Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[Brenice]

Was this supposed to be in the green font?

Ernie passed on LeBron, Durant, Anthony Davis, Rose, Wade, CP3, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, ...the list of franchise players Ernie passed over gets longer each draft. Russel, Bird, Magic, Wilt....damn you Ernie

If you reach any harder, you might pull every muscle in your flimsy body!

That's the best you could do? You are failing worse than Ernie. What a waste.

[Brenice]

Was this supposed to be in the green font?

Ernie passed on LeBron, Durant, Anthony Davis, Rose, Wade, CP3, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, ...the list of franchise players Ernie passed over gets longer each draft. Russel, Bird, Magic, Wilt....damn you Ernie

Well, Brenice, inasmuch as you brought the subject up -- how many of Ernie's drafts have been successful?

Lets see.. in the last 6 drafts, with a #5 pick, a #1 pick, a #17 pick, a #23 pick, a #6 pick, a #18 pick, a #34 pick, a # 3 pick, a #31 pick, a #46 pick, another #3 pick, a #38 pick and a #46 pick -- how many good players did Ernie acquire?

Three: John Wall (w/ a #1 pick -- the hardest pick in the draft to screw up, and which he got by ping pong ball luck), Bradley Beal (good pick -- excellent work Ernie!) and Otto Porter (again a gift of ping pong ball luck -- but we hope he'll be good).

Quite a haul, huh? And as you point out, we didn't really pass on any good players: just Stephen Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons, Jae Crowder, Kyle O'Quinn, etc. etc. etc.

I see 1 franchise player, Curry. But crying over spilt milk all you want. I guess you'd rather be Philly.

[nate33]

I have a lot of complaints about Ernie. Over the years, I think he has been, on balance, a bad GM. I still think the Miller/Foye trade and the Vesely pick were unforgivable disasters that cost this team a lot of years in rebuilding.

That said, it's nearly impossible not to be impressed with EG's performance this offseason. He absolutely hit it out of the park. He improved the on-the-court talent base of the team while keeping enough long term flexibility to keep the Durant dream alive. Pierce, Butler and Humphries have been great (and cheap). Keeping Miller looks like the right move. And I'm seeing enough promise in Porter that I think he'll eventually take on the Ariza role.

Even if the Durant dream doesn't come to pass, all we'll need is a quality stretch-four free agent signing and we should still have a reliable playoff team for years to come with Wall, Beal, Porter, Stretch Four, Humphries and Gortat.

[payitforward]

Time for another round of rehashing that will get ignored but AGAIN ....

Actually, Hands, I'm pretty sure you get ignored *a lot* more than dat2 does. You see, although he's sometimes wrong (unlike you), dat actually knows something about basketball (unlike you).

They also did things so they were in a position to luck out and get that #1 pick (i.e. and take Wall).

Ok, this I got to hear more about! This is the kind of clever management that only a genius like Ernie could manage and only a true insider savant such as yourself could grasp and explain.

Do tell: what were the "things" they did that put them in a position to "luck out" w/ the ping pong balls and take Wall (wow... good thing they knew he'd come out after 1 year, huh? All those "things" you're going to tell us about would have been wasted otherwise, huh?)

And for the record, they have done TONS to develop Wall though coaching and the players they put around him to help him develop.

Absolutely! Eric Maynor, Jan Vesely, Singleton, Mack, Al Harrington, Tomas Satoransky.... I mean if they hadn't acquired the rights to those guys...

If not for what they have done, we could be seeing a very different John Wall.... Ted, EG, Randy, they all helped to get Wall to where he is today.

Wow, now it's really turning out to have been lucky he came out when he did. I mean, imagine what a mess it might have been if somehow he'd wound up in the incompetent hands of some other GM not Grunfeld, huh? If he hadn't gotten to play for the Wizards -- guy'd be a bust; it's so obvious.... but WAIT...

