Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young players

[Revived]

I flip flopped on Alex Len, not being sure on whether he should start or not. I think I've finally joined the side of he should start. And everyone else should too because the case for him is quite obvious:

For one, Miles Plumlee has not been very good. It's not far-fetched to say Len is already better (though you could make a case for Plumlee). Second of all, if Plumlee has been better it certainly isn't by a significant margin. Alex Len, being 21 and the 5th pick in the draft and having somewhat consistently shown the flashes of being a good player this year must have priority over Plumlee (26 years).

What I'm trying to say is that we certainly don't lose much ground (if any at all) by starting Len over Plumlee and the potential rewards are greater. I still don't support Warren starting because I think Tucker is far better (but that's another post).

^this. I don't think Len's a good player right now either, he actually has had games where he's done more bad than good. All that said, still doesn't make sense for him to not get the nod over Plumlee simply due to age and potential.

[NavLDO]

Again I ask, where is this team going to go if you "give the keys" to Goran Dragic and have him as your best player? For him to average 20 and 6, that's what has to be done. He has to be your #1 guy, handling the ball all the time, to put up those stats. If getting Dragic back to that means shipping out Bledsoe, who is younger and a much better defender, than this team is never going to sniff the playoffs. Bledsoe just turned 25 and is already outplaying Dragic this year. He is younger, and already locked up to a long term deal, I certainly don't want to trade him in favor of Dragic. I would much rather see Green, Thomas, or both moved.

I'd rather keep Dragic for the long haul if forced to choose. I recognize EB great talent, but I'll keep Goran and translate Bled into the needed goods. Bledsoe gets the Suns more return.

Don't see a trade anytime soon, but the FO will be patient. Never was about this year anyway. No panic.

Choosing Dragic over Bledsoe will just translate to the Suns being a perennial 9th seed.

Bledsoe is not the "# 1" option on any team, so it's hard to argue that logic. Dragic isn't either, but, the bigger question is what will Dragic net us in a trade vs Bledsoe in a trade. Dragic can be as good as a #2 or #3 option, though, as Bledsoe.

Basically, if we were to pkg EB in a trade, he could be the primary piece for a solid big, where Dragic could not, due to his upcoming FA status, so either we pkg EB, with some other pieces and maybe pick up a talented piece, or we keep both through the season and let Dragic go or keep him, and try to get one in FA. But if we keep both, we are likely stuck with what we have, other than complimentary pieces.

I'd say, if an offer presents itself by packaging EB, we get an up-and-coming star, or a borderline, such as EB is, then we have too take it and keep Dragic. That will not keep us a "perennial 9th seed", so I think that statement is a bit short-sided, IMO. It's never been about which of the two we keep, it's who we can add. If we don't add anyone, we'll likely continue to be that "perennial 9th seed" that you speak of, at least until Len and Warren reach their prime, then I'd argue we'll break through into a 5th-6th seed, maybe higher, problem is, we'll have to be patient, likely until the 2016 season, but by then, Ennis will likely replace one of them. That's assuming that we develop our young players, as the question that this thread posing--when do we, in earnest, develop our youth? If we start now, our lineup for 2016 may very well look like this, and it looks pretty good to me.

EB
Goran
Warren
Kieff
Len

Bottom line, is we need to add talent somehow, and by the end of 2016 draft, we'll have 3 1st Rd draft picks, maybe 4, if Minny gets their act together by next season.

[Revived]

Len FINALLY gettin the start....only about a month late coach!

How long til Warren gets a firm spot in the rotation getting a good 20-25 minutes at least? Probably another 25 games lol.

[SunsFanSSOL]

I'd rather keep Dragic for the long haul if forced to choose. I recognize EB great talent, but I'll keep Goran and translate Bled into the needed goods. Bledsoe gets the Suns more return.

Don't see a trade anytime soon, but the FO will be patient. Never was about this year anyway. No panic.

Choosing Dragic over Bledsoe will just translate to the Suns being a perennial 9th seed.

What would choosing Bledsoe over Dragic translate to?

A complete rebuild.

[NavLDO]

Len FINALLY gettin the start....only about a month late coach!

How long til Warren gets a firm spot in the rotation getting a good 20-25 minutes at least? Probably another 25 games lol.

Maybe not as long, if we continue down this losing streak.

AND BTW, totally off topic, but I just noticed Kieff is shooting 50% (7-14) from 3 in his last 5 games, but is still shooting 29% (18-63) on the year--oof. But if he continues on this streak, that will hopefully go a long way in keeping Tolliver on the bench!

[Revived]

Len FINALLY gettin the start....only about a month late coach!

