Official Trade Thread: Two drink minimum

[JDLAW]

Actually the spurs made a pure asset management trade with one of pops favorite players when they sent George hill to Indiana for Leonard. They knew they didn't want to pay him what he wanted on an extension and traded him for an unproven piece in Leonard. And they nearly traded Tony parker early in his career.

Again I think dragic will be back but to think it's some sure thing is crazy. It's also crazy to think this roster is a finished product; suns are only a little over a yr into a rebuild. Moves will be made.

Miroik is 10 games into his NBA career so judging him by that is premature. There a reason he was considered a big time prospect.
Sent from my SM-G900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

Sorry this was not asset management. Hill might have been a favorite but he was hardly a core player with the Spurs - he was a reserve and occasional spot started when Parker was injured. The Spurs knew all along what they were getting with Leonard. That situation is nowhere similar to that of Dragic who was all-NBA and a core member of the Suns team.

As for Parker - nearly does not count.

[letsgosuns]

If posters want to know why I cannot stand the Morris brothers and want them off team, let's just take a look at their last five games each:

Markieff:

Vs. Brooklyn 9 pts, 5 rbs, 3 asst, 3 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Charlotte 12 pts, 6 rbs, 2 asst, 1 stl, 1 blk
Vs. LAC 5 pts, 6 rbs, 0 asst, 0 stl, 1 blk
Vs. Boston 30 pts, 7 rbs, 5 asst, 4 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Detroit 10 pts, 4 rbs, 3 asst, 2 stl, 2 blk

Marcus:

Vs. Brooklyn 6 pts, 4 rbs, 0 asst, 2 stl, 1 blk
Vs. Charlotte 17 pts, 7 rbs, 2 asst, 0 stl, 0 blk
Vs. LAC 3 pts, 3 rbs, 2 asst, 0 stl, 0 blk,
Vs. Boston 13 pts, 5 rbs, 7 asst, 1 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Detroit 5 pts, 1 rbs, 1 asst, 1 stl, 0 blk

If that is not the definition of inconsistency and mediocrity, I do not know what is. They are not rookies anymore, they are starting forwards. This is their fourth year. How the hell will the Suns ever become a better team with them as the starters? No way. I saw more talent in T.J. Warren in one quarter against the Celtics than I have seen from either Markieff or Marcus in four years. They never get double doubles, they are not good defenders, and they cannot be relied upon to have good games because you never know what you are going to get from them. That is not good four years into the league. I do not care that they have somewhat decent contracts. I do not think they are going to get much better than they are right now. I would rather take their combined 13 million a year salary starting next year and spend it towards a better power forward.

[Christine-In-AZ]

If posters want to know why I cannot stand the Morris brothers and want them off team, let's just take a look at their last five games each:

Markieff:

Vs. Brooklyn 9 pts, 5 rbs, 3 asst, 3 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Charlotte 12 pts, 6 rbs, 2 asst, 1 stl, 1 blk
Vs. LAC 5 pts, 6 rbs, 0 asst, 0 stl, 1 blk
Vs. Boston 30 pts, 7 rbs, 5 asst, 4 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Detroit 10 pts, 4 rbs, 3 asst, 2 stl, 2 blk

Marcus:

Vs. Brooklyn 6 pts, 4 rbs, 0 asst, 2 stl, 1 blk
Vs. Charlotte 17 pts, 7 rbs, 2 asst, 0 stl, 0 blk
Vs. LAC 3 pts, 3 rbs, 2 asst, 0 stl, 0 blk,
Vs. Boston 13 pts, 5 rbs, 7 asst, 1 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Detroit 5 pts, 1 rbs, 1 asst, 1 stl, 0 blk

If that is not the definition of inconsistency and mediocrity, I do not know what is. They are not rookies anymore, they are starting forwards. This is their fourth year. How the hell will the Suns ever become a better team with them as the starters? No way. I saw more talent in T.J. Warren in one quarter against the Celtics than I have seen from either Markieff or Marcus in four years. They never get double doubles, they are not good defenders, and they cannot be relied upon to have good games because you never know what you are going to get from them. That is not good four years into the league. I do not care that they have somewhat decent contracts. I do not think they are going to get much better than they are right now. I would rather take their combined 13 million a year salary starting next year and spend it towards a better power forward.

I'm hardly the biggest Morrii fan but...

"let's just look at their last five games each"

...tells me plenty about your assessment of the brothers.

EDIT: This entire Suns team has been inconsistent so far...everybody's game to game numbers have been Jekyl & Hyde

[WeekapaugGroove]

Actually the spurs made a pure asset management trade with one of pops favorite players when they sent George hill to Indiana for Leonard. They knew they didn't want to pay him what he wanted on an extension and traded him for an unproven piece in Leonard. And they nearly traded Tony parker early in his career.