Hands, did you just write "Randy"? Did I read that? Aww come on, fellah. You hate Randy Wittman. You think he is one of the worst coaches in the history of the league. You've written that many many times. Or... tell the truth: are there 2 "Hands" on this board? The one who repeatedly said he could create better rotations than Randy Wittman -- you do remember that, don't you? -- and the one who credits Randy with a significant role in John Wall's development?

Like I say, Hands, you are a stitch! A constant source of humor and amusement as you maneuver yourself to the front of whatever parade happens along.

[payitforward]

Grunfeld gets no credit for picking Wall with the #1 pick. Just like no one gives credit to Jim Paxson for drafting Lebron #1.

OMG, how can you say that? Except for Ernie Grunfeld, Jim Paxson is the best GM in the history of the league!

Ask Hands: he'll explain that Paxson (even from retirement) was able to put people around LeBron that made him what he his. I mean w/o Jim Paxson, we might be seeing an entirely different LeBron!

[payitforward]

Ernie passed on LeBron, Durant, Anthony Davis, Rose, Wade, CP3, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, ...the list of franchise players Ernie passed over gets longer each draft. Russel, Bird, Magic, Wilt....damn you Ernie

Well, Brenice, inasmuch as you brought the subject up -- how many of Ernie's drafts have been successful?

Lets see.. in the last 6 drafts, with a #5 pick, a #1 pick, a #17 pick, a #23 pick, a #6 pick, a #18 pick, a #34 pick, a # 3 pick, a #31 pick, a #46 pick, another #3 pick, a #38 pick and a #46 pick -- how many good players did Ernie acquire?

Three: John Wall (w/ a #1 pick -- the hardest pick in the draft to screw up, and which he got by ping pong ball luck), Bradley Beal (good pick -- excellent work Ernie!) and Otto Porter (again a gift of ping pong ball luck -- but we hope he'll be good).

Quite a haul, huh? And as you point out, we didn't really pass on any good players: just Stephen Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons, Jae Crowder, Kyle O'Quinn, etc. etc. etc.

I see 1 franchise player, Curry. But crying over spilt milk all you want. I guess you'd rather be Philly.

Nah, I just count my blessings you aren't making any decisions for the Wizards, Brenice. Spilling milk is one thing, but I see you standing over the bowl of soup that is the draft and player decisions, and taking a leak right into it!

[payitforward]

No, I said Wall took a bunch of journeyman and made them a top 10-15 team. Grunfeld gets no credit for picking Wall with the #1 pick. Just like no one gives credit to Jim Paxson for drafting Lebron #1.

So, in your world, EG gets a ton of blame (as he should) for drafting Ves, Singleton, etc., for signing Maynor, and for trading a top pick for Foye and Miller. But he gets no credit whatsoever for trading for and signing Gortat, bringing in Pierce on a good contract instead of signing Ariza to a bigger, longer contract, and picking up a journeyman (Butler) who has been a major contributor.

I might also mention that EG traded Maynor for "The Professor" who is still schooling opponents and he got Hump and Blair on good deals, all of which has helped to make the Zards one of the deepest teams in the NBA.

But yet, in your view, no props whatsoever for EG. The way you see it all the credit for the Zards success goes to the presence of John Wall. Do you realize how silly that sounds?

Finally! Someone writes something sensible.

Ernie gets credit for bringing in Pierce, for picking Humphries as the right guy, and he gets the credit you should get for being lucky (since GMs also get dinged when they're unlucky) with Butler (keep in mind he was the 15th guy signed: you really think anyone imagined he might play at a level he never sniffed in any of his previous 12 seasons?).

As to Gortat, I liked him before you had any idea who he was. But that was a *terrible* trade for a guy Phoenix didn't want to keep -- not to mention taking on the salary for every dead body on their roster! Hell, we paid more for Gortat last year than we are paying for him this year! And, if I remember right, you weren't altogether in love w/ him getting $12m a year for 5 years, were you?

Point being that Gortat was expiring. What we bought for all we gave was 1 season.