How long til Warren gets a firm spot in the rotation getting a good 20-25 minutes at least? Probably another 25 games lol.

Maybe not as long, if we continue down this losing streak.

I can only hope. Its a shame that fans who want to see the young ones developed have to root for the Suns to get blown out in order for that to happen

[NavLDO]

Len FINALLY gettin the start....only about a month late coach!

How long til Warren gets a firm spot in the rotation getting a good 20-25 minutes at least? Probably another 25 games lol.

Maybe not as long, if we continue down this losing streak.

I can only hope. Its a shame that fans who want to see the young ones developed have to root for the Suns to get blown out in order for that to happen

But the problem is, if we integrate these players too soon, they may very well get discouraged if they aren't ready. I have no doubt that Len needs to start from here on forward--problem is, he's likely to foul out before he gets 20 minutes in per game, which leaves us with Plumlee and Kieff. But if Ennis and Warren get too much exposure too early, and they perform poorly, they may get "too" down on themselves.

So while I agree they both need more playing time, at this point, they should be eased in, and let their performance dictate how long they are out there, meaning Hornacek needs to pull them out if they look "overwhelmed". But of course, Horny doesn't need some MB fan to tell him how to coach, I know he understands all this already, but what I think most of us desire is to see these guys out there every game, for at least a few minutes, and until recently, that hasn't happened.

[nevetsov]

It's a delicate balance - trade vets to free up minutes for all the young guys and there is no one left to teach them how to play. But if you keep the vets, then there are no minutes left for the young guys (especially if they play the same positions like Thomas/Ennis and Warren/Tolliver).

With the amount of youth that we have to develop, I think the only scenario that works is to have a core 7 or 8 vets in established roles/ positions and have the raw guys (Ennis/ Goodwin/ Warren) each split time to make up the last 20-30 minutes in the rotation. So they might not play every game, but they would get meaningful minutes in matchup friendly/ dependent situations with time to also absorb what the vets are doing.

Ennis could also be getting 4-6mpg to start the 2nd and 4th Quarters, after Goran goes out and Bled comes back in. Wouldn't be enough to sink us. Pretty much the minutes that Ish was getting last year.

E.g.
1st Q 04:00 Bled comes out, Green in = Dragic/ Green backcourt
1st Q 00:00 Dragic comes out, Ennis in = Ennis/ Green backcourt
2nd Q 10:00 Bledsoe comes in, Ennis out = Bledsoe/ Green backcourt
2nd Q 06:00 Dragic comes in, Green (or SF) out = Dragic/ Bledsoe backcourt

Makes it easier on the young guys if they know when they are getting minutes, as opposed to sitting there just waiting for their number to be called.

[NavLDO]

It's a delicate balance - trade vets to free up minutes for all the young guys and there is no one left to teach them how to play. But if you keep the vets, then there are no minutes left for the young guys (especially if they play the same positions like Thomas/Ennis and Warren/Tolliver).

With the amount of youth that we have to develop, I think the only scenario that works is to have a core 7 or 8 vets in established roles/ positions and have the raw guys (Ennis/ Goodwin/ Warren) each split time to make up the last 20-30 minutes in the rotation. So they might not play every game, but they would get meaningful minutes in matchup friendly/ dependent situations with time to also absorb what the vets are doing.

Ennis could also be getting 4-6mpg to start the 2nd and 4th Quarters, after Goran goes out and Bled comes back in. Wouldn't be enough to sink us. Pretty much the minutes that Ish was getting last year.

E.g.
1st Q 04:00 Bled comes out, Green in = Dragic/ Green backcourt
1st Q 00:00 Dragic comes out, Ennis in = Ennis/ Green backcourt
2nd Q 10:00 Bledsoe comes in, Ennis out = Bledsoe/ Green backcourt
2nd Q 06:00 Dragic comes in, Green (or SF) out = Dragic/ Bledsoe backcourt

Makes it easier on the young guys if they know when they are getting minutes, as opposed to sitting there just waiting for their number to be called.

And I'll "And1" you back...yes, if these guys knew that hey, you are getting x number of minutes at x part of the game, UNLESS another situation prevents it, like someone fouling out or an injury, or a lopsided game one way or the other, providing for less or more time, depending on what side we are on in that lopsided scenario. That would likely be best for them and may alleviate some of the pressure/anxiety that I'm sure all the young guys get in their rookie year.

[thamadkant]

Watching Shabazz excel in Minnesota encourages me to try giving the same opportunities to Len, Ennis, Goodwin, Warren.... its all about opportunity.. they build confidence and it helps them become get better quicker.

