RealGM Top 100 List #58

[JordansBulls]

VOTE: Dominique Wilkins

Finished top 2 in MVP voting in a prime year of guys like Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kareem, Moses, Dr J including a scoring title. Was the prime defender on Bird in game 7 vs Bird in 1988 as well.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Based on the theory that when assessing greatness longevity is overrated vs peaks, and regular season is overrated vs playoffs, and team performance (win shares) is overrated vs individual performance I compiled the list below.

Looking for great playoff seasons since 1970 by players 6' 9" and shorter ranked by PER. Minimum 10 games played.

Peak season Rank
1 Lebron James
2 Michael Jordan
3 Chris Paul
4 Charles Barkley
5 Bernard King
6 Kevin Durant
7 Kevin Johnson
8 Dwayne Wade
9 Kobe Bryant
10 Vince Carter
11 Baron Davis
12 Elton Brand
13 Larry Bird
14 Magic Johnson
15 Johny Moore
16 George Gervin
17 Steve Mix
18 Karl Malone
19 Manu Ginobli
20 Adrian Dantley
21 Carmelo Anthony
22 Gus Williams
23 Ray Allen
24 Alex English
25 Chauncey Billups
26 Julius Erving
27 John Stockton
28 Rick Barry
29 Jason Richardson
30 Jason Kidd
31 Reggie Miller
32 Hershey Hawkins
33 Walt Frazier

I know PER has it's problems as a stat.
Win shares has other problems as a stat

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=per

[Quotatious]

Was the prime defender on Bird in game 7 vs Bird in 1988 as well.

Why would it matter? It's not like Wilkins did a particularly good job defensively on Bird...Larry scored 34 on 15/24 shooting. To be fair, Nique scored 47 on 19/33 shooting, but if we're talking about defense, he wasn't impressive, at all.

[Quotatious]

Just wondering - do you think it's too early to look at Chris Bosh, guys? Pau is already in since 53, now Billups is already in, too, and I think that Bosh is extremely comparable to these two guys. He also has decent longevity, at this point, and he's proven capable of adjusting his game to different team situations. I think he may be a good candidate.

[Joao Saraiva]

Just wondering - do you think it's too early to look at Chris Bosh, guys? Pau is already in since 53, now Billups is already in, too, and I think that Bosh is extremely comparable to these two guys. He also has decent longevity, at this point, and he's proven capable of adjusting his game to different team situations. I think he may be a good candidate.

Probably a good candidate yes, but I still think Vince Carter was a better 1st option. I would also like to cast some votes on Dennis Rodmanm Manu Ginobili and Ben Wallace before Chris Bosh, but I can accept him being in.

How about Hornacek? Where do you think he might rank? I admit I might be a bit biased about him but I feel he was a great contributor for at least 10 seasons.

[Quotatious]

Probably a good candidate yes, but I still think Vince Carter was a better 1st option. I would also like to cast some votes on Dennis Rodmanm Manu Ginobili and Ben Wallace before Chris Bosh, but I can accept him being in.

I agree that Carter was a better 1st option than Bosh (generally, I'd prefer my offensive anchor to be a wing, rather than a big), but honestly, I think that Bosh would've been a better #2 option than Vince. I really doubt Carter was a consistent enough playoff performer to lead a team to a title as the #1 guy, and Bosh seems like a perfect #2 option (I remember thinking that he would've been a perfect #2 option for the Heat, with Wade being the #1, before LeBron joined the team - IMO 2011 Wade/Bosh could've been just as good as 2009/2010 Kobe/Pau). In other words, I'd prefer an elite #2 option (Bosh) over a very good #1 option (Carter), but yeah, I can see an excellent case for Vince, based on his longevity (and his peak was IMO slightly higher, too, comparing 2001 VC to 2010 CB).

Rodman and Big Ben were GOAT level in their areas of expertise (defense and rebounding - I mean, more defense for Wallace, and more rebounding for Rodman, but Wallace was a great rebounder, and Rodman a great defender, too), so they certainly have a great case.

Manu's per-minute boxscore production and non-boxscore impact (RAPM) was elite throughout his career (pretty good playoff performer, too), so he's another great candidate, but the minutes played/durability thing may be a major concern, and Manu/Bosh seems like a toss-up to me.