Ernie didn't trade Maynor for Miller, Zards. Do you pay attention to the details? Or to anything in the rest of the league? Denver was *dying* to get rid of Miller. And we gave up a draft pick plus I forget what else for Miller. Oh yeah... a guy we had picked #6 in the draft 18 months earlier! Yikes.

Still, we could have gotten a bum not Miller; fair to point that out. Just goes to show that when you pin the tail on the donkey, occasionally you get it in the right place. Overall, Ernie's pinned that tail all over the map!

Fun being 17-6 tho, isn't it?

[TGW]

I have a lot of complaints about Ernie. Over the years, I think he has been, on balance, a bad GM. I still think the Miller/Foye trade and the Vesely pick were unforgivable disasters that cost this team a lot of years in rebuilding.

That said, it's nearly impossible not to be impressed with EG's performance this offseason. He absolutely hit it out of the park. He improved the on-the-court talent base of the team while keeping enough long term flexibility to keep the Durant dream alive. Pierce, Butler and Humphries have been great (and cheap). Keeping Miller looks like the right move. And I'm seeing enough promise in Porter that I think he'll eventually take on the Ariza role.

Even if the Durant dream doesn't come to pass, all we'll need is a quality stretch-four free agent signing and we should still have a reliable playoff team for years to come with Wall, Beal, Porter, Stretch Four, Humphries and Gortat.

Nate—EG is a master at cleaning up his own messes. That's about all I can give him credit for.

[Kanyewest]

Grunfailed's "great" managing career.

Despite being on the job for 16 years, the mastermind only has 1 division title on his resume. Pathetic....there are GMs above him on that list who've been doing the exact same job for 1/4th of the time and have accomplished more.



Before this season, here's how BSPN rated the mastermind:

Complex magazine:

http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/03/r ... e-grunfeld

22. Ernie Grunfeld

Random thought- didn't a lot of people say that the Bucks/76ers Conference Finals was rigged back in 2001? If nothing else, an Allen/Cassell/Robinson trio should have beaten the 76ers.

[DCZards]

As to Gortat, I liked him before you had any idea who he was. But that was a *terrible* trade for a guy Phoenix didn't want to keep -- not to mention taking on the salary for every dead body on their roster! Hell, we paid more for Gortat last year than we are paying for him this year! And, if I remember right, you weren't altogether in love w/ him getting $12m a year for 5 years, were you?

Actually, pif, you are wrong twice in this paragraph. I knew very well who Gortat was long before he signed with Phoenix and was then later traded to the Zards. You can't watch as much NBA as I've watched over the past several decades and not know who Gortat is. And, no, I did not express any problem with the money that Marcin signed for. You must have me confused with another poster.

But since, unlike you, I'm not into belittling people for their mistakes, I'll leave it at that.

[doclinkin]

To me re-hashing the past is less interesting than contemplating the question implied earlier: are we headed towards Finals contention? Can GMEG get us there?

I like our current squad, though we lack one go-to scorer to carry us over the top. Our eggs are all in the Kevin Durant basket there, though I'm concerned about what Plan B may be if we don't succeed in our recruitment bid. One concern is that GMEG might work for a sign and trade, swapping Beal plus picks or assets for KD, as in the past he has shown a propensity to occasionally bid against himself once he has decided on a course. (And I'm concerned there as well, in a 'be careful what you wish for' mode, since we'd bank on KD and invest large $ in him, which might prove a danger if he is injured etc. but whatever, you'd hope for the best).

Ernie does best when his job is on the line, he manages to pull out a surprise or two when pressed to do so. Our front office has not displayed an ability to draft better value-for-pick, so success in the regular season drops us late in the draft where there are fewer sure things. So our avenues for improvement are more limited. Like the rest of the league we will have a boatload of cash when the new TV deal kicks in, but we have to demonstrate that we're a contender before recruiting significant talents --- if they have a choice. (Free agents, not trades).

Right now our assets are: Wall, Beal, Gortat on a good deal. The rest is either short term or unproven. We do have a significant wealth of cap space in a few years, but that is an asset that can become a danger if not spent well.

