GT: Hawks (7-6) VS Pelicans (7-6)

[ATLHawksfan21]

Watch the year play out.

I will guarantee you two things.

-your assumption that Teague reached his max level of play last year is off by a mile.
-this team will be far above a .500 record after all 82 games are played.

Teague is about to abuse kemba walker tonight.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Jamaaliver]

I will guarantee you two things.

-your assumption that Teague reached his max level of play last year is off by a mile.
-this team will be far above a .500 record after all 82 games are played.

Noted. And I hope you are right.

But 20 years of Hawks BBall. 5 years of watching Teague. 2+ seasons of mediocre Ferry-led Basketball have made me skeptical.

I HAVE to see it.

6 months ago you promised me Pero Antic would dominate Roy Hibbert and lead us to an upset in the first round of the playoffs.

I hope this guarantee is more accurate.

[theatlfan]

You are absolutely correct. But one way around it is that a team can draft a player (for another team) and then trade that player like what CLE did with Minny. If there was a guy available that we like, we handshake that deal and finalize everything after the fact. Since Ferry is no longer here, hopefully teams would trust us to actually go through with a deal we commit to.

While I don't disagree with the larger point, overstatement and hyperbole only detract from the argument. In no way does the article linked (nor any other article that I've seen from that time) say that Ferry "committed" to a trade then backed out. Maybe committed to the idea that it was either MIL or no one then eventually decided no one when he saw the final deal? Sure, but the implication that he had a deal that was agreed upon then he backed out is really libelous if you're citing this article to say that.

The other point to bring to the fore is to question how the team would look now if we had pulled the trigger on these deals. In retrospect, those 3 players MIL had on the table were, at best, empty value expirings or, possibly more appropriate, negative value players. MIL gave value to dump LRMAM that off-season; Udoh never played and wasn't retained in RFA; Udrih was just an expiring IIRC. The 1st would probably have netted the Greek Freak, but we should note that, at the time, it was just another mid-1st in what was considered the worst draft in a generation. OTOH, the cap space and win now attitude probably led directly or indirectly to the following moves: a) signing Millsap, b) resigning Korver, c) firing Drew, and d) hiring Coach Bud - not to mention the %-age chance we could have worked a more advantageous SNT. In that perspective I can't blame Ferry for the delay in pulling the trigger...

[Jamaaliver]

While I don't disagree with the larger point, overstatement and hyperbole only detract from the argument. In no way does the article linked (nor any other article that I've seen from that time) say that Ferry "committed" to a trade then backed out. Maybe committed to the idea that it was either MIL or no one then eventually decided no one when he saw the final deal? Sure, but the implication that he had a deal that was agreed upon then he backed out is really libelous if you're citing this article to say that.

Sorry. I thought it was still common knowledge that Ferry was deep in talks to trade Smoove to MIL and then bailed at the last minute, literally. Leaving MIL too late to engage other teams in a similar deal.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/304686536467816448[/tweet]

Source: Atlanta Hawks blow up deal at last minute that would’ve sent Josh Smith to Milwaukee.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDn5nIvQHd8[/youtube]

OTOH, the cap space and win now attitude probably led directly or indirectly to the following moves: a) signing Millsap, b) resigning Korver, c) firing Drew, and d) hiring Coach Bud - not to mention the %-age chance we could have worked a more advantageous SNT. In that perspective I can't blame Ferry for the delay in pulling the trigger...

Millsap and Korver are nice guys, great complimentary pieces...but I don't think the franchise would truly suffer had they not not signed in 2013.

I believe Drew was destined to leave regardless. And DF was determined to get Bud, SVG or another credible coach in here no matter what.

I do believe that three draft picks in the teens could have been enough to: A) draft three contributors to groom long term B) been enough ammo to negotiate for a nice young, long term piece or C) move up into the top ten for a player we really liked.

Let me just say: A lineup of Gorgui Dieng, Giannis and Tim hardaway, Jr. could be the type of haul that turns a franchise's fortunes around.

Those three would fill in positions of need, complement Horford and Teague and give us the type of ammunition needed to eye a big trade moving forward. It'd definitely be better than what we got for Smoove...nothing at all.

