Trade Idea Thread II

[nickhx2]

we'd be insane not to if it were on the table.

also agree with qrich's very nice analysis of the two players. it always grinds my gears when people try to say redick/crawford are one and the same and redundant, so it's nice to be able to see a solid breakdown.

[kylem4711]

heard a rumor that we would trade deandre for al horford and demarre carrol.

Personally, i would do that. while boring, i love horfords game.

link?

huge fan of horford here....but I know he's torn his pec twice and missed the season for it or something like that.

http://hoopshabit.com/2014/11/19/nba-ru ... l-horford/


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[Sofia]

DJ for Horford and Carroll doesn't work financially under CBA.

It'd have to also include one of:
a) Barnes
b) Barnes and one of Wilcox/Bullock as incentive
c) Wilcox AND Bullock

[Lindecision]

Oh you're selling Redick really short there, it's one thing that he plays off the ball for us, but he's always been an excellent ball handler, way before he came here. He's a great passer and a great all around offensive player, not a one dimensional guy at all. Crawford, on the other hand, is as one dimensional as it gets. Yeah, he's a ball handler, but most of that ball handling results in him creating a shot for himself, shots that he converts at an average efficiency, while JJ is near top of the league efficiency-wise nearly every season. Advanced stats have always put Redick as one of the 30-40 more impactful offensive players in the league, while there's been a few studies on Crawford that put in doubt that he's even a net positive on offense. "He can have nights where he goes off" is not that good of a thing when you average them all and see he's not really very efficient overall. Yesterday he pretty much sucked, but we still looked like world beaters on offense. I'd really love to see what this offense can do without him.

Further than that, there's the fit, like I said on my previous post, we have 2 of the very best offensive players in the game in Paul and Griffin, and both are playmakers and guys that need the ball in their hands a lot. To maximize their skills, we need to surround them with players that can finish the plays they create at a good rate, while not needing the ball in their hands (like Redick and Jordan), instead of having a guy that hogs the ball all the time and might not even be a net positive on all those possessions he takes.

When we're talking about defense, both are similarly bad, but you rarely see opposing offenses purposely attacking JJ every possession, that's because he's not good at stopping his guy, but he's always there to contest and help, he shows effort and that gives the perception that he doesn't allow easy shots (even if when they shoot against his contesting they usually make it), so most offenses don't have him as a weak link. Crawford on the other hand, it's pretty common that our opponents keep forcing his guy against him, even if we hide him on the opponent's worst offensive player. We've seen that countless times.

There's also the thing that Crawford's contract is unguaranteed, therefore easier to move, so he might have slighty more trade value.

What about all the games where we've looked great offensively and its Redick who's been the one that's sucked? They have those games just as often as each other. Your defenition of ball handler must be different to mine. Redick does not have games where he can create off the dribble and get you 5 or more assists. He's not capable of that. Jamal on the other hand is very capable of that. He makes passes that Redick could never make. Yeh you can say he's inconsistent with it, but so is Redick's shooting. If Redick's shooting is off, he has nothing else to offer. That's one dimensional. If Jamal's shooting is off, at least he can create off the dribble and get to the line. That's not one dimensional.

CP can't play 48 minutes a game. Every team needs that 2nd (or 3rd) guy to do damage off the dribble or the offense becomes too predictable. Farmar is not that. Redick is not that. Without Jamal we become even more predictable. Its not like Jamal is taking shots away from CP or Blake. He's doing most of his damage when the starters are on the bench. And when they're playing together its not like Jamal HAS to dribble dribble dribble shoot. He won't be able to fill Redick's role quite as effectively, but at the same time Jamal can do things Redick isn't capable of. As we've seen throughout his career he can create for his teammates off the dribble. Defenders are always on edge because they know at any moment Jamal can have them beat. If Redick isn't shooting well, he's an easy cover.

Jamal just brings more to the table in my eyes. That's what I've seen ever since Redick joined the team. Jamal averages more points, assists and steals. We need that extra creativity. His contract is more desirable so we should be looking to keep that contract and shop Redick first, in my opinion. Toronto is a good fit as that 3rd team in a Jeff Green trade if they can send Boston a 1st. They already have Lou Williams. They're top of the East and that extra shooting could put them over the top. With ALL that being said, if Jamal is the one that gets us Jeff Green or Wilson Chandler then I can't really complain, you gotta do it. This team needs a true SF to make noise in the West.