Again I think dragic will be back but to think it's some sure thing is crazy. It's also crazy to think this roster is a finished product; suns are only a little over a yr into a rebuild. Moves will be made.

Miroik is 10 games into his NBA career so judging him by that is premature. There a reason he was considered a big time prospect.
Sent from my SM-G900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

Sorry this was not asset management. Hill might have been a favorite but he was hardly a core player with the Spurs - he was a reserve and occasional spot started when Parker was injured. The Spurs knew all along what they were getting with Leonard. That situation is nowhere similar to that of Dragic who was all-NBA and a core member of the Suns team.

As for Parker - nearly does not count.

I guess you and i have different definitions of "asset management" but give this article a read: http://grantland.com/features/analyzing ... ce-finals/

Spurs anticipated a salary situation and made a move to address. that's asset management 101.

[letsgosuns]

If posters want to know why I cannot stand the Morris brothers and want them off team, let's just take a look at their last five games each:

Markieff:

Vs. Brooklyn 9 pts, 5 rbs, 3 asst, 3 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Charlotte 12 pts, 6 rbs, 2 asst, 1 stl, 1 blk
Vs. LAC 5 pts, 6 rbs, 0 asst, 0 stl, 1 blk
Vs. Boston 30 pts, 7 rbs, 5 asst, 4 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Detroit 10 pts, 4 rbs, 3 asst, 2 stl, 2 blk

Marcus:

Vs. Brooklyn 6 pts, 4 rbs, 0 asst, 2 stl, 1 blk
Vs. Charlotte 17 pts, 7 rbs, 2 asst, 0 stl, 0 blk
Vs. LAC 3 pts, 3 rbs, 2 asst, 0 stl, 0 blk,
Vs. Boston 13 pts, 5 rbs, 7 asst, 1 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Detroit 5 pts, 1 rbs, 1 asst, 1 stl, 0 blk

If that is not the definition of inconsistency and mediocrity, I do not know what is. They are not rookies anymore, they are starting forwards. This is their fourth year. How the hell will the Suns ever become a better team with them as the starters? No way. I saw more talent in T.J. Warren in one quarter against the Celtics than I have seen from either Markieff or Marcus in four years. They never get double doubles, they are not good defenders, and they cannot be relied upon to have good games because you never know what you are going to get from them. That is not good four years into the league. I do not care that they have somewhat decent contracts. I do not think they are going to get much better than they are right now. I would rather take their combined 13 million a year salary starting next year and spend it towards a better power forward.

I'm hardly the biggest Morrii fan but...

"let's just look at their last five games each"

...tells me plenty about your assessment of the brothers.

Well I only need a small sample size to prove my point. That is exactly how their careers have gone. Look at their game logs if you want to. It will show the exact same kind of pattern as their last five games. And seriously, what do you expect me to do, type out their stats for every single game?

[JDLAW]

OT, but I'm interested in your opinion:

With the Suns payroll rising to at least 70m next season after Goran's resign/draft pick signing(s) and before resigning Green, what do you think the FO's plans are for G.Green? Shop 'em before the deadline or commit to a resigning effort?

If you don't mind opining...What do you think is the best "Green Plan" for the Suns long term?

I think they are going to try to resign him, but there will be a limit as to what they pay. I think they have already talked to his agent(s) and to him about their intentions. They like Green and what he brings to the table.

The Suns have several advantages with Green. 1) He likes it here and he likes Hornacek and McD, 2)They own bird rights, 3) Green went through the "grass is greener" approach before and it backfired. He had a very good seasoning NJ and then signed with the Pacers where he was lost and forgotten.

I think the Suns sign both Green and Dragic (whose cap hold will be substantially less than his ultimate salary) and sort out the log jam with an appropriate trade. I think the guy who ultimately gets traded is Thomas because the Suns will have a capable back-up and Thomas can be dealt to any team because his salary is low ($7M) and it would seem he would want to play for a team where he could start (HOU, Miami, Mil, Det,Indy).

Is this anywhere close to correct...

Projecting 2015-16 Suns payroll
(Contractual obligations plus Dragic and Green resigned)

G Bledsoe- 13.5
G Dragic-15?
G Green- 7?
G Thomas- 7
F Tucker- 5.5
F Mook- 5
F TJ Warren- 2
G Z.Dragic- 1.8
G Ennis- 1.7
G Goodwin- 1.2
PF Keef- 8
C Len- 3.8
C Plumlee- 2.1

Total $$= 59.7M for positions 1,2 and 3
Total$$= 14.9M for positions 4 and 5

With above numbers I have the Suns payroll at 74.6 million before signing the 2015 draft pick(s). This would represent roughly a 15 million dollar rise from '14-'15's "number".