How about Hornacek? Where do you think he might rank? I admit I might be a bit biased about him but I feel he was a great contributor for at least 10 seasons.

I really like what Horny brought to the table, but I doubt he'll make the top 100 (he didn't make it in 2006, 2008 or 2011). He was like a super role player for vast majority of his career. To me, he goes more or less in the same category as Horace Grant. Both guys were pretty great in the 1991-92 season, legit All-Stars, but still, I'd prefer Grant, and I'm not sure if he'll make the top 100 (if he makes it, I would be very surprised if he's any higher than #80).

Well, maybe I'm wrong, considering that some people (RebelWithACause is one, but I believe there were others, as well) mentioned Rasheed Wallace around #40, and Sheed/Grant are pretty close, in my opinion.

So, it basically depends on what kind of players most people will look at - stars with short primes, or "super role players" with long, consistent careers.

[Narigo]

What do you guys think about Jack Sikma? I think he was almost just as good as Parish in his prime

[Quotatious]

What do you guys think about Jack Sikma? I think he was almost just as good as Parish in his prime

Yeah, I agree. Parish was better, but not by a very big margin (Parish's biggest advantage over Sikma seems to be his longevity and the fact that he was a better playoff performer). I can see Sikma being voted in around 65-70.

[penbeast0]

Elvin Hayes -- Quotatious, trex_8063, Clyde Frazier

Vince Carter -- ronnymac2, tsherkin

Sidney Moncrief -- penbeast0

Bob Lanier -- Owly

Dennis Rodman -- Joao Saraiva

Manu Ginobili -- Doctor MJ

Dominique Wilkins -- JordansBulls

[trex_8063]

Leaning towards Hayes right now but considering a few other guys.

Hayes
-Second leading scorer of the 70's (18,922 pts) to Kareem (22,141 pts)
-Good defender who was considered a quality rim protector
-12 seasons of 20/10 production
-Solid & consistent rebounder
-Iron man

Also cool little excerpt about Hayes from a book I have.

Although Elvin played 16 years in the NBA the most important game of his life was played at the University of Houston.

In 1968 Hayes's Houston team (with 17 straight wins) took on UCLA (with 47 straight wins).
With 28 seconds left Hayes sank two foul shots to unlock a 69-69 tie.

Overall Hayes scored 39 points to Kareem's 15. Hayes also out-rebounded Kareem.

For clarity's sake, since we're nearing the deadline, was this a vote? You bolded his name, but it isn't clear to me (nor to penbeast0, either, as he did not count a vote for you).

[RSCD3_]

Vote Vince Carter

A good first option and a great choice for a second option

He was a good shooter and was explosive when he chose to drive ) which admittedly wasn't a lot ) he was average at worst during his prime on defense and put up good scoring impact with underrated playmaking value.

He also has very good portability

In yesteryear's ( 80's and before ) era he would have a big athletic advantage over most 2's and even a good amount of threes.


In today's era he would have a lot of spacing to make more drives and with the rule changes he would rack up more fouls and get more open shots at the rim giving a boost to his efficiency

He'd be a very good player especially as a 1B or 2 option IMO, something we unfortunately didn't see much of







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[trex_8063]

Regarding Bosh, Hornacek, and Sikma.

Feels a bit too early for all of them, particularly Hornacek. I def think he's a historically underrated player, but all the same I have a hard time seeing him any higher than maybe somewhere in the 90's (edit: and honestly I think it would be acceptable if he didn't make the top 100 at all, though I def think he should be in the discussion once past ~90).

Bosh and Sikma don't feel like 50-60ish players to me, though perhaps not too far outside of that. I'm more comfortable with them in the 70+ range, though, tbh. I'm not really inclined to bring them up while guys like Hayes, Lanier, Wilkins, McAdoo, Manu, Carter, Unseld, (and for me: Cousy and Arizin) are still on the table.

And there are several others who I think are at least very debatable over Bosh or Sikma (e.g. Nate Thurmond, Chris Webber, Sid Moncrief, maybe Tony Parker or Carmelo Anthony).

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

What do you guys think about Jack Sikma? I think he was almost just as good as Parish in his prime

Sikma should come before Bosh. Sikkma vs Ben Wallace is a good argument. Sikma scored well outside and inside, set good picks and passed fairly well, was a very good rebounder, and was a good man to man defender against other big men.