So, in that respect, I wish we had a better track record in drafting good young talent, and in negotiating contracts with good value for dollar. And all of that is what leaves the doubters and skeptics less hopeful that this current success will be sustainable or prove even better in future years.

[montestewart]

As to Gortat, I liked him before you had any idea who he was. But that was a *terrible* trade for a guy Phoenix didn't want to keep -- not to mention taking on the salary for every dead body on their roster! Hell, we paid more for Gortat last year than we are paying for him this year! And, if I remember right, you weren't altogether in love w/ him getting $12m a year for 5 years, were you?

Actually, pif, you are wrong twice in this paragraph. I knew very well who Gortat was long before he signed with Phoenix and was then later traded to the Zards. You can't watch as much NBA as I've watched over the past several decades and not know who Gortat is. And, no, I did not express any problem with the money that Marcin signed for. You must have me confused with another poster.

But since, unlike you, I'm not into belittling people for their mistakes, I'll leave it at that.

Seriously PIF, Gortat played in the Finals in his second year, and the Magic tried hard to hang onto the best backup C in the league. I think most people knew who Gortat was. We do follow basketball here.

[TGW]

To me re-hashing the past is less interesting than contemplating the question implied earlier: are we headed towards Finals contention? Can GMEG get us there?

I like our current squad, though we lack one go-to scorer to carry us over the top. Our eggs are all in the Kevin Durant basket there, though I'm concerned about what Plan B may be if we don't succeed in our recruitment bid. One concern is that GMEG might work for a sign and trade, swapping Beal plus picks or assets for KD, as in the past he has shown a propensity to occasionally bid against himself once he has decided on a course. (And I'm concerned there as well, in a 'be careful what you wish for' mode, since we'd bank on KD and invest large $ in him, which might prove a danger if he is injured etc. but whatever, you'd hope for the best).

Thank you Doc. We can go through the numerous moves Grunfeld has made where he's blindly attached picks to deals when they weren't necessary. Squandering assets when you don't have to...I've said it in harsher ways several times, but you said it nicely here.

Right now our assets are: Wall, Beal, Gortat on a good deal. The rest is either short term or unproven.

Again, right on the money (except for Gortat on a good deal--I think it's a bad deal). When you look at the roster from top the bottom, those are the rock solids you can depend on 3 years from now. Everyone else is fodder.

The reason I have a hard time giving Grunfail credit is because to obtain that fodder, he used multiple draft picks and huge amounts of capspace. He ultimately used a lottery pick to obtain Miller. He squandered 18 million dollars worth of cap tied up in two aging, injury prone vets (Nene and Webster). We've already gone through the scenarios ad naseum, but I have a hard time getting excited for Andre Miller when we could have had Leonard, Farried, or Thompson on this team instead.

So, in that respect, I wish we had a better track record in drafting good young talent, and in negotiating contracts with good value for dollar. And all of that is what leaves the doubters and skeptics less hopeful that this current success will be sustainable or prove even better in future years.

WYSIWYG--unless Durant comes here, this team has pretty much reached its peak, unless Wall becomes a top 5 player (which is very possible...he has the physical ability to do it), and/or Beal becomes an All-Star as well. Even then, they don't have what it takes inside to win anything significant.

[closg00]

This driver got us to our destination (competitive basketball), but the road he took us on to get here was unnecessarily long and tortuous. I thank him for getting us here in one piece, but I'd never hire him to drive us again.

http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2014/08/1 ... 95#slide_9

[fishercob]

This driver got us to our destination (competitive basketball), but the road he took us on to get here was unnecessarily long and tortuous. I thank him for getting us here in one piece, but I'd never hire him to drive us again.

http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2014/08/1 ... 95#slide_9

Can't disagree with any of this, closg00. And if I had to go one another long trip, I'd be really nervous about having him drive me again. But if he did, I''d hope for the best and allow for the possibility that it works out.

To me re-hashing the past is less interesting than contemplating the question implied earlier: are we headed towards Finals contention? Can GMEG get us there?

No doubt.