[Zelaznyrules]

Watching Shabazz excel in Minnesota encourages me to try giving the same opportunities to Len, Ennis, Goodwin, Warren.... its all about opportunity.. they build confidence and it helps them become get better quicker.

Goodwin was given a lot more minutes his rookie year than Shabazz was (even Len logged more time). But Shabazz used the downtime to retool his body and his game and subsequently earned more minutes this year. Goodwin is still the same out-of-control, rim-clanging athlete that he was last year. I think Ennis is being held out more because his body isn't ready for the NBA than anything else. He's got a very young man's frame but as he adds a little strength, I believe we'll see a lot more of him. I'm not sure what's holding Warren back but I'd be willing to bet there's a legitimate reason.

[kennydorglas]

Watching Shabazz excel in Minnesota encourages me to try giving the same opportunities to Len, Ennis, Goodwin, Warren.... its all about opportunity.. they build confidence and it helps them become get better quicker.

This is pretty obvious... nobody can develop his game without playing a real game.
We arent playoff caliber anymore, so we need to see what we got in our youngsters.

[RunDogGun]

Watching Shabazz excel in Minnesota encourages me to try giving the same opportunities to Len, Ennis, Goodwin, Warren.... its all about opportunity.. they build confidence and it helps them become get better quicker.

This is pretty obvious... nobody can develop his game without playing a real game.
We arent playoff caliber anymore, so we need to see what we got in our youngsters.

Total horse crap!!! You completely undermine every practice and coaches for that matter with that ignorant statement. Amare spent a whole season save three games working on his outside shot, which changed his game dramatically.

This thread is the most ignorant piece of poop, with people chiming in with unsupported nonsense.

[Zelaznyrules]

Watching Shabazz excel in Minnesota encourages me to try giving the same opportunities to Len, Ennis, Goodwin, Warren.... its all about opportunity.. they build confidence and it helps them become get better quicker.

This is pretty obvious... nobody can develop his game without playing a real game.
We arent playoff caliber anymore, so we need to see what we got in our youngsters.

Why do people keep spewing this nonsense? It isn't true. There a hundred things a player needs to learn, maybe 10 of those require actual game time (yes, I made up those numbers). Why is practice the most important thing needed to develop at every single level except the NBA? You eventually need game time but with the lack of fundamentals so many of these young players enter the league with, significant game time is often the last thing they need. And as I pointed out earlier, Shabazz didn't get those minutes in his rookie year because he hadn't developed enough. Now he's done some of the things he needed to do away from the bright lights and he is getting the minutes.

[kennydorglas]

Watching Shabazz excel in Minnesota encourages me to try giving the same opportunities to Len, Ennis, Goodwin, Warren.... its all about opportunity.. they build confidence and it helps them become get better quicker.

This is pretty obvious... nobody can develop his game without playing a real game.
We arent playoff caliber anymore, so we need to see what we got in our youngsters.

Why do people keep spewing this nonsense? It isn't true. There a hundred things a player needs to learn, maybe 10 of those require actual game time (yes, I made up those numbers). Why is practice the most important thing needed to develop at every single level except the NBA? You eventually need game time but with the lack of fundamentals so many of these young players enter the league with, significant game time is often the last thing they need. And as I pointed out earlier, Shabazz didn't get those minutes in his rookie year because he hadn't developed enough. Now he's done some of the things he needed to do away from the bright lights and he is getting the minutes.

Outside of him losing weight, it's still the same player that came from UCLA.
But now they're forced to play him because they're rebuilding.
Last year he had some awesome games coming off the bench. Just like Goodwin had some.
The biggest difference is that Shabazz can learn faster in the court and Goodwin will be a gatorade player for the next few years.

That's how u improve your youngsters. Practice is fantastic for them, but they need to put it together in a real game. Without that, it's really meaningless... until he's traded for another team and start showing what he got rsrs

[RunDogGun]

No, that is not how you develop youngsters. Have you ever coached before?

Game time is for displaying what you learned in practice. If it appears that a youngster has not learned what you taught in practice, then they haven't earned minutes to play a game. It's pretty simple.

How does this thread get dumber and dumber? It's like watching politics here in the US, where a party continues to say completely false things, but feel if they say the same false things over and over, somehow that makes it true.

[thamadkant]

In practice we don't really see who the rookies or youth play against.
Len must be getting a bad deal if he only has Plumlee to learn from.

I can see Green, Thomas, Bledsoe and Dragic getting intense work out against each other.

Tucker and Warren had maybe a couple of good bouts but Tucker would be primarily practicing against the Morris and Green.