Where Ben Wallace is seriously better than Sikma is help defense / shot blocking. I would also prefer Wallace over Sikma if the were forced to guard a smaller man on a switch.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

What do you guys think about Jack Sikma? I think he was almost just as good as Parish in his prime

Yeah, I agree. Parish was better, but not by a very big margin (Parish's biggest advantage over Sikma seems to be his longevity and the fact that he was a better playoff performer). I can see Sikma being voted in around 65-70.

Parish's biggest advantage over Sikma is that Parish was a better help defender / shot blocker.
Parish was a better scorer than Sikma though having Sikma shoot deep mid-range shoots did help Sikma's teams with floor spacing.

Sikma was a better passer.

[penbeast0]

Regarding Bosh, Hornacek, and Sikma.

Feels a bit too early for all of them, particularly Hornacek. I def think he's a historically underrated player, but all the same I have a hard time seeing him any higher than maybe somewhere in the 90's (edit: and honestly I think it would be acceptable if he didn't make the top 100 at all, though I def think he should be in the discussion once past ~90).

Bosh and Sikma don't feel like 50-60ish players to me, though perhaps not too far outside of that. I'm more comfortable with them in the 70+ range, though, tbh. I'm not really inclined to bring them up while guys like Hayes, Lanier, Wilkins, McAdoo, Manu, Carter, Unseld, (and for me: Cousy and Arizin) are still on the table.

And there are several others who I think are at least very debatable over Bosh or Sikma (e.g. Nate Thurmond, Chris Webber, Sid Moncrief, maybe Tony Parker or Carmelo Anthony).

How about guys like Larry Nance and Shawn Marion?

[Joao Saraiva]

My vote goes to Vince Carter.

He was a good scorer both in volume and efficiency, good playmaker for his position, good rebounder. Was a legit superstar, good 1st option, and the one of the most entertaining players I've ever seen.

He can also adapt: played as SF, SG, as the main scorer, as a good role player, with another star Jason Kidd and did it with success, and as a 6th man too.

8 seasons above 20 PER (Hayes got none).
Career ts% at 53.7 - Hayes is blow 50, and he was below 50 most of the years he played.
WS/48 at 14 for Vince Carter and at 11.9 for Hayes.

I get that Hayes actually lifted his game in playoff time, but it's not enough to surpass VC for me. Vince Carter stats seem a bit worse because of his playing time in Dallas, but his numbers with Toronto and New Jersey are pretty solid, and close to the elite players in the NBA.

[SactoKingsFan]

Run-off vote: Vince Carter

Hayes is a worthy candidate, but I've decided to go with Carter in the run-off. VC peaked higher, was a better player during his prime and has good longevity. I'm also more impressed with Carter's versatile skill set.

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[Quotatious]

How about guys like Larry Nance and Shawn Marion?

Can't answer for Trex, but to me, both definitely belong in the top 100. Very good defenders and good scorers with freakish athleticism (Nance was the more efficient scorer, Marion the better rebounder, despite being smaller, and playing a lot of SF, compared to mostly PF for Nance). Even the 70-80 range doesn't seem out of reach for them. I know that I'll definitely support both guys in the project, at some point. Maybe Buck Williams, as well.

[RayBan-Sematra]

VOTE : Hayes
(Reasoning provided in last post)

[Clyde Frazier]

So... worth mentioning: Carter has been pretty bad in elimination games throughout his career.

00: 5-17 FG, 39.1% TS, 15 PTS
01: 6-18, 45.5% TS, 20 PTS
05: 6-22, 42.2% TS, 23 PTS
06: 13-25, 57% TS, 33 PTS
07: 4-11, 41.7% TS, 11 PTS
2010: 6-15, 49.4% TS, 17 PTS
2013: 3-10, 40% TS, 8 PTS
2014: 4-12, 41.7% TS, 10 PTS

In 7 of his 8 career elimination games, he doesn't even come close to average efficiency. I'm not calling the guy a flat out choker or anything. He has a solid overall career resume, and was a dynamic player in his prime. Compared to hayes, though, this is a trend that would concern me. I don't really see a case for him over hayes who played better in the playoffs (although yes, still up and down), and ultimately played a major role in helping his team win a championship.