If the Suns do ok this year...say? Get 50 wins/8th seed and give SAS or MEM a hard fought 6 game series, will Sarver be cool with a payroll approaching 80 million next year? He's still not selling out the arena with this group, and how much excitement will there be if the team remains nearly intact.

I think your numbers are pretty close.

I do not know if your are trying to make some point about the spending between front court and back court, but I can only assume you are. As for your spending breakdowns - you have to remember the reason they are like they are is because 2 of the 3 are on rookie contracts. The spending will catch up when the Suns have to pay Len and Plumlee after their rookie deals. I do not think its appropriate to lump the players at the 3 spot in with the guards because none of them play guard. Green is the one true swing man.

If this is some sort of advocacy for a trade for a high priced big man, I do not see a need to trade for one just to balance out spending. There are few, if any, big men available to the Suns that would be a major upgrade at the 4 or 5 position over a developing Len and Markieff. None of the big men potentially available to the Suns are going to put butts in the seats and trading popular players like Dragic or Green will potentially take butts out of the seats.

That said, I do think the Suns will shift the roster somewhat and the likely players would be Thomas and possibly Tucker.

Finally, if you think about draft choices -the Suns are likely to have one or two next year - depending on what the Lakers do. Minnesota's pick is unlikely as is the Lakers pick. If the Suns do what we expect, their pick will be a late lottery or late teens - early 20s pick and the salary hit will not be severe.

[Christine-In-AZ]

If posters want to know why I cannot stand the Morris brothers and want them off team, let's just take a look at their last five games each:

Markieff:

Vs. Brooklyn 9 pts, 5 rbs, 3 asst, 3 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Charlotte 12 pts, 6 rbs, 2 asst, 1 stl, 1 blk
Vs. LAC 5 pts, 6 rbs, 0 asst, 0 stl, 1 blk
Vs. Boston 30 pts, 7 rbs, 5 asst, 4 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Detroit 10 pts, 4 rbs, 3 asst, 2 stl, 2 blk

Marcus:

Vs. Brooklyn 6 pts, 4 rbs, 0 asst, 2 stl, 1 blk
Vs. Charlotte 17 pts, 7 rbs, 2 asst, 0 stl, 0 blk
Vs. LAC 3 pts, 3 rbs, 2 asst, 0 stl, 0 blk,
Vs. Boston 13 pts, 5 rbs, 7 asst, 1 stl, 0 blk
Vs. Detroit 5 pts, 1 rbs, 1 asst, 1 stl, 0 blk

If that is not the definition of inconsistency and mediocrity, I do not know what is. They are not rookies anymore, they are starting forwards. This is their fourth year. How the hell will the Suns ever become a better team with them as the starters? No way. I saw more talent in T.J. Warren in one quarter against the Celtics than I have seen from either Markieff or Marcus in four years. They never get double doubles, they are not good defenders, and they cannot be relied upon to have good games because you never know what you are going to get from them. That is not good four years into the league. I do not care that they have somewhat decent contracts. I do not think they are going to get much better than they are right now. I would rather take their combined 13 million a year salary starting next year and spend it towards a better power forward.

I'm hardly the biggest Morrii fan but...

"let's just look at their last five games each"

...tells me plenty about your assessment of the brothers.

Well I only need a small sample size to prove my point. That is exactly how their careers have gone. Look at their game logs if you want to. It will show the exact same kind of pattern as their last five games. And seriously, what do you expect me to do, type out their stats for every single game?

I thought you posted their last 5 statlines because you thought they held value.

Every individual on the team has been inconsistent and their game to game stats would illustrate it.

Got it. You're super down on the Morrii and in your words "want them off the team".

For me they are #4 (Keef) to #7 (Mook) players for a contending team. Good to keep unless a huge piece trade presents itself.

[letsgosuns]

The Spurs are the envy of professional sports. They drafted Tim Duncan and won their first championship with him in his second year in 1999. 15 years later, they are still winning championships with him as a focal point. I cannot think of any team in sports history off the top of my head that can say that. Without Tim Duncan, (who many people and former NBA players consider the best power forward of all time), none of that would have happened and still be happening The combination of Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili is historic, but Duncan is the truly irreplaceable one. Before him, David Robinson could not win a championship no matter who was around him. Tim Duncan arrives and boom, championship in Duncan's second year. Then again in 2003 when Parker was a second year player and Ginobili was a rookie.