[theatlfan]

While I don't disagree with the larger point, overstatement and hyperbole only detract from the argument. In no way does the article linked (nor any other article that I've seen from that time) say that Ferry "committed" to a trade then backed out. Maybe committed to the idea that it was either MIL or no one then eventually decided no one when he saw the final deal? Sure, but the implication that he had a deal that was agreed upon then he backed out is really libelous if you're citing this article to say that.

Sorry. I thought it was still common knowledge that Ferry was deep in talks to trade Smoove to MIL and then bailed at the last minute, literally. Leaving MIL too late to engage other teams in a similar deal.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/304686536467816448[/tweet]

Source: Atlanta Hawks blow up deal at last minute that would’ve sent Josh Smith to Milwaukee.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDn5nIvQHd8[/youtube]

Again, not pulling the trigger on a deal that was the other team's best offer as all these articles are saying is a *lot* different than agreeing to a deal then backing out. It's nowhere close to being similar. To even imply the latter as you did earlier is borderline libel on your part.

OTOH, the cap space and win now attitude probably led directly or indirectly to the following moves: a) signing Millsap, b) resigning Korver, c) firing Drew, and d) hiring Coach Bud - not to mention the %-age chance we could have worked a more advantageous SNT. In that perspective I can't blame Ferry for the delay in pulling the trigger...

Millsap and Korver are nice guys, great complimentary pieces...but I don't think the franchise would truly suffer had they not not signed in 2013.

I believe Drew was destined to leave regardless. And DF was determined to get Bud, SVG or another credible coach in here no matter what.

I do believe that three draft picks in the teens could have been enough to: A) draft three contributors to groom long term B) been enough ammo to negotiate for a nice young, long term piece or C) move up into the top ten for a player we really liked.

Let me just say: A lineup of Gorgui Dieng, Giannis and Tim hardaway, Jr. could be the type of haul that turns a franchise's fortunes around.

Those three would fill in positions of need, complement Horford and Teague and give us the type of ammunition needed to eye a big trade moving forward. It'd definitely be better than what we got for Smoove...nothing at all.

All of this ignores the facts that 1) we could probably land more for either Korver or Millsap than the deal on the table for Smith, 2) there wouldn't have been a bunch of coaches lined up to take a job where the GM had already signaled a rebuilding project was underway (IIRC, Coach Bud said he wouldn't have taken the job under those circumstances), and 3) we weren't the only team that passed on those draftees and hitting on one of them (besides THJ who is really, really overrated) would be good and/or lucky so forth all 3.

Again, I'm not in love with Ferry and would agree that his execution of his "rebuild in place" plan was terrible and will really hurt us in the short and possibly long run. Having said that, the MIL deal is *not* a deal that I'd point to as an example of the failures of Ferry's tenure. The decision not to take a 1st for three salary dumps and someone you state was playing at an AS level is the type of deal well-run organizations generally avoid.

[atlantabbq99]

The bucks trade was nothing to get excited about. It was 3 scrubs and a protected draft pick. The Hawks wouldn't have been able to get Antetokounmpo or Parker, the Hawks would have probably gotten the bucks' pick this year if they make the playoffs, which also won't be that great also.

I consider the bucks offer as getting nothing

[ATLHawksfan21]

I will guarantee you two things.

-your assumption that Teague reached his max level of play last year is off by a mile.
-this team will be far above a .500 record after all 82 games are played.

Noted. And I hope you are right.

But 20 years of Hawks BBall. 5 years of watching Teague. 2+ seasons of mediocre Ferry-led Basketball have made me skeptical.

I HAVE to see it.

6 months ago you promised me Pero Antic would dominate Roy Hibbert and lead us to an upset in the first round of the playoffs.

I hope this guarantee is more accurate.

I dare you to go find the post where I said antic would dominate Hibbert. I never said such a thing, although antic did dominate hibbert defensively. All i said was teague and antic would be the reasons why we would win that series. I would have been right if antic didnt lose all confidence in his shot during that series, which is something that is impossible to predict.