I like our current squad, though we lack one go-to scorer to carry us over the top. Our eggs are all in the Kevin Durant basket there, though I'm concerned about what Plan B may be if we don't succeed in our recruitment bid. One concern is that GMEG might work for a sign and trade, swapping Beal plus picks or assets for KD, as in the past he has shown a propensity to occasionally bid against himself once he has decided on a course. (And I'm concerned there as well, in a 'be careful what you wish for' mode, since we'd bank on KD and invest large $ in him, which might prove a danger if he is injured etc. but whatever, you'd hope for the best).

We all fear the unknown. Mavs fans were pretty worried about how they'd rebound from missing out on both Dwight Howard and Deron Williams. They've returned to contender status other ways. There will be other ways. First, I think you're going to see some 2015 FA's sign one year deals to cash in on the 2016 cap expansion. Secondly, maybe you land some combo of guys -- Horford, Ryan Anderson, Jon Leuer, George Hill, Mozgov, WIlson Chandler, Gallinari -- who complement the troika of Wall/Beal/Otto that is stepping into its collective prime.

Right now our assets are: Wall, Beal, Gortat on a good deal. The rest is either short term or unproven. We do have a significant wealth of cap space in a few years, but that is an asset that can become a danger if not spent well.

So, in that respect, I wish we had a better track record in drafting good young talent, and in negotiating contracts with good value for dollar. And all of that is what leaves the doubters and skeptics less hopeful that this current success will be sustainable or prove even better in future years.

I agree that Gortat is an asset given how the cap is set to escalate. So that's a recent contract with good value for dollar. So is Hump, who is producing like an average NBA starter and making below that. Ernie has not demonstrated the eye for cheap talent that we're seeing in Houston, Dallas, Philly, Toronto. But I don't think that's a reason to abandon all hope.

I've used the poker analogy several times with Ernie. Sometimes, some buffoon plays his hand all wrong and wins on the river. I'd much rather be that guy than the bitter pro who played "by the book" and lost. Sheet, look at the Cavs. They drove Lebron away because they couldn't field a team around him, then they wasted high lotto picks on on Waiters, Thompson and Bennett. Only to again luck their way into the pick that gave Lebron the Love that he so desperately craved. You think their fans care who the GM is?

[doclinkin]

We all fear the unknown. Mavs fans were pretty worried about how they'd rebound from missing out on both Dwight Howard and Deron Williams. They've returned to contender status other ways.

Eh, the skeptic camp fears the known. That is we're talking about Grunfled, where you're citing the Mavs-- an organization that spends profligately on advanced stat warriors and scouting, an early adopter to using advanced metrics to drive their coaching systems.

I've used the poker analogy several times with Ernie. Sometimes, some buffoon plays his hand all wrong and wins on the river. I'd much rather be that guy than the bitter pro who played "by the book" and lost.

This is the Wizards. If your plan is to hope for luck, I dunno man... Me I'd rather have better drafting and top notch contract ninjas than to try to wish ourselves into contention. I liked Ernie in New York, and early on here, and occasionally he pulls a Caron trade-- like I said when his back is against a corner-- but I do not trust him with a draft pick. And that is the best cheapest way to add long-term talent, for all of your draft picks to outperform their draft slot.

Going forward. We have John Wall, we lucked out then. Once in 30 years. Okay and we landed Gilbert before he exploded, that was lucky. I'll count them both as successes. But I'm solidly on the skeptic side for the long term future, even while I'm enjoying the glee of following a great team. I forget who posted it in a game thread, but they said something to the effect of "I am not prepared to be this excited for this team". As a long time Wiz fan it made me grin. But hey, its the future, even the Clippers and Warriors are good nowadays.

[payitforward]

As to Gortat, I liked him before you had any idea who he was. But that was a *terrible* trade for a guy Phoenix didn't want to keep -- not to mention taking on the salary for every dead body on their roster! Hell, we paid more for Gortat last year than we are paying for him this year! And, if I remember right, you weren't altogether in love w/ him getting $12m a year for 5 years, were you?

