Game 18: Magic @ Suns

[RunDogGun]

We don't need to chose between Dragic and Bledsoe. We just need to get everyone on the same page. We need to start Tucker and get back to the success we built last year.

The whole team needs to play less selfishly.

[lilfishi22]

This dual PG system works. it just needs to be tweaked to be consistently effective like we were last season. We were successful because we found go-to plays that was worked. We weren't good because Dragic averaged 20/6, we were good because we had a system that allowed Dragic to 20/6. Do you see the difference there? It isn't a solo effort.

What we need is for Hornacek to find plays which work. Individually, I loved what I see from Keef, Len and Tucker, but we're not running the right lineups for these guys to contribute in winning ways. We're 18 games in and Tucker still isn't starting despite bringing improved 3PT shooting and defensive intensity. Len is playing very well but we're not running ANY plays for him offensively when he can clearly make FT's at a very high rate and has shown the ability to hit the mid-range shot. Keef is a gifted big man passer, why aren't we playing him more in the post and work the triple threat?

This year we have no plays, just iso's. Everyone trying to create hoping to find something out of the chaos.

[RaisingArizona]

We looked bad until the end. No urgency until it was too late from the Suns. Definitely need IT back- we've been lacking energy and points without him.

[Nando88]

What's it going to take for Hornacek to make adjustments to his lineups. Mook and Miles are garbage I'm sorry. This team has no chemistry and no heart . It's like their gameplan every damn night is to get down by 15 points and then when it's too late, rely on SOMEONE, ANYONE to bail them out and single handedly win the game.


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[Revived]

I'm ready to see a starting line up change. Len and PJ should get a chance to start.

People have been saying that for over a month now.

I don't know why Hornacek is being such a pussy about making a lineup change, all coaches do it even guys like Poppvich.

[letsgosuns]

I too do not understand the reluctance of change in the starting lineup. It is definitely not working right now and Hornacek should go back to having Tucker start at small forward. Even though Tucker has his deficiencies, he is the only one on the team besides Bledsoe that brings a defensive effort every night. Marcus Morris is merely a bench player and does not deserve to start. Tucker's energy is needed from the opening tip.

[RaisingArizona]

What's it going to take for Hornacek to make adjustments to his lineups. Mook and Miles are garbage I'm sorry. This team has no chemistry and no heart . It's like their gameplan every damn night is to get down by 15 points and then when it's too late, rely on SOMEONE, ANYONE to bail them out and single handedly win the game.


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There's probably only been about 5 games this year where we haven't been down double digits at some point( somebody research that but I know I'm close as I've watched every game). It's getting a little ridiculous at this point. If the starters aren't cutting it, send a message and bench them.

[nevetsov]

This loss is all Tolliver's fault.

Joking (half joking) aside, our half court offense was just godawful tonight. Too Many times, the ball handler was forced to iso-create because the other 4 guys were just standing still waiting for a pass. No screens or anything. It's like our role players just forgot how to play basketball.

Something needs to light a fire under these guys' asses. I'm a little disappointed too that Horny didn't have the balls to just yank the whole starting group at the half (barring maybe Miles who was playing well) to underscore his point. With the anaemic, stagnant offense, this would have been exactly the right time to give Warren a chance.

I think 90% of the board already gets it but playing a combo guard backcourt of slashers won't work with a classical PF like Markieff. When Keef is on, you need a traditional PG and a traditional SG.

If we're committing to the Dragonblade, we need one of the following SF/PF combos:

Green/ Tucker
Green/ Marcus
Marcus/ Tucker

Or heck, even try Shav at stretch PF.

[RunDogGun]

I'm ready to see a starting line up change. Len and PJ should get a chance to start.

People have been saying that for over a month now.

I don't know why Hornacek is being such a pussy about making a lineup change, all coaches do it even guys like Poppvich.

He is not a "p*ssy", there has to be a reason why he is waiting, but I agree whatever the reason, We need Tucker's defensive presence from the start of the game. I think Marcus and Warren can find a connection as the forward tandem coming off the bench.

Also we need to run more plays, define PnR partners (Bled/Plumlee and Goran/MkMo), and define bench roles (other than come in do your best Jordan impression, even if the impression maybe good from time to time). A bench of IT, Green, Warren, McMo and Len could run Pick and rolls/ pops forever, tons of range, and decent athletically.