[Ranma]

What about all the games where we've looked great offensively and its Redick who's been the one that's sucked? They have those games just as often as each other. Your defenition of ball handler must be different to mine. Redick does not have games where he can create off the dribble and get you 5 or more assists. He's not capable of that. Jamal on the other hand is very capable of that. He makes passes that Redick could never make. Yeh you can say he's inconsistent with it, but so is Redick's shooting. If Redick's shooting is off, he has nothing else to offer. That's one dimensional. If Jamal's shooting is off, at least he can create off the dribble and get to the line. That's not one dimensional.

CP can't play 48 minutes a game. Every team needs that 2nd (or 3rd) guy to do damage off the dribble or the offense becomes too predictable. Farmar is not that. Redick is not that. Without Jamal we become even more predictable. Its not like Jamal is taking shots away from CP or Blake. He's doing most of his damage when the starters are on the bench. And when they're playing together its not like Jamal HAS to dribble dribble dribble shoot. He won't be able to fill Redick's role quite as effectively, but at the same time Jamal can do things Redick isn't capable of. As we've seen throughout his career he can create for his teammates off the dribble. Defenders are always on edge because they know at any moment Jamal can have them beat. If Redick isn't shooting well, he's an easy cover.

Jamal just brings more to the table in my eyes. That's what I've seen ever since Redick joined the team. Jamal averages more points, assists and steals. We need that extra creativity. His contract is more desirable so we should be looking to keep that contract and shop Redick first, in my opinion. Toronto is a good fit as that 3rd team in a Jeff Green trade if they can send Boston a 1st. They already have Lou Williams. They're top of the East and that extra shooting could put them over the top. With ALL that being said, if Jamal is the one that gets us Jeff Green or Wilson Chandler then I can't really complain, you gotta do it. This team needs a true SF to make noise in the West.

First off, it still grinds my gears that Doc wasted Eric Bledsoe as a trade chip in order to obtain both J.J. Redick and Jared Dudley. I was uneasy about the Dudley component of that transaction as I preferred Tobias Harris at the time--even when he was unproven then--given his energy and glimpses of potential, but I trusted Doc's championship experience in thinking he knew better on how to build a championship team for himself. I would have been and still would be happier with getting Redick and Harris for Bledsoe. And it's not like that was not a possibility since Orlando was hot for Bled and willing to trade us Arron Afflalo. I still liked the idea of Redick and Dudley over just Afflalo, but Redick and Harris (plus other assets) should have been the deal made. Doc recently said that Tobias Harris was a good player the media didn't know about...apparently, that also applied to him at the time.

Having said that, Redick IMO is the more valuable player. Yeah, Redick is not as creative a playmaker as Crawford but he's more consistent and, in fact, an underrated ball-handler and passer himself who is adept at making the pocket pass. The difference? He's not getting the same amount of opportunity to handle the ball as Crawford as Redick primarily plays with both CP3 and Griffin. Even when he's on the 2nd unit with Crawford, he defers to Crawford mostly because the 2nd unit is bereft of capable finishers who cut to the basket. Crawford is capable of being a fantastic playmaker, but he typically only makes plays for himself. Part of that is because he has to, but another part is because he's quite inclined to.

I've said before we're under-using Redick and overly relying on Crawford as a crutch to the team's detriment. Yeah, Redick's contributions have been negated because of his struggles with his shot, which is the primary source of his strength but he does so much of the little things solidly that QRich3 expertly pointed out in spite of his physical limitations and, as TucsonClip also aptly described, has gravity given his threat as a shooter (normally) as well as his constant off-the-ball movement in drawing defenders to him.

Crawford is capable of putting up spectacular performances that leave a more favorable and memorable impression, but overall, his inconsistency and bouts of vanishing--especially in the postseason--are much more frequent. He's certainly valuable, but to me, more so as a trade piece, especially when choosing between him and Redick...but again, the problem is also what is Doc going to get for him given what is available out on the market and Doc's inept wheeling-and-dealing skills.