Tim Duncan can still dominate a game. It is unbelievable. If he plays at least a couple more seasons, that is talking about dominating a professional sport for two straight decades. Has anyone ever done that in basketball before? I know certain pitchers in baseball have had great careers of domination for 15-20 years, but legitimately dominating and competing for championships every year for close to 20 years in basketball is unheard of.

What I am trying to say is that I do not think it is fair to compare the Suns organization to the Spurs organization. I understand they make great moves and have great scouts and know how to build a team. However, they also lucked out with drafting Tim Duncan, then Parker and Ginobili in more than just a basketball sense. These guys are not only great players, but incredibly unique because all three of them have sacrificed a lot of money in their careers to stay together and help the team win championships. Now that is something that you cannot expect out of players. James Harden refused a 54 million dollar contract offer from the Thunder because he only wanted a max offer of 60 million. Himself, Durant, and Westbrook could have dominated for a long time if they all stayed healthy and he left over six million dollars. Six million dollars! Is the quality of life between making 54 million versus 60 million really that much different? I guess to Harden it is. Now compare that with Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili. You cannot. They are special players and that is why every team wishes they can model the Spurs organization. And I have not even mentioned Popovich yet. One of the best coaches of all time. Any team would love to have him.

[Christine-In-AZ]

I think they are going to try to resign him, but there will be a limit as to what they pay. I think they have already talked to his agent(s) and to him about their intentions. They like Green and what he brings to the table.

The Suns have several advantages with Green. 1) He likes it here and he likes Hornacek and McD, 2)They own bird rights, 3) Green went through the "grass is greener" approach before and it backfired. He had a very good seasoning NJ and then signed with the Pacers where he was lost and forgotten.

I think the Suns sign both Green and Dragic (whose cap hold will be substantially less than his ultimate salary) and sort out the log jam with an appropriate trade. I think the guy who ultimately gets traded is Thomas because the Suns will have a capable back-up and Thomas can be dealt to any team because his salary is low ($7M) and it would seem he would want to play for a team where he could start (HOU, Miami, Mil, Det,Indy).

Is this anywhere close to correct...

Projecting 2015-16 Suns payroll
(Contractual obligations plus Dragic and Green resigned)

G Bledsoe- 13.5
G Dragic-15?
G Green- 7?
G Thomas- 7
F Tucker- 5.5
F Mook- 5
F TJ Warren- 2
G Z.Dragic- 1.8
G Ennis- 1.7
G Goodwin- 1.2
PF Keef- 8
C Len- 3.8
C Plumlee- 2.1

Total $$= 59.7M for positions 1,2 and 3
Total$$= 14.9M for positions 4 and 5

With above numbers I have the Suns payroll at 74.6 million before signing the 2015 draft pick(s). This would represent roughly a 15 million dollar rise from '14-'15's "number".

If the Suns do ok this year...say? Get 50 wins/8th seed and give SAS or MEM a hard fought 6 game series, will Sarver be cool with a payroll approaching 80 million next year? He's still not selling out the arena with this group, and how much excitement will there be if the team remains nearly intact.

I think your numbers are pretty close.

I do not know if your are trying to make some point about the spending between front court and back court, but I can only assume you are. As for your spending breakdowns - you have to remember the reason they are like they are is because 2 of the 3 are on rookie contracts. The spending will catch up when the Suns have to pay Len and Plumlee after their rookie deals. I do not think its appropriate to lump the players at the 3 spot in with the guards because none of them play guard. Green is the one true swing man.

If this is some sort of advocacy for a trade for a high priced big man, I do not see a need to trade for one just to balance out spending. There are few, if any, big men available to the Suns that would be a major upgrade at the 4 or 5 position over a developing Len and Markieff. None of the big men potentially available to the Suns are going to put butts in the seats and trading popular players like Dragic or Green will potentially take butts out of the seats.

That said, I do think the Suns will shift the roster somewhat and the likely players would be Thomas and possibly Tucker.

Finally, if you think about draft choices -the Suns are likely to have one or two next year - depending on what the Lakers do. Minnesota's pick is unlikely as is the Lakers pick. If the Suns do what we expect, their pick will be a late lottery or late teens - early 20s pick and the salary hit will not be severe.

I do have a fear of too much money going to the back court, but if like you're guessing a Thomas trade shifts talent and money "forward", then it'll be fine. Like you, I don't see what bigman is out there, and using Thomas to get him? Wow.

The Suns have one power forward...a somewhat undersized and not exactly 'banging" one at that. How the hell are we going to make a move anytime soon. I still believe it's Bledsoe going...not soon, but eventually.

