Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselves?

Dr. Detfink · Post #1 » by **Dr. Detfink** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:46 pm

It took less than 20 games for reality to set in with a majority of Knick fans: This team sucks.

Going back to end of last season, the arrival of Phil Jackson took the city by storm that electrified Knick fans for the first time since the late 90s. The fans enjoyed all the cryptic things Phil said to the media, almost toying with the NY media. For once, every one felt, "Now we have someone who understands what it takes to build a winner in NYC..."

Phil was a player the last time the Knicks were Champions. You couldn't blame the optimism.

He fired the apologist, Mike Woodson...then traded disgruntled Tyson Chandler and Ray-Gun Felton to the Mavs for TWO point guards. That's more than Donnie Walsh AND Isiah Thomas did his entire tenure as front office President. Bought up some draft picks and made some shrewd signings.

When Carmelo Anthony took the tangling Golden Carrot and came back to NYK, Phil released his "scouting report" on Think Melo was also taken for a ride as well. I don't think even he thought the Knicks would be THIS bad.

Then came out this "Scouting Report" that every one cooed over as if we all got a insider look in the mind of the Zen Buddhist.

Well, it all sounded good on paper until it was put into action. That's when the cold harsh reality set in...this team is going nowhere.

*losing air cabin pressure*

So what do you think? Did the fans lie to themselves or did Phil "embellish" a few truths about this season when he most likely wanted to dumb a lot of dead weight, draft high, and start the rebuilding process...even if it means risking Melo to opt out early?

What is this team good at...and what direction is it going in?

Your thoughts....

Post #2 » by **moocow007** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:51 pm

I had mentioned this when it was announced that Jackson would be the GM. While I was thrilled (Phil Jackson is a legend, a former Knick, blah, blah), I did question how good he could be...as a GM. A role that he really has no track record or experience with. As a head coach and motivator? Obviously, none better and no question. But as a GM? Hard to say that that was a coup for the Knicks. One would hope that he would be able to carry his ability to get players to play "the right way" to his ability to determine which of those qualities apply to players that he would either draft, sign or trade for. Hard to tell how well the translation has gone given the short time period and lack of starting resources. Jason Smith appears to have been a flub but that's about it so far.

Big Chan · Post #3 » by **Big Chan** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:03 pm

Phil Jackson is Team President, not GM. He doesn't have to handle day to day BS that a GM does. The only problem I see here is that Phil didn't get to pick his GM.

Dr. Detfink · Post #4 » by **Dr. Detfink** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:15 pm

No. I don't believe there was a decision that Phil didn't play a hand on. This is why he told Dolan to stay the F- away. Sorry. He gets some responsibility for the GM moves good and/or bad.

Post #5 » by **j4remi** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:22 pm

Go back to preseason projection threads and most expected us to fight for a playoff spot in a weak East. Who was fooled?

Workforce250 · Post #6 » by **Workforce250** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:23 pm

Jackson fooled noone. He never promised a Championship run this year. The plan was to clean house of CAA, disgruntled players and instill more professionalism top to bottom. That's it.

Fisher is awesome and the team is playing better though we've started a rookie bench guard throughout the first 20 games.

Zenith · Post #7 » by **Zenith** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:23 pm

Phil said this was going to take a few years to fix. The media might have spun the moves positively so fans would buy into the changes but anyone thinking this team was going to make the playoffs this year was off their rocker. I also don't recall Phil agreeing with those expectations or changing his long term planning.

Post #8 » by **Deeeez Knicks** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:31 pm

i dont think many of us thought the Knicks would be this bad.

But I think most of us knew Phil would need at least next offseason to start turning this thing around.

Its just way too early in the process to form any kind of judgement either way. Just need to wait and see what happens.

MaseInYourFace · Post #9 » by **MaseInYourFace** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:35 pm

Give me a break. No one should feel fooled. Fans always tend to be overly pessimistic or optimistic. I honestly thought the Knicks would be a bit better than this but you know what the team just isn't good enough. They have a lot of flaws and its compounded further by the fact they are learning a new system, have players injured, and the coach is a rookie coach. Any fan who just thought having Phil here would make things better overnight just is not very smart

Post #10 » by **moocow007** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:39 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:i dont think many of us thought the Knicks would be this bad.

But I think most of us knew Phil would need at least next offseason to start turning this thing around.

Its just way too early in the process to form any kind of judgement either way. Just need to wait and see what happens.

Yep pretty much.

MaseInYourFace · Post #11 » by **MaseInYourFace** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:43 pm

Phil has a long term plan and it's barely starting so he is not worried, not one bit. A lot of the media and fans want to see someones head chopped off already. You have guys like Isola throwing out troll bait but Jackson will continue to follow his plan and monitor it from afar unless something pressing is on the horizon.