[Ranma]

Kirilenko is out of the rotation right now in Brooklyn. At least he could platoon at SF with CDR out and would give us some length and size. Not much of a solution, but could be a cheap fix for the time being.

Things have apparently escalated to a point of no return for AK47. I'm not really thrilled with Kirilenko at this point in his career but if we can get him after a buyout, he'd definitely be an intriguing option. Definitely a situation worth monitoring.

Tim Bontemps, New York Post (11/21/14)

Though league sources indicated Kirilenko’s absence for personal reasons both Friday against the Thunder and Saturday in San Antonio has nothing to do with his lack of recent playing time, the 33-year-old forward clearly has fallen out of Nets coach Lionel Hollins’ plans, and it appears the team soon could be ready to move on.

Sources said no buyout negotiations have taken place, but it’s possible the Nets still could try to trade Kirilenko and his $3.3 million expiring contract. An ESPN.com report said preliminary discussions had taken place with the 76ers, but any trade likely would take place after Dec. 15, when all rookies and players signed to contracts this summer become eligible to be traded.

The Nets would save somewhere around $13 million in payroll and luxury-tax commitments this season if they traded Kirilenko and took no salary back in the deal. If a trade doesn’t materialize, it seems inevitable a buyout would be reached at some point.

Nets Likely to Either Trade or Dump Andrei Kirilenko

[tweet]https://twitter.com/nydninternets/status/535854667247263744[/tweet]

[Quake Griffin]

tobias harris was on the Magic at the time....not n Milwaukee.

not sure what could have enticed Orlando to give him up in a 3 team deal.

Bledsoe is good.
but I'm not sure he's Redick + Tobias good.

[Ranma]

tobias harris was on the Magic at the time....not n Milwaukee.

not sure what could have enticed Orlando to give him up in a 3 team deal.

Bledsoe is good.
but I'm not sure he's Redick + Tobias good.

Yeah, I know. I don't believe we would have needed the Suns' involvement at all and the Bucks participated in the trade in the background to begin with. The plan would have been to trade Bledsoe (and Caron Butler) to Orlando for Harris+ since they both had similar contracts at the time as mid-first-round draft picks. Milwaukee participated in the sign-and-trade of Redick in order for him to get similar (actually more) money than what Minnesota was going to sign him at as a free agent. The Bucks were going to lose Redick regardless and got a couple of second-round draft picks for facilitating the trade. The Magic would have needed to provide more than Harris in order to offset Butler's salary, not to mention that they also valued Bledsoe more highly than Harris at the time. Remember, they were willing to trade Afflalo for Bledsoe and Harris was just beginning to emerge after being acquired from--coincidentally enough--the Bucks in their trade of Redick previously.

Breakdown

Clippers: J.J. Redick, Tobias Harris, plus Orlando Magic assets (Moe Harkless? Andrew Nicholson? Nikola Vujecic? Anthony Randolph? First-round pick?)

Magic: Eric Bledsoe and Caron Butler

Bucks: Second-round picks from both Clippers and Magic.


So instead of getting Redick, Harris, plus whatever else the Magic were willing to throw in in their pursuit of Bledsoe, the Clippers have given up a protected 2017 first-round pick since then in order to dump Jared Dudley, the guy we actually got.

[Ranma]

CSNPhilly.com (11/22/14)

Sam Hinkie is always willing to make a deal and it appears another one could be on the horizon.

According to a tweet from Ohm Youngmisuk of ESPN New York, the Brooklyn Nets have had preliminary talks with the Sixers about a trade involving Andrei Kirilenko and Sergey Karasev. The tweet also states that the Sixers would likely waive Kirilenko if such a deal were completed.

The Sixers would likely require a future draft pick in addition to acquiring the Nets' pair of Russian-born players. It's unclear what the Sixers would send the Nets in return.

Report: Sixers, Nets Talk Trade Involving Kirilenko, Karasev

[Ranma]

heard a rumor that we would trade deandre for al horford and demarre carrol.

