RealGM Top 100 List #54

[tsherkin]

Vote Alex English

KJ was sick when he was healthy, but longevity is an issue for me between these two.

[Basketballefan]

I have been a non-supporter of Iverson pretty consistently, but if Nique is getting votes, Iverson does deserve to be in the discussion. Nique and Iverson are very reasonably comparable plaers. It doesn't mean I will vote for Iverson over superior scorers like English or Carter, nor does it mean I value what he brings more than I value the contributions of a Dennis Rodman or Bobby Jones, but in the discusson . . . sure.

That's only JB voting for him...

Its a shame though that the voting pool is so low now...if it wouldve been like it was early in the project we'd see a lot of votes for a lot of different players.

[trex_8063]

3. I really respect the on/off analysis, but it's not the same thing as +/-. And while that's not entirely a bad thing because it gives some information +/- can't, it's also far noisier. Fundamentally it's just tough to get past the fact that +/- data doesn't rate Iverson very well, and teams basically did okay when they moved on from him.

Fair enough, though I must admit a touch of concern about internal consistency wrt this statement given RAPM doesn't rate Pau Gasol very well, either (a comparison I made); but you voted for him in the last run-off (even when given a non-Iverson option).
Further, the Griz didn't fall off a cliff when Gasol left. The Griz don't get a damn thing of value in that trade except the rights to Marc Gasol (who wouldn't play until '09) and some future draft picks.....yet they don't decline any further when Pau leaves (admittedly they were already at rock bottom while Pau was there, something that never happened to Philly during Iveron's tenure there).

I do note a small dip in teams Iverson leaves (even when they get decent---if not equal---replacement players in the trade): Philly in '07 (lose Iverson early in the year) had 3 fewer wins and fell by 1.16 SRS points from '06 (to the lowest SRS seen there during Iverson's prime, even a little worse than what was seen in '04 when Iverson missed 34 games and was playing sub-par in the other 48) despite obtaining a pretty good player in Andre Miller, as well as an OK role player in Joe Smith in the exchange.

Denver in '09 gets a very nice player in Chauncey Billups in the trade, plus get to have Nene healthy and improved (he played just 16 games in '08 while Iverson was there), also a pleasant surprise in Birdman that year......yet they actually fall off marginally by 0.61 SRS points from where they were in '08 with Iverson. The four wins added and better resultant better playoff seeding was largely a result of a weaker injury-affected, if not depleted, Western conference (all Texas teams, as well as Hornets, Jazz affected).

[trex_8063]

Weirdly, I'm a touch relieved Iverson randomly (Basketballefan, I'm lookin' at you) misses a run-off after making that five times in a row. But losing a sixth consecutive run-off would have been too depressing. After awhile one begins to feel like he's just throwing his vote away.

And yet, here we are at run-off, and tbh I can't decide.
I rate KJ's peak higher. The typical caliber of play throughout primes: I'd rate KJ a bit higher. However, although both had roughly 9-year primes, English's amounts to 733 rs games vs. just 599 for KJ's prime. And English has 1193 total rs games (vs. just 735 for KJ). Is that longevity/durability advantage enough to surpass KJ's prime/peak play advantage? idk, feels really close to me. I'd say if all of those 1193 games English played were truly value-added, then I think I'd easily say yes. Trouble is, his first and last seasons (139 games) are basically negligible.

[Doctor MJ]

3. I really respect the on/off analysis, but it's not the same thing as +/-. And while that's not entirely a bad thing because it gives some information +/- can't, it's also far noisier. Fundamentally it's just tough to get past the fact that +/- data doesn't rate Iverson very well, and teams basically did okay when they moved on from him.

Fair enough, though I must admit a touch of concern about internal consistency wrt this statement given RAPM doesn't rate Pau Gasol very well, either (a comparison I made); but you voted for him in the last run-off (even when given a non-Iverson option).
Further, the Griz didn't fall off a cliff when Gasol left. The Griz don't get a damn thing of value in that trade except the rights to Marc Gasol (who wouldn't play until '09) and some future draft picks.....yet they don't decline any further when Pau leaves (admittedly they were already at rock bottom while Pau was there, something that never happened to Philly during Iveron's tenure there).