KnickswiththeKnack · Post #12 » by **KnickswiththeKnack** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:43 pm

Fooled? His seat isn't even warm yet. I can't actually believe anyone wants to judge him based on 2 months of one season. Let the man work!

Handledatruth · Post #13 » by **Handledatruth** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:48 pm

We all understand that if Carmelo walked this team would have been extremely bad (like worst than Sixers bad) right? Phil Jackson was prepared to take on the Knicks with or without Carmelo, knowing that he had no current assets to fix the main issues plaguing the team (inconsistent production from all the guard positions and lack of interior defenders that aren't offensive liabilities). I'll add a third weakness as well which is lack of athleticism in general across all positions.

So what was done to fix this?
Removed Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton for a productive point guard, a young undersized two guard with potential, a hustling forward with some athleticism, and a 10 minute per game big man. Seeing that we lost Calderon for the first games of the season the record is not surprising at all. I love Shane Larkin's motor but his PG skills are even worst than Felton's. We've gotten a slightly better Shump, an inconsistent JR, and THJ barely shooting 41% from the field. Also our leading rebounder at a blazing 7.4 per game is Amare Stoudamire who is a worse rebounder than Melo (our leader last year at 8.4). Triangle, Read and React, Pick and Roll, Switching, in the end you need production and players from last year (with the exception of Shump and Prigioni) are producing less this year. Also none of the newcomers have yet to make a serious impact on either end of the floor. This leaves us with a worse team than last year. Oh and then there's Melo's back...

Watching some NCAA ball might do everyone some good, because this team is going to need that type of help come draft time. And please stop acting like these results were unexpected. The only way this team gets a legit shot at the playoff is if they start overachieving and Melo goes into Kobe chuck mode. We've tried the Melo chuck mode before and it didnt work out too well in the playoffs, so let's watch the system round out with the right players over the next 2-3 years.

Bill Pidto · Post #14 » by **Bill Pidto** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:29 pm

I haven't soured on Phil at all. I've soured on Melo.

All the talk about Melo buying in was BS.

spikeslovechild · Post #15 » by **spikeslovechild** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:45 pm

It may be too early for calling on Phil to be fired but it certainly isn't to early to judge his moves (or lack there of) last offseason and while advising Dolan.

The two major minuses so far are nixing the Lowry trade and the Chandler trade. His big coup was signing Melo in which he offered him 20 million more then the next highest bidder.

He's been pretty much an abject failure at this point. I don't know why some here continue to give him a pass, I guess they are just happy Dolans not running things eventhough the guy they replaced him is a check out by 4, vacation in LA, totally detached, Mike Holmgren type.

Yankeeknickfan · Post #16 » by **Yankeeknickfan** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:49 pm

Yep this team fooled me with those wins vs clevand and Charlotte

Knicks_Fan2 · Post #17 » by **Knicks_Fan2** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:50 pm

Bill Pidto wrote:I haven't soured on Phil at all. I've soured on Melo.

All the talk about Melo buying in was BS.

Exactly what hasn't he bought into?

MaseInYourFace · Post #18 » by **MaseInYourFace** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:57 pm

Bill Pidto wrote:I haven't soured on Phil at all. I've soured on Melo.

All the talk about Melo buying in was BS.

Huh?

Workforce250 · Post #19 » by **Workforce250** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:58 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:It may be too early for calling on Phil to be fired but it certainly isn't to early to judge his moves (or lack there of) last offseason and while advising Dolan.

The two major minuses so far are nixing the Lowry trade and the Chandler trade. His big coup was signing Melo in which he offered him 20 million more then the next highest bidder.

He's been pretty much an abject failure at this point. I don't know why some here continue to give him a pass, I guess they are just happy Dolans not running things eventhough the guy they replaced him is a check out by 4, vacation in LA, totally detached, Mike Holmgren type.

As far as Shump for Lowry, it took our 1st rounder which some agree is valuable in our development.
So Jackson had bigtime foresight on this one. Remember Shump was not nearly showibg the talent he's currently displaying.
Secondly, it's more important to get the organization right, .top-to-bottom for a serious and numerous long term runs at a Championship.

MaseInYourFace · Post #20 » by **MaseInYourFace** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:04 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:It may be too early for calling on Phil to be fired but it certainly isn't to early to judge his moves (or lack there of) last offseason and while advising Dolan.

The two major minuses so far are nixing the Lowry trade and the Chandler trade. His big coup was signing Melo in which he offered him 20 million more then the next highest bidder.

He's been pretty much an abject failure at this point. I don't know why some here continue to give him a pass, I guess they are just happy Dolans not running things eventhough the guy they replaced him is a check out by 4, vacation in LA, totally detached, Mike Holmgren type.

You have the perfect avi. Really fits the personality you get across in your posts.

As for your point about Phil being detached. It's 2014. I don't believe he needs to be here in NYC every day or follow the team everywhere to do his job effectively.