Personally, i would do that. while boring, i love horfords game.

http://hoopshabit.com/2014/11/19/nba-ru ... l-horford/


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I've previously noted my disdain for giving DeAndre Jordan a max contract or something even close to it given his unpolished game despite his importance to this team. I actually think there is something to this Horford rumor. Zach Lowe, in a recent Grantland Sports podcast with Kevin Arnovitz, noted at around the 20:30 mark that he's had many people speculate to him that the Clippers are "one declined DeAndre Jordan max away from getting themselves in the Kevin Durant derby a year later". Both Lowe and Arnovitz believe DJ will get a max somewhere. While they agreed that he was a "good" defender, they didn't think he was worthy of Defensive-Player-of-the-Year consideration and rank him at around the 7th best center in the league.

Neither seemed inclined to think that Jordan was max-worthy but Arnovitz, in particular, was close to saying that the team almost has to deal him--barring a lengthy win streak--citing the Horford-Carroll scenario as well as one with Gerald Henderson and Cody Zeller from the Bobcats as theoretical possibilities even as he acknowledged the difficulty in finding the right deal, financially and sensibly.

The Lowe-Arnovitz podcast was posted 3 days earlier than the Wilde-Jaglin podcast that was cited in the Hoops Habit piece. Jaglin may be playing off the aforementioned Grantland podcast or they could all be getting information close to the same sources in and around the organization, but Jaglin notes that the Horford-Carroll talk has been "out there" for a couple of weeks. Jaglin, himself, advocates trading DJ to Boston for Jeff Green and Kelly Olynyk if things don't work themselves out for the Clippers.

Going back to the Jordan-for-Horford-and-Carroll rumor, the deal makes sense for Atlanta as they would be more inclined than the Clips to max out DJ as a young, athletic center to not only build around, but that also brings excitement to an organization struggling with attendance and recovering in the aftermath of the Danny Ferry fiasco. The Clippers would get DeMarre Carroll as another attempt toward the small forward situation, albeit an uninspiring one, and Al Horford as a placeholder in the absence of DJ for a later attempt at Durantula. Horford's $12 million per year cap hit expires at the same time as when Durant will be available as an unrestricted free agent.

While it may not be the immediate solution to get the team over the hump, it would allow the team to remain competitive while also putting the organization in line to pursue the possibility of a true Big 3 in CP3, Durant, and Griffin.

[Lindecision]

I don't think the Durant derby is real. He's going back home to DC. Though that shouldn't affect the judgement on a potential Horford trade. Before the injuries? Yeh! But Horford hasn't looked close to what he once was, so we'd be betting on him being able to get back to that level. He's always been undersized C. Carroll is only a slight upgrade. Its a pretty big risk. One that I'd be willing to take, but only if a Redick/Jamal trade is unworkable as far as upgrading the SF position.

I don't see from Atlanta's side. I don't see DJ wanting to re-sign there. In the event of being dealt, it would make more sense for him to sign a short term deal. The cap is going up and he's on another team anyway, which would remove the advantage of Atlanta having his bird rights. If DJ is being dealt I would prefer Green and Sullinger.

[Neddy]

I don't think the Durant derby is real. He's going back home to DC. Though that shouldn't affect the judgement on a potential Horford trade. Before the injuries? Yeh! But Horford hasn't looked close to what he once was, so we'd be betting on him being able to get back to that level. He's always been undersized C. Carroll is only a slight upgrade. Its a pretty big risk. One that I'd be willing to take, but only if a Redick/Jamal trade is unworkable as far as upgrading the SF position.

I don't see from Atlanta's side. I don't see DJ wanting to re-sign there. In the event of being dealt, it would make more sense for him to sign a short term deal. The cap is going up and he's on another team anyway, which would remove the advantage of Atlanta having his bird rights. If DJ is being dealt I would prefer Green and Sullinger.

Hortford is not an undersized center, he is a PF masquerading as a center. and yes he doesn't look the same after the injury. not Elton Brand different, from before and after his achilles tear, but certainly looks different. being a clipper fan rather than an NBA fan i must admit i don't necessarily watch other games than my clips, but from little highlights i have dug up since this idea popped up, I have my doubts if he can be an upgrade or an equal to what we already have.

at the same time, I understand Ranma's concern about DJ not being a max player because as of now, DJ is not a Max player. it also looks to be certain that the roster as of now seems like just another "always a bridesmaid but never the bride" type of a team. we could use a trade that will not only upgrade for now, but for the long haul. I just don't know what that entails.