I do note a small dip in teams Iverson leaves (even when they get decent---if not equal---replacement players in the trade): Philly in '07 (lose Iverson early in the year) had 3 fewer wins and fell by 1.16 SRS points from '06 (to the lowest SRS seen there during Iverson's prime, even a little worse than what was seen in '04 when Iverson missed 34 games and was playing sub-par in the other 48) despite obtaining a pretty good player in Andre Miller, as well as an OK role player in Joe Smith in the exchange.

Denver in '09 gets a very nice player in Chauncey Billups in the trade, plus get to have Nene healthy and improved (he played just 16 games in '08 while Iverson was there), also a pleasant surprise in Birdman that year......yet they actually fall off marginally by 0.61 SRS points from where they were in '08 with Iverson. The four wins added and better resultant better playoff seeding was largely a result of a weaker injury-affected, if not depleted, Western conference (all Texas teams, as well as Hornets, Jazz affected).

Well but Gasol still looks better than Iverson by the stat, and I only voted for Gasol in the runoff, so there isn't really anything weird about what I did, is there?

Aside from that there's the matter that I specifically talked about Gasol's place as a "high fit" guy for good teams, and that I respect that a lot. If I had to have a team that was unipolar in its offense, I'd take Iverson over Gasol. Realistically though I wouldn't want to use that approach if those were my only two options. So either way, we simply have to build up the team more, and I have a lot more confidence doing it with Gasol.

[lukekarts]

Alex English for me. Stands out more relative to his peers. Kevin Johnson was a very good point guard, but historically I've never felt the position was that important; Johnson doesn't have an exceptional list of achievements to influence my thoughts on that. English was perhaps the better all round player and certainly has the benefit of playing for longer, and various arguments for him here have made me not doubt this vote one bit.

[Moonbeam]

Sorry I've been lame lately - organizing final grades for 1000+ students and all of the associated administrative and typographical headaches have kept me tied up.

My vote here is for Alex English. KJ was indeed a star, but I don't know that he was any better than English at his peak, whose reliable presence helped Denver be offensively elite for a long time, and whose playoff performances were also quite strong. I don't think KJ has a serious enough defense advantage to overcome the fact that English did his thing over a broader (with respect to longevity) and deeper (with respect to durability) timeframe.

KJ is well worth considering at this spot, though. I'll consider him, Moncrief, Lanier, Sam Jones and ... Iverson for my next vote!

[SactoKingsFan]

My run-off vote goes to Alex English. Although KJ may have peaked higher, I think the efficient volume scoring, ability to anchor an offense, longevity and durability of English gives him the clear overall edge. IMO, KJ shouldn't get in before Billups (probably my next vote) due to significant longevity/durability issues.

Also looking at Carter, Manu, Wilkins, Iverson, Thurmond, Hill, Hayes and Lanier as potential candidates.

Run-off Vote: Alex English



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[Owly]

Looks like it's breaking towards English (7 to 1 in runoff votes from 3-3). Whilst he wasn't my choice between the two available, I don't mind the English pick, the minutes edge nearly made me pick him in the runoff.

[Clyde Frazier]

Kevin Johnson was definitely a great talent with impressive production, and has a case for being underrated during his playing days. Certainly one of my favorites to watch back then. His overall production drops a bit in the playoffs, and he didn’t have a great finals against CHI in 93:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#CHI-PHO

I wouldn’t kill him for it, but it’s still worth noting. Main issue here with johnson is durability and relative longevity. From 89-97, he missed an average of 15.5 games per season, and had a 3 year stretch where he missed a total of 83 games. Outside of those 9 seasons, he basically just tailed off and couldn’t extend his career.

[penbeast0]

OK, calling this one for Alex English.