[RunDogGun]

This loss is all Tolliver's fault.

Joking (half joking) aside, our half court offense was just godawful tonight. Too Many times, the ball handler was forced to iso-create because the other 4 guys were just standing still waiting for a pass. No screens or anything. It's like our role players just forgot how to play basketball.

Something needs to light a fire under these guys' asses. I'm a little disappointed too that Horny didn't have the balls to just yank the whole starting group at the half (barring maybe Miles who was playing well) to underscore his point. With the anaemic, stagnant offense, this would have been exactly the right time to give Warren a chance.

I think 90% of the board already gets it but playing a combo guard backcourt of slashers won't work with a classical PF like Markieff. When Keef is on, you need a traditional PG and a traditional SG.

If we're committing to the Dragonblade, we need one of the following SF/PF combos:

Green/ Tucker
Green/ Marcus
Marcus/ Tucker

Or heck, even try Shav at stretch PF.

We couldn't yank the starting lineup sans Miles, because we had no active point guard. Both Ennis and Thomas were inactive. Other than that, I agree about the lazy play. I think we need to tighten things up.

[nevetsov]

We couldn't yank the starting lineup sans Miles, because we had no active point guard. Both Ennis and Thomas were inactive. Other than that, I agree about the lazy play. I think we need to tighten things up.

Another silly decision. 2 PGs on the inactive list? What if one of Bled/ Dragon goes down in the first Q?

You take a pg off the active list, you replace him with your other pg as insurance.

Please tell me this FO is not still under the impression Archie can play point.

[RunDogGun]

We couldn't yank the starting lineup sans Miles, because we had no active point guard. Both Ennis and Thomas were inactive. Other than that, I agree about the lazy play. I think we need to tighten things up.

Another silly decision. 2 PGs on the inactive list? What if one of Bled/ Dragon goes down in the first Q?

You take a pg off the active list, you replace him with your other pg as insurance.

Please tell me this FO is not still under the impression Archie can play point.

If they were, than wouldn't he have played more in the other two absence? But I agree, the choice made zero sense. Either way we do need to make some changes/rearranging.

[Revived]

I'm ready to see a starting line up change. Len and PJ should get a chance to start.

People have been saying that for over a month now.

I don't know why Hornacek is being such a pussy about making a lineup change, all coaches do it even guys like Poppvich.

He is not a "p*ssy", there has to be a reason why he is waiting, but I agree whatever the reason, We need Tucker's defensive presence from the start of the game. I think Marcus and Warren can find a connection as the forward tandem coming off the bench.

Also we need to run more plays, define PnR partners (Bled/Plumlee and Goran/MkMo), and define bench roles (other than come in do your best Jordan impression, even if the impression maybe good from time to time). A bench of IT, Green, Warren, McMo and Len could run Pick and rolls/ pops forever, tons of range, and decent athletically.

Agreed on all accounts. Only concern I have is that a Green-IT backcourt may mean that nobody else touches the ball but at this point, we need points anyway we can get em.

[mybloodisorange]

If it seems like the Suns are holding back from rocking the boat rotation-wise maybe it is because they are sitting on their hands waiting for December 15th...for all we know they have a major potential trade lined up just waiting for the floodgates to open. Basically I think we are trying to win without making any major changes because major changes are right around the corner. Don't forget that Green and Goran are also up for new big contracts so trading either now could help; I just don't see the Suns tying up all our cap at 2 positions we are deepest at. Giving Warren Greens minutes would not only spur his development but also help us to manage the cap. As exciting as Green is Warren has shown he can fill it up just as well and he's only a rookie!

It's not that a dual point guard system can't be effective but we have excessive depth at the 1-3 while lacking at the 5 so our play has been erratic which is expected.

Dragic
Thomas
Bledsoe
Ennis
Green
Goodwin
Dragic jr
Bogdan in the future...
Tucker
Warren
Morris
Just too many guards and small forwards plain and simple. Don't forget we plan on continually adding to our team via free agency and our stockpiled draft picks so unless we only plan on drafting and signing nothing but 4s and 5s for the next 4 years a trade will happen.

[Frank Lee]

This is becoming a hard team to watch, except for the 4 players who don't have the ball.