Confidence is developed faster in-game, if some people don't get that I don't know what else to say.
It's like in real life, under real circumstances, pressure etc. The confidence levels you gain is substantially greater than simulation, low intensity, low pressure, training-like environment.


With that said, Spurs giving minutes to their rookie Anderson this year is proof that you need to expose young players to the in-game situations in order to be useful sooner than later.

[Zelaznyrules]

In practice we don't really see who the rookies or youth play against.
Len must be getting a bad deal if he only has Plumlee to learn from.

I can see Green, Thomas, Bledsoe and Dragic getting intense work out against each other.

Tucker and Warren had maybe a couple of good bouts but Tucker would be primarily practicing against the Morris and Green.


Confidence is developed faster in-game, if some people don't get that I don't know what else to say.
It's like in real life, under real circumstances, pressure etc. The confidence levels you gain is substantially greater than simulation, low intensity, low pressure, training-like environment.


With that said, Spurs giving minutes to their rookie Anderson this year is proof that you need to expose young players to the in-game situations in order to be useful sooner than later.

Do we not know the difference between proof and evidence? It's proof of nothing except that Pop has played him 232 minutes this season. The season isn't over but we played Goodwin 590 minutes last year, did that turn him into a superstar? Every player is different. Kyle is a smart player, Archie really isn't. Ennis is a smart player but he looks like a kid out there playing next to men. You can develop your confidence in games but it's also an easy way to have it destroyed. I can show you plenty of examples through the years where young players picked up serious minutes their first few seasons and then went on to have fine careers outside of the NBA.

[Revived]

This is pretty obvious... nobody can develop his game without playing a real game.
We arent playoff caliber anymore, so we need to see what we got in our youngsters.

Why do people keep spewing this nonsense? It isn't true. There a hundred things a player needs to learn, maybe 10 of those require actual game time (yes, I made up those numbers). Why is practice the most important thing needed to develop at every single level except the NBA? You eventually need game time but with the lack of fundamentals so many of these young players enter the league with, significant game time is often the last thing they need. And as I pointed out earlier, Shabazz didn't get those minutes in his rookie year because he hadn't developed enough. Now he's done some of the things he needed to do away from the bright lights and he is getting the minutes.

Outside of him losing weight, it's still the same player that came from UCLA.
But now they're forced to play him because they're rebuilding.
Last year he had some awesome games coming off the bench. Just like Goodwin had some.
The biggest difference is that Shabazz can learn faster in the court and Goodwin will be a gatorade player for the next few years.

That's how u improve your youngsters. Practice is fantastic for them, but they need to put it together in a real game. Without that, it's really meaningless... until he's traded for another team and start showing what he got rsrs

Exactly. We have idiotic morons on the team like Gerald Green & Marcus Morris getting playing time over Warren when there really isn't any need for it.

TJ Warren was seen as one of the most NBA ready prospects in the draft and he certainly didn't do anything to dispute that in summer league. What's the worst that can happen with Warren playing? Us losing more games? Oh no, something that's already happening...

[Zelaznyrules]

Why do people keep spewing this nonsense? It isn't true. There a hundred things a player needs to learn, maybe 10 of those require actual game time (yes, I made up those numbers). Why is practice the most important thing needed to develop at every single level except the NBA? You eventually need game time but with the lack of fundamentals so many of these young players enter the league with, significant game time is often the last thing they need. And as I pointed out earlier, Shabazz didn't get those minutes in his rookie year because he hadn't developed enough. Now he's done some of the things he needed to do away from the bright lights and he is getting the minutes.

Outside of him losing weight, it's still the same player that came from UCLA.
But now they're forced to play him because they're rebuilding.
Last year he had some awesome games coming off the bench. Just like Goodwin had some.
The biggest difference is that Shabazz can learn faster in the court and Goodwin will be a gatorade player for the next few years.

That's how u improve your youngsters. Practice is fantastic for them, but they need to put it together in a real game. Without that, it's really meaningless... until he's traded for another team and start showing what he got rsrs

Exactly. We have idiotic morons on the team like Gerald Green & Marcus Morris getting playing time over Warren when there really isn't any need for it.

TJ Warren was seen as one of the most NBA ready prospects in the draft and he certainly didn't do anything to dispute that in summer league. What's the worst that can happen with Warren playing? Us losing more games? Oh no, something that's already happening...

I don't see the reason that Warren isn't playing either. But I don't see him daily like the coaches do. And the worst that can happen is a lot more than just losing a few more games. You can lose the team playing a player that isn't ready and you can destroy that player's confidence by doing that too. Again, players and situations aren't always the same.