I'm so mixed on Green, but if I had to make the call, I'm shopping him, packaging him in an effort to find a young, cheap PF with potential to compete with Keef. I'm confident TJ can fill (and then some) for Green short term, and I still believe Goodwin is going to be good to very good in a couple years. Zoran is gathering dust...and maybe some regret.

I'm letting Gerald go...shopping him, especially if there's any chance Sarver is squemish about the rapidly rising Suns payroll. The Suns have pretty good coverage for his departure. His value is at the top (save that he's expiring) right now.

[letsgosuns]

I'm hardly the biggest Morrii fan but...

"let's just look at their last five games each"

...tells me plenty about your assessment of the brothers.

Well I only need a small sample size to prove my point. That is exactly how their careers have gone. Look at their game logs if you want to. It will show the exact same kind of pattern as their last five games. And seriously, what do you expect me to do, type out their stats for every single game?

I thought you posted their last 5 statlines because you thought they held value.

Every individual on the team has been inconsistent and their game to game stats would illustrate it.

Got it. You're super down on the Morrii and in your words "want them off the team".

For me they are #4 (Keef) to #7 (Mook) players for a contending team. Good to keep unless a huge piece trade presents itself.

Super down on them is too strong of a statement. I think they are decent players. I want them off the team because I find them both incredibly frustrating to watch because like I said before, their inconsistency makes them unreliable. It so hard to improve your team and take the next step with players that are like that. I am also talking about previous years with them though, not just this year. Like you mentioned, everyone has been inconsistent this year. In a way, their play reminds me of Justin Upton. One series, Upton could look amazing, and then the next series he could go 2 for 12 with 8 strikeouts. He was a frustrating player to watch because he had so much natural talent yet was so inconsistent. Now the Braves are trying to get rid of him too. Although, I like the Morris brothers as people and think they have good character but I cannot stand them as the starting forwards. They are best served as bench players in my opinion. I hope the Suns can acquire an awesome power forward because that is what I believe the Suns need to take the next step.

[Christine-In-AZ]

Well I only need a small sample size to prove my point. That is exactly how their careers have gone. Look at their game logs if you want to. It will show the exact same kind of pattern as their last five games. And seriously, what do you expect me to do, type out their stats for every single game?

I thought you posted their last 5 statlines because you thought they held value.

Every individual on the team has been inconsistent and their game to game stats would illustrate it.

Got it. You're super down on the Morrii and in your words "want them off the team".

For me they are #4 (Keef) to #7 (Mook) players for a contending team. Good to keep unless a huge piece trade presents itself.

Super down on them is too strong of a statement. I think they are decent players. I want them off the team because I find them both incredibly frustrating to watch because like I said before, their inconsistency makes them unreliable. It so hard to improve your team and take the next step with players that are like that. I am also talking about previous years with them though, not just this year. Like you mentioned, everyone has been inconsistent this year. In a way, their play reminds me of Justin Upton. One series, Upton could look amazing, and then the next series he could go 2 for 12 with 8 strikeouts. He was a frustrating player to watch because he had so much natural talent yet was so inconsistent. Now the Braves are trying to get rid of him too. Although, I like the Morris brothers as people and think they have good character but I cannot stand them as the starting forwards. They are best served as bench players in my opinion. I hope the Suns can acquire an awesome power forward because that is what I believe the Suns need to take the next step.

I too believe the Suns will likely need a better PF than Markieff if they want to make some serious runs at a ring. Though I hold out some hope that he's still has some upside left to show.

Bottomline in terms of my reaction to your Morris brothers take or so many others who are forming such extremely strong opinions about individual Suns or the team play overall is ...relax. This Suns team is going through some serious adjustments. Players roles are ill-defined and shifting from game to game. Hornacek and the coaching staff are still trying to figure it out.

Relax, sit back until we get closer to Christmas before making any sort of concrete assessments. No teams are running away with anything at this time. Most teams have adjustment issues like the Suns. Be patient. Be NBA GM-like.

[JDLAW]

Actually the spurs made a pure asset management trade with one of pops favorite players when they sent George hill to Indiana for Leonard. They knew they didn't want to pay him what he wanted on an extension and traded him for an unproven piece in Leonard. And they nearly traded Tony parker early in his career.

Again I think dragic will be back but to think it's some sure thing is crazy. It's also crazy to think this roster is a finished product; suns are only a little over a yr into a rebuild. Moves will be made.