Actually, pif, you are wrong twice in this paragraph. I knew very well who Gortat was long before he signed with Phoenix and was then later traded to the Zards. You can't watch as much NBA as I've watched over the past several decades and not know who Gortat is. And, no, I did not express any problem with the money that Marcin signed for. You must have me confused with another poster.

But since, unlike you, I'm not into belittling people for their mistakes, I'll leave it at that.

If you thought I was "belittling" you, Zards, my bad; I apologize. Not my intention, and I'll make an effort not to give you that impression again, ok?

If you liked Gortat when he was with Orlando, I was wrong -- you did know who he was. I was disappointed when Phoenix signed him as a FA; I wanted him here. Can you go that far? I.e. was he someone you targeted for us in your mind as far back as that?

Finally, if you thought we did the right thing to sign Marcin for $60m/5 years, good! -- and, once again, I was wrong. Twice in one paragraph, just as you say!

Hey, I can be wrong -- fully capable of it. I'm the guy who wanted to sign Landry Fields, remember!

[payitforward]

As to Gortat, I liked him before you had any idea who he was. But that was a *terrible* trade for a guy Phoenix didn't want to keep -- not to mention taking on the salary for every dead body on their roster! Hell, we paid more for Gortat last year than we are paying for him this year! And, if I remember right, you weren't altogether in love w/ him getting $12m a year for 5 years, were you?

Actually, pif, you are wrong twice in this paragraph. I knew very well who Gortat was long before he signed with Phoenix and was then later traded to the Zards. You can't watch as much NBA as I've watched over the past several decades and not know who Gortat is. And, no, I did not express any problem with the money that Marcin signed for. You must have me confused with another poster.

But since, unlike you, I'm not into belittling people for their mistakes, I'll leave it at that.

Seriously PIF, Gortat played in the Finals in his second year, and the Magic tried hard to hang onto the best backup C in the league. I think most people knew who Gortat was. We do follow basketball here.

Yes, that was altogether my bad, as I cottoned to in my previous post. The rhetoric gets heated from time to time, and I wrote something stupid.

[fishercob]

We all fear the unknown. Mavs fans were pretty worried about how they'd rebound from missing out on both Dwight Howard and Deron Williams. They've returned to contender status other ways.

Eh, the skeptic camp fears the known. That is we're talking about Grunfled, where you're citing the Mavs-- an organization that spends profligately on advanced stat warriors and scouting, an early adopter to using advanced metrics to drive their coaching systems.

I've used the poker analogy several times with Ernie. Sometimes, some buffoon plays his hand all wrong and wins on the river. I'd much rather be that guy than the bitter pro who played "by the book" and lost.

This is the Wizards. If your plan is to hope for luck, I dunno man... Me I'd rather have better drafting and top notch contract ninjas than to try to wish ourselves into contention. I liked Ernie in New York, and early on here, and occasionally he pulls a Caron trade-- like I said when his back is against a corner-- but I do not trust him with a draft pick. And that is the best cheapest way to add long-term talent, for all of your draft picks to outperform their draft slot.

Going forward. We have John Wall, we lucked out then. Once in 30 years. Okay and we landed Gilbert before he exploded, that was lucky. I'll count them both as successes. But I'm solidly on the skeptic side for the long term future, even while I'm enjoying the glee of following a great team. I forget who posted it in a game thread, but they said something to the effect of "I am not prepared to be this excited for this team". As a long time Wiz fan it made me grin. But hey, its the future, even the Clippers and Warriors are good nowadays.

You're not going to get any argument from me on any of this, doc. I'd be more confident if someone else that I trusted more was steering the ship. But that doesn't mean that things cannot work out and that doesn't mean that EG isn't eligible for credit for the things he has done well.

If our worst case scenario moving forward is Wall/Beal/Otto/Gortat and max cap space, I think the floor is pretty high.

[LyricalRico]

If our worst case scenario moving forward is Wall/Beal/Otto/Gortat and max cap space, I think the floor is pretty high.