You are starting to embarrass yourself more and more. I have to agree with atlfan about your obvious bias against ferry leading you to post straight lies as well. Ferry has never backed out of an agreed upon deal yet you continuously post that he has.

Keep doubting teague to your own dismay. This is now his team and you should learn to love it as it's to the betterment of this team.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Jamaaliver]

I dare you to go find the post where I said antic would dominate Hibbert.

We have played Indy twice this year with our current starting 5 and we beat them by double digits both times. Pero has dominated Hibbert in both matchups...

The fact is, Pero and Teague are going to win this Indy series for us. He's going to be a major factor in the next round as well.

!

There is nothing Hibbert can do to defend Antic better

Well I don't think we have much to worry about then. Pero has completely shut Hibbert down in the first 2 games.

We know that Pero Antic destroyed Hibbert in both games and made him completely useless.

Just like Jamaal discrediting the mismatch that we have with Antic vs Hibbert by saying oh he will just guard someone else. Please tell me who else he will guard.

You REPEATEDLY cited Pero's dominance over a two game span in the regular season as a primary factor for why we would win.
You did this incessantly. Later, you specifically stated PERO and TEAgue as the reasons we would win.

Now, you're saying you weren't implying Pero would continue to dominate Hibbert in the playoffs?

Seriously?

[Jamaaliver]

Again, not pulling the trigger on a deal that was the other team's best offer as all these articles are saying is a *lot* different than agreeing to a deal then backing out. It's nowhere close to being similar. To even imply the latter as you did earlier is borderline libel on your part.

Yeah, I'm gonna respectfully disagree here. Ferry engaged the team for days. There was a fair amount of good faith at play as MIL focused on a deal for Smoove. DF backing out literally seconds before the deal was to be finalized with the NBA is absolutely a no-no.

Libelous?

Please.

Leading an organization into thinking a deal was on the verge of agreement and then backing out at the last minute is bad for business. How could any team work with us in good faith on a blockbuster deal knowing our history of backing out and leaving trade partners without other options.

[Jamaaliver]

You are starting to embarrass yourself more and more. I have to agree with atlfan about your obvious bias against ferry leading you to post straight lies as well. Ferry has never backed out of an agreed upon deal yet you continuously post that he has.

<SIGH>

It's an agenda to hold a leader responsible for his failures? The team's record has declined. The attendance suffered. The draft picks were less than stellar. The scandal he caused was damaging.

Being critical of a losing franchise isn't an agenda. His decisions were a mixed bag.

And I don't consider it a lie. I consider the business practices DF maintained as underhanded and unethical. From the scouting report, to the manner he treated Larry Drew at the end of his tenure, to the fact he cleaned house of any persons of color in high ranking positions within the Hawks after taking over.

Go revisit the MIL trade from 2013. Visit the BUcks sites and MIL papers and read the many articles that articulate the same thing. Ferry negotiated, and just before the deal could be finalized, when MIL was unable to do anything else, he bolted. Like a coward.

I cheered Ferry when he arrived. I fawned over him after the JJ trade. And then I watched misstep after misstep.

And then I lost all faith in the man.

Then, I lost all respect for him.

I know you believe he did a fantastic job and shouldn't be held responsible for his mistakes. But I do.

Being a leader means taking ownership of the mistakes. And sharing the credit for successes. Sadly, we have few successes under his tenure to relish.

Bud...Dennis...that's about it.

I stand by my previous statement. Other GMs had to be wary that engaging DF in trade talks was risky as he could not be trusted to see agreed-to deals to finality.

[theatlfan]

Again, not pulling the trigger on a deal that was the other team's best offer as all these articles are saying is a *lot* different than agreeing to a deal then backing out. It's nowhere close to being similar. To even imply the latter as you did earlier is borderline libel on your part.

Yeah, I'm gonna respectfully disagree here. Ferry engaged the team for days. There was a fair amount of good faith at play as MIL focused on a deal for Smoove. DF backing out literally seconds before the deal was to be finalized with the NBA is absolutely a no-no.

Libelous?

Please.

Leading an organization into thinking a deal was on the verge of agreement and then backing out at the last minute is bad for business. How could any team work with us in good faith on a blockbuster deal knowing our history of backing out and leaving trade partners without other options.