Miroik is 10 games into his NBA career so judging him by that is premature. There a reason he was considered a big time prospect.
Sent from my SM-G900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

Sorry this was not asset management. Hill might have been a favorite but he was hardly a core player with the Spurs - he was a reserve and occasional spot started when Parker was injured. The Spurs knew all along what they were getting with Leonard. That situation is nowhere similar to that of Dragic who was all-NBA and a core member of the Suns team.

As for Parker - nearly does not count.

I guess you and i have different definitions of "asset management" but give this article a read: http://grantland.com/features/analyzing ... ce-finals/

Spurs anticipated a salary situation and made a move to address. that's asset management 101.

That is not what the article says. Read it more carefully and objectively. This is what teams do all the time. The Spurs were set on a player (or two) that they wanted and Indy was set on Hill whom they coveted for some time. The Spurs did not shop Parker - a core member of their team and put a high price on his availability, taking Jefferson's awful deal.

[WeekapaugGroove]

JDLAW -

"Hill would be due an extension after the 2011-12 season, still a year away, and the Spurs anticipated it would take between $7 million and $9 million per year to retain him. They knew it would be hard to pay Hill at that level without going far into the luxury tax.

There were other ways to save money, and the Spurs explored them in hopes of keeping Gregg Popovich’s favorite player, Buford says. They reportedly tried to peddle Richard Jefferson’s awful contract, but couldn’t find a taker. The post-lockout collective bargaining agreement, which wouldn’t be signed until that December, might offer the relief of an amnesty clause, but that was far from certain, and such a clause would require the Spurs to pay out the amnesty victim’s salary.

And then there was Tony Parker, on the books for $12.5 million annually through 2014-15.2 The Spurs reportedly engaged teams much higher in the draft about Parker, attaching Jefferson’s contract as the poison price of obtaining one of the league’s very best point guards. They didn’t shop Parker, but they at least entertained the idea of going forward with Hill as the team’s starting point guard. “We didn’t make calls on Tony,” Buford says. “We accepted calls from teams who had interest in Tony.”"

I find it funny you tell me to take an "objective" read on this. I like you as a poster and find it funny when you shame idiots but I wouldn't consider you the most "objective" poster on this board

[JDLAW]

I do have a fear of too much money going to the back court, but if like you're guessing a Thomas trade shifts talent and money "forward", then it'll be fine. Like you, I don't see what bigman is out there, and using Thomas to get him? Wow.

The Suns have one power forward...a somewhat undersized and not exactly 'banging" one at that. How the hell are we going to make a move anytime soon. I still believe it's Bledsoe going...not soon, but eventually.

I'm so mixed on Green, but if I had to make the call, I'm shopping him, packaging him in an effort to find a young, cheap PF with potential to compete with Keef. I'm confident TJ can fill (and then some) for Green short term, and I still believe Goodwin is going to be good to very good in a couple years. Zoran is gathering dust...and maybe some regret.

I'm letting Gerald go...shopping him, especially if there's any chance Sarver is squemish about the rapidly rising Suns payroll. The Suns have pretty good coverage for his departure. His value is at the top (save that he's expiring) right now.

I do not have your fear and do not believe, at least at this stage of the building process, you make personal decisions on the balance of front court money versus back court Money.

I also believe G Green has little or no trade value for two reasons: 1) he is a low cost expiring contract who can be signed without giving up anything; and, 2( I believe he is viewed as a system player - he works well in the Suns system, but not in others. I do not see a trade of him bringing back much of anything of value.

As for coverage for what he does - they do not have any. Warren in the future will bring a lot to the table, but he cannot do what Green does now. Goodwin is not close and if IT plays a different position and has different responsibilities. Green is the one player on the Suns that, because of his athletic ability and range can get a shot whenever he wants. He is a very hard match-up for other teams.

As for Sarver being squeamish, I do not sense that. He has given the impression that the Suns are willing to spend and the Suns have been more than a little profitable over the past years.

[JDLAW]

JDLAW -

"Hill would be due an extension after the 2011-12 season, still a year away, and the Spurs anticipated it would take between $7 million and $9 million per year to retain him. They knew it would be hard to pay Hill at that level without going far into the luxury tax.

There were other ways to save money, and the Spurs explored them in hopes of keeping Gregg Popovich’s favorite player, Buford says. They reportedly tried to peddle Richard Jefferson’s awful contract, but couldn’t find a taker. The post-lockout collective bargaining agreement, which wouldn’t be signed until that December, might offer the relief of an amnesty clause, but that was far from certain, and such a clause would require the Spurs to pay out the amnesty victim’s salary.

And then there was Tony Parker, on the books for $12.5 million annually through 2014-15.2 The Spurs reportedly engaged teams much higher in the draft about Parker, attaching Jefferson’s contract as the poison price of obtaining one of the league’s very best point guards. They didn’t shop Parker, but they at least entertained the idea of going forward with Hill as the team’s starting point guard. “We didn’t make calls on Tony,” Buford says. “We accepted calls from teams who had interest in Tony.”"