[Quake Griffin]

what's with all this DJ is not a max player stuff?


you are what the market says you're worth.
who told you people anything different?

oh you mean he is a max player and you don't want to give that to him?
fine...makes sense...but he's getting it elsewhere.


ima fan of horford....brings a scoring element to the 5....can hit mid range jumpers....bet our offense would look Spurs like with him at the 5.

[Neddy]

the appeal of Horford is not just that he can hit the mid range J but we can use him at his price for two more seasons rather than one of DJ's.

but yeah between the two I take DJ still. DJ leads the league in rebounding not just this season so far but the last season. he has made himself to be a pretty good defensive player to anchor the middle too. Al Horford does bring more to the table but with blake the way he is now, we would suffer even more on the rebounding department with Al than DJ.

what i do wish to see from DJ to earn that max deal from us, is to be at least get close to hitting 50% of free throws. if he just hits 50% the hack a DJ stuff will stop for the most part and he can play through every important minutes of every game barring foul trouble. after all, that's what max players are supposed to be. to be counted at every minute when called for at any point of a game.

with or without DJ being a max player or not, or DJ getting traded or staying, this team can still use a trade. it maybe for that third star to join blake and CP or it maybe for replacing and upgrading role players with certain skill set, but it is not absurd to feel it coming.

[Neddy]

only barnes came to play




oops wrong thread lol

[Lindecision]

what's with all this DJ is not a max player stuff?


you are what the market says you're worth.
who told you people anything different?

oh you mean he is a max player and you don't want to give that to him?
fine...makes sense...but he's getting it elsewhere.


ima fan of horford....brings a scoring element to the 5....can hit mid range jumpers....bet our offense would look Spurs like with him at the 5.

DJ is only getting the max because it will cease to be the max under the new salary cap. He will never be a max player.

[QRich3]

I don't think the Durant derby is real. He's going back home to DC. Though that shouldn't affect the judgement on a potential Horford trade. Before the injuries? Yeh! But Horford hasn't looked close to what he once was, so we'd be betting on him being able to get back to that level. He's always been undersized C. Carroll is only a slight upgrade. Its a pretty big risk. One that I'd be willing to take, but only if a Redick/Jamal trade is unworkable as far as upgrading the SF position.

I don't see from Atlanta's side. I don't see DJ wanting to re-sign there. In the event of being dealt, it would make more sense for him to sign a short term deal. The cap is going up and he's on another team anyway, which would remove the advantage of Atlanta having his bird rights.

Yeah I agree with this, Durant is a pipe-dream and it'd be stupid if we risk losing any assets for a long shot at him. He's either staying in OKC or going to the Wizards, players of his level don't just go around shopping and joining next man's team.

I agree that the Hawks have no reason to trade Horford for an expiring DJ that probably won't want to stay with them after the season. If they did somehow, pull the freaking trigger before they change their minds, Horford is exactly what we need, a competent two way center that fits offensively with Blake and can defend the rim even though he's undersized and not a traditional shot blocker. I'd say any struggles he's going through right now are due to rust of not playing for nearly a season, he'll be fine.

We've been keeping DJ on the hope that he'll evolve into a competent rim protector, we've overpaid him in this contract, and we might overpay him in the next one, just on the chance he develops into that guy. At what point do we give up on him and realize we're never gonna be a top defensive team with him as the anchor? If we max him out and he doesn't improve, we're saddled for 4 more years with a big contract that we can't move, and any chance at a title goes away. Then again, if that small chance that he figures it out happens, we'd be better than with any trade we might make. It's hard to evaluate really.

[LACtdom]

DJ is left completely open in every game because they know that he isn't a threat on the offensive end. The bad part is that this allows DJ's defender to stay under the rim and act as help defense. A center who can shoot FT jumpers might help us.

[Lindecision]

So I just watched the Hornets game on league pass. Jamal made me look pretty stupid with all the wide open guys he decided not to pass to.

[nickhx2]

that's ok. however it makes you look, it's not nearly as bad as how the dumb GM's look when they sign or trade for him.

i can forgive a fan who sees him get hot and hit 30 footers all game. i can't forgive the idiot coach or gm who, by now, should clearly see all the negative things he brings to a team.