Just because you're dealing in good faith doesn't mean a deal will happen. If MIL was disappointed, then they have no one to blame but themselves. They could have, you know, met our asking price; We asked for Monta who had a PO the next season and they countered with 3 role players with $$ going into the next season. If they are mad the deal fell through then they have no one to blame but themselves. If anything, the next guy in line should know that we'd be willing to walk away from a deal over taking pennies on the dollar and/or taking a deal where nothing could actually be preferable to what's on the table.

And yes, GMs take their word *very* seriously. Our former GM basically got the entire ASG in court rather than back down on his word with PHX. Think about that: we've had guys who was willing to get his bosses to turn our franchise into a laughingstock over reneging on a deal and you basically state here that this is exactly what Ferry did to MIL. So, yes, you're accusation is pretty d@mning to Ferry's professional reputation. Sure, nothing will come of it because you (as well as I and everyone on this Message Board) are below Ferry's radar, but there have been cases of lawsuits based on false message board posts (albeit not with free fanboy sites like this on).

[MaceCase]

Sorry. I thought it was still common knowledge that Ferry was deep in talks to trade Smoove to MIL and then bailed at the last minute, literally. Leaving MIL too late to engage other teams in a similar deal.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/304686536467816448[/tweet]

You do realize that Milwaukee still managed to trade for JJ Redick using part of the players included in the Smoove package, correct? So it would seem that this "high and dry" scenario that you are trying to paint is just a tad frivolous, no?

[Jamaaliver]

You do realize that Milwaukee still managed to trade for JJ Redick using part of the players included in the Smoove package, correct? So it would seem that this "high and dry" scenario that you are trying to paint is just a tad frivolous, no?

It is my understanding that the trade we were in talks for included MIL/ATL/ORL. With Smoove ending up in MIL.

After Ferry backed out at the last minute, ORL & MIL completed their portions of the trade with Beno Udrih being discarded and JJ Redick, Ish Smith and Gustavo Ayon going to MIL instead.


I stand by my previous statement:

...Ferry was deep in talks to trade Smoove to MIL and then bailed at the last minute, literally. Leaving MIL too late to engage other teams in a similar deal.

In addition, I think we all can agree that engaging in talks for Josh Smith, but being forced to settle for just JJ Redick and Gustavo Ayon is clearly a disappointment.

[MaceCase]

I think we all can agree that to satisfy your fantasy we will believe that NBA GMs are incapable of working out multiple frameworks for multiple deals with multiple teams, you know, in the eventuality that one or all fall through. The possibility of this, of course, is not demonstrated in you posting contradicting sources claiming that Hawks walked out at the last minute of a deal directly with the Bucks alone and a deal with both the Magic and Bucks. Did Ferry "renege" on a deal at 2:59:00 come back at 2:59:30 before "reneging" again at 2:59:55 allowing the Bucks to scramble to finish a deal at 2:59:59? Doesn't sound plausible at all especially when Hennigan himself said that he didn't even decide on the Bucks deal until 4 minutes before the deadline (I'm sure you'll spin it that Hennigan broke his word also with those multiple other teams he likely had agreed all to).

Lastly, I think we can all agree that's it's disappointing that the Bucks were willing to give up a better package for JJ Redick and Gustavo Ayon than they were for Josh Smith. Two prospects and an expiring as opposed to an expiring, two cap killers and a conditional 1st. I guess that under this fantasy Ferry should have eaten **** rather than "go back" on his word.

[Jamaaliver]

I think we all can agree that to satisfy your fantasy...

I'm not sure I follow.

But nothing brings peace more than saying:

Okay, Macecase.

You win.



Ferry is a man of wisdom and ethics.

[MaceCase]

Oh you don't follow? I'll give you the Cliff's notes:

You made an unsubstantiated claim based on your.....particular interpretation of past events.

You were called out on your evidence not supporting your interpretation.

You decided to provide more evidence further proving that your original claim was unsubstantiated but maintain that your interpretation is true.


If it's not fact then it's fiction which is synonymous with fantasy.

[Jamaaliver]

If it's not fact then it's fiction which is synonymous with fantasy.