I find it funny you tell me to take an "objective" read on this. I like you as a poster and find it funny when you shame idiots but I wouldn't consider you the most "objective" poster on this board

I have read the article. It does not stand for the point you are trying to make. Hill was a favorite of Pop, but that did not make him a core piece of the Spurs. Parker Ginobli and Duncan were and are the core of that team. Hill was far more like Frye or Tucker in that they are favorites of the coaches but not pieces of the core of the team. Hill was a valuable reserve who he coach liked. He was never going to be a core member of the team. There is also nothing to suggest that the Spurs would not have paid him, but they had a suitor who wanted him badly and the Spurs were able to get a player they coveted greatly and who they view as the core of the team going forward.

Dragic on the other hand is a core piece of the Suns. He is the only player who the Suns can consider a star at this point by virtue of his all-NBA selection. You do not trade that for unproven rookies and the riffraff off of the Bulls bench. If the Suns are going to trade its best and most popular player, you have to get something equivalent in return not a player with potential or draft picks.

I like and respect you as a poster also and believe it or not have given you a fair number of +1s for your insight and tact. But I have to say we'll disagree on this in a spirited manner with no hard feelings. I just do not think this is one of your better suggestions.

[WeekapaugGroove]

JDLAW -

"Hill would be due an extension after the 2011-12 season, still a year away, and the Spurs anticipated it would take between $7 million and $9 million per year to retain him. They knew it would be hard to pay Hill at that level without going far into the luxury tax.

There were other ways to save money, and the Spurs explored them in hopes of keeping Gregg Popovich’s favorite player, Buford says. They reportedly tried to peddle Richard Jefferson’s awful contract, but couldn’t find a taker. The post-lockout collective bargaining agreement, which wouldn’t be signed until that December, might offer the relief of an amnesty clause, but that was far from certain, and such a clause would require the Spurs to pay out the amnesty victim’s salary.

And then there was Tony Parker, on the books for $12.5 million annually through 2014-15.2 The Spurs reportedly engaged teams much higher in the draft about Parker, attaching Jefferson’s contract as the poison price of obtaining one of the league’s very best point guards. They didn’t shop Parker, but they at least entertained the idea of going forward with Hill as the team’s starting point guard. “We didn’t make calls on Tony,” Buford says. “We accepted calls from teams who had interest in Tony.”"

I find it funny you tell me to take an "objective" read on this. I like you as a poster and find it funny when you shame idiots but I wouldn't consider you the most "objective" poster on this board

I have read the article. It does not stand for the point you are trying to make. Hill was a favorite of Pop, but that did not make him a core piece of the Spurs. Parker Ginobli and Duncan were and are the core of that team. Hill was far more like Frye or Tucker in that they are favorites of the coaches but not pieces of the core of the team. Hill was a valuable reserve who he coach liked. He was never going to be a core member of the team. There is also nothing to suggest that the Spurs would not have paid him, but they had a suitor who wanted him badly and the Spurs were able to get a player they coveted greatly and who they view as the core of the team going forward.

Dragic on the other hand is a core piece of the Suns. He is the only player who the Suns can consider a star at this point by virtue of his all-NBA selection. You do not trade that for unproven rookies and the riffraff off of the Bulls bench. If the Suns are going to trade its best and most popular player, you have to get something equivalent in return not a player with potential or draft picks.

I like and respect you as a poster also and believe it or not have given you a fair number of +1s for your insight and tact. But I have to say we'll disagree on this in a spirited manner with no hard feelings. I just do not think this is one of your better suggestions.

No hard feelings at all and appreciate the kind words. We might have a little different definitions of 'asset management and core piece' but I get where you're coming from. We're splitting hairs on the Spurs situation; its a slow friday afternoon for me at work so felt like debating

I'll readily admit that I like Mirotic as a prospect more than most people so I have no problem with anyone thinking he's not as good of a prospect as i do. Heck I love me some Jimmy Butler too and would trade Goran for him in a heartbeat but wouldn't fault anyone for calling me crazy for that opinion.

Again I think there's a better than 50% chance Goran is a Sun well beyond next year. My original point is that IF the Suns front office decides they don't want to pay him a max and lose him for nothing the Bulls seemed like the most obvious trade partner. I say this because they have some assets and are at a point where they would mortgage some future assets for a possible rental in Goran. I think you add him to that team and he could be the missing piece that puts them over the top. Cleveland could be a trade partner but I don't really like Kyrie and I have a feeling they would prefer Bledsoe if they get to the point of moving on. Other than that I can't really think of any other mid season trade destinations for Goran.