[kennydorglas]

I just hate this selfish basketball, putting guys on a island waiting for a miracle to happen.
Bledsoe is so freakin' inconsistent passing the ball, has serious ballhandling weaknesses... but he can cover it up with awesome defense and an improved shooting.
Dragic is a 2, he really needs to understand that and polish his game in the mold of ginobili. He's a slightly above-average passer at 1, but can become a great passer at the 2. No team will give up ton of money in a guy that only contributes on offense.
And for good, IT is our best passer, i don't have a clear doubt about it in my mind. He knows how to handle PNR, has great feeling for what defense is giving to him and use his hesitations moves to freeze the D# all the time. Dragic was doing it last year, but only with a BIG TIME 3pt threat on his side... IT is doing it with our 2nd unit.

We can make this team work, but everyone has to play for their strengths. Especially tryin' to do a little coaching (hello Hornacek) on Green, making some plays for him coming off screen and NEVER letting him run this offense. Markieff should be our focal point on offense, he's doing an awesome job scoring without any help from his guards.

Start Tucker at 3, put IT/Green/Warren/Mook/Len in the second unit and let them win some games for us. Trade for a big presence inside (Biyombo) and work Tucker at PNP with Markieff standing in the weakside... Tucker will be wide open ALL THE TIME and if he's not, pass to markieff and he'll score even more against an unbalanced defense.

[aIvin adams]

well i checked again this morning and per espn.com the suns did lose this game.

PS - agree w yer post there kennydorgling. good points.

PPS - agree w yer post there Frank Lee. sadness taht our team has become such an aesthetic load. hopefully that changes. or they just start winning. i'd take either.

[RunDogGun]

People have been saying that for over a month now.

I don't know why Hornacek is being such a pussy about making a lineup change, all coaches do it even guys like Poppvich.

He is not a "p*ssy", there has to be a reason why he is waiting, but I agree whatever the reason, We need Tucker's defensive presence from the start of the game. I think Marcus and Warren can find a connection as the forward tandem coming off the bench.

Also we need to run more plays, define PnR partners (Bled/Plumlee and Goran/MkMo), and define bench roles (other than come in do your best Jordan impression, even if the impression maybe good from time to time). A bench of IT, Green, Warren, McMo and Len could run Pick and rolls/ pops forever, tons of range, and decent athletically.

Agreed on all accounts. Only concern I have is that a Green-IT backcourt may mean that nobody else touches the ball but at this point, we need points anyway we can get em.

Thats why i wrote "define bench roles". Also if Green is given a pick and role partner, he will have a play where he can pass if needed, which he has done pretty well at times. IT has already proven to be a good passer, we just need to throw a yellow light when either goes cold.

[sunskerr]

I think we all were afraid that Marcus starting over PJ would stick, and our fears have been realized. Here's to reverting at least to last year's lineup within the next two weeks. Len starting would certainly be a bonus as well. I think it's gotten to a point similar to the 09-10 season (when Lopez needed to start over Frye) - Plumlee's new shininess has worn off and it appears that there is a better option which does more to plug the holes in the ship.

On Marcus: I really don't think he's a small forward. He's a little slow footed when compared to the other wings of the league. If he moves to the bench, PJ starting clears up a little bit of the logjam on the wings because Marcus would back up the Power forward position. Green could split time between the 2 and 3.

[Sunsss]

I mentioned our passing in the first half during the game. I'm watching our assisted field goals in the first half. Here they are:

1) Plumlee post-up jumpshot.
2) Plumlee jumpshot.
3) Inbound pass from Mook to Kieff. One dribble pull-up.
4) Goran kicks it out to Kieff on perimeter, he passes to Bledsoe and he scores on a drive. (not bad)
5) Outlet pass from Goran to Bledsoe. He scores on fastbreak after two dribbles.
6) Goran kicks it out to Kieff on perimeter, he gives it back to Goran and he makes a 3.
7) Len taps the ball for an offensive rebound, ball finds Goran for an open 3. (yes, it is an assist)
8) Green post-up turnaround jumper.
9) Bledsoe drives, Frye helps off Tolliver when he even didn't need to, Bledsoe finds Tolliver for an open 3.

So when you think about drive and kick, PnR, PnP and cuts, we had only 1 assist on those. This team needs to practice halfcourt offense a lot.