way more cap space or a guy on a rookie contract with a lower ceiling.

[mpharris36]

In the slim chance that happens you just renounce Shump. If we end up with the #1 pick, Mislap and Dragic, i think we'd all consider that a win even if we let Shump go for nothing.

But there's also a chance that doesnt happen and Shump ends up extending for a decent price somewhere else and we miss out.

But here's our salary with the #1 pick if we can trade Calderon, Hardaway, and JR.

Melo $22,875,000.00
Calderon $525,093
Shump $6,542,438.00
Cap Hold $525,093
Cap Hold $525,093
Cap Hold $525,093
Early $845,059.00
Acy $525,093
Prigs (Buy out) $440,000.00
2015 Pick $4,753,000.00
Cap Hold $525,093
Cap Hold $525,093

$39,131,148.00

We still could have close to $30mil in cap space even with Shump. THAT is the value of keeping Shump. ONLY a $6.5m cap hold for a $10milish player. Its one less hole to fill at a good price and we could use the othe rmoney elsehwere

and that is a fine thought process in a ideal world but Shumpert still can sign with a new deal with any team and then we would have to renounce him.

What I'm saying is I don't want to risk renouncing him. Now if its a late first that is one thing but if a mid 1st rounder plus gives us the ability to trade JR or Calderon contract off the books you have to consider that.

Not only are you freeing up shumpert space but you are freeing up Calderon/JR space which now gives you more money plus a 1st round pick which you can package later for another piece.

Basically what I'm saying is the knicks are not in a position to renounce shumpert. We are limited in our assets right now and we need to lock in as many sure fire assets as we can. Renouncing shumpert would make us lose another asset for nothing. I am not willing to do that.

I like shump but he is going to get paid and I would assume early so that another team forces are hand to choice between shump or other FA's