[Christine-In-AZ]

I do not have your fear and do not believe, at least at this stage of the building process, you make personal decisions on the balance of front court money versus back court Money.

I also believe G Green has little or no trade value for two reasons: 1) he is a low cost expiring contract who can be signed without giving up anything; and, 2( I believe he is viewed as a system player - he works well in the Suns system, but not in others. I do not see a trade of him bringing back much of anything of value.

As for coverage for what he does - they do not have any. Warren in the future will bring a lot to the table, but he cannot do what Green does now. Goodwin is not close and if IT plays a different position and has different responsibilities. Green is the one player on the Suns that, because of his athletic ability and range can get a shot whenever he wants. He is a very hard match-up for other teams.

As for Sarver being squeamish, I do not sense that. He has given the impression that the Suns are willing to spend and the Suns have been more than a little profitable over the past years.

So what do you think it will mean for/to Zoran & even Goran Dragic when the Suns sign Green to a 3 year 22.5 million dollar contract? Zoran is not a kid, he'll be 26 when Green is resigned, and will have Green, TJ, Goodwin, Mook, eventually Bogdan playing at Zoran's positions.

I believe there will be at least 4 or 5 teams wanting enough for Gerald at the deadline, and the Suns could get back quality (hardly spectacular) return. Couple Green with picks like the 2 Minny 2nd rounders and the acquiring team has decent protection for losing Green to free agency...someone would send the Suns a decent, helpful piece. IMO

I hope you're wrong about the Suns plans for Green. A strategy to try and resign rather than do their best to cash in an asset they've built up from close to zero value 14 months ago..

[Frank Lee]

Not only Green, but Thomas and the MoBros are an empty plate at the trade table. Two Tweeners and a half pint, with their tabs, are not that appetizing.

PS.... I doubt GGreen will be a priority come time to pay his bill...

[bigfoot]

The Spurs are the envy of professional sports. They drafted Tim Duncan and won their first championship with him in his second year in 1999. 15 years later, they are still winning championships with him as a focal point. I cannot think of any team in sports history off the top of my head that can say that. Without Tim Duncan, (who many people and former NBA players consider the best power forward of all time), none of that would have happened and still be happening The combination of Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili is historic, but Duncan is the truly irreplaceable one. Before him, David Robinson could not win a championship no matter who was around him. Tim Duncan arrives and boom, championship in Duncan's second year. Then again in 2003 when Parker was a second year player and Ginobili was a rookie.

Tim Duncan can still dominate a game. It is unbelievable. If he plays at least a couple more seasons, that is talking about dominating a professional sport for two straight decades. Has anyone ever done that in basketball before? I know certain pitchers in baseball have had great careers of domination for 15-20 years, but legitimately dominating and competing for championships every year for close to 20 years in basketball is unheard of.

What I am trying to say is that I do not think it is fair to compare the Suns organization to the Spurs organization. I understand they make great moves and have great scouts and know how to build a team. However, they also lucked out with drafting Tim Duncan, then Parker and Ginobili in more than just a basketball sense. These guys are not only great players, but incredibly unique because all three of them have sacrificed a lot of money in their careers to stay together and help the team win championships. Now that is something that you cannot expect out of players. James Harden refused a 54 million dollar contract offer from the Thunder because he only wanted a max offer of 60 million. Himself, Durant, and Westbrook could have dominated for a long time if they all stayed healthy and he left over six million dollars. Six million dollars! Is the quality of life between making 54 million versus 60 million really that much different? I guess to Harden it is. Now compare that with Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili. You cannot. They are special players and that is why every team wishes they can model the Spurs organization. And I have not even mentioned Popovich yet. One of the best coaches of all time. Any team would love to have him.

To be fair Harden would pay 40% in federal tax and 5% to agent so his net after federal tax would be 30M in OKC and $33M in Texas. In Texas Harden pays 0% income tax on 41 games but 5.25% if he stayed in OKC. So that widens the gap even more $33M versus $27M. Then think about the endorsements. Playing second fiddle to Durant and Westbrook means the OKC endorsement market would be pretty thin. Parker would pick up huge endorsements in France and Ginobli in Argentina. Harden's endorsement options in Houston are way bigger. Would you give up $6M + better endorsements over four years?

[MrMiyagi]

We should just stop paying players more than the league minimum and invest those millions in R&D so we can clone Duncan, Jordan, Magic, Bird and Kareem and be dominant in 18 years.
I don't even think you guys would be happy then.