The Russell Westbrook Thread (2014/15)

[SideshowBob]

When was the last time we had two players over 30 PER? 2009 with Wade and LeBron? Davis and Westbrook might sustain this and join some elite company.

Why stop at 2? Lebron's been at 31.8 in his last 10 and 38-39 in his last 3. With 60 games to go, I think he can get there.

Oh I didn't even realize his PER was that good in recent games. Where do you calculate that? Bbref game logs don't tell PER.

In that case, 3 players (maybe 4 with Durant) with 30+ PER would be nuts.

I've got a spreadsheet for it, but for that I just approximated using game score per 48 adjusted for pace.

Also RealGM's player pages also give some splits, but the numbers don't always line up with BBR. They have Lebron at 30.2 in his last 10.

[Greatness]

Officially on the GOATbrook bandwagon. All aboard!

[PaulieWal]

Officially on the GOATbrook bandwagon. All aboard!

Welcome, strong username to post content ratio. We are witnessing Greatness and you are finally all in. To get on the bandwagon the only requirement is that you always refer to him as GOATbrook.

[NinjaSheppard]

The thing that I find scary is that I don't see any real outliers in his stats

He is taking 40+ percent of his shots at the rim which is more than usual but not a completely unsustainable number and he is only making 63.5 percent of those shots. That isn't a Curry like 70+ which screamed unsustainable. He could make more even.

Fromm 3-16 feet his percentages are pretty bad actually. His long 2s are going in at 46 percent which is great but again not like Paul George's 50+ to start last year which screamed regression. His three point shot is also not going in at an insane rate.

He is turning it over like you would expect also. Really seems like he could be the best guy in the league this year. Took me a while to accept it because he really stank up the joint against the Pelicans this year but he is amazing.

[richboy]

Westbrook is Flash 2.0 right now. His game is 09 DWade all over again. Wade use to play so fast that his teammates didn't even know how to handle it. Westbrook always played at a speed that nobody else was playing. The game has slowed for him though. He still plays fast but he understands what the defense is trying to do. He understands the game more and how to utilize how physical ability. Right now he prime Dwade all over again.

Relax, don't overrate him. Alpha Russ isn't on Wade's level yet, he's getting there though. This is the first season that I'd put him firmly ahead of MVP Rose though. You're right that the game is becoming slow for him, he's playing with much more control and much smarter even though he's playing fast. He's much more willing pass than before and doesn't take nearly as much of the terrible shots that he took in the past. I just wish Rose never tore that ACL, would've been beautiful to see these two duke it out

Rose's MVP season is one of the most overrated things on these boards. Not that it wasn't a great season. It just doesn't measure out as being so special. He was behind Westbrook in PER that year. That was with Westbrook having a lower usage at the time. Rose got the credit for a team that won because of great defense and rebounding.

I will say this. Years ago in many Westbrook vs Rose threads I said Russell was 90% what Rose was. I would take Russell in a heartbeat over Derrick because Westbrook was doing it as a completely raw player. Honestly I think Rose has looked like a finish product for years.

I have not seen anything from Rose even before the injuries to suggest he had prime Dwade like upside. Matter of fact I don't think Rose athleticism measures to Westbrook. Not because it couldn't. In testing it should. Only because the only time I see Rose look athletic is when he driving and trying to dunk. Westbrook uses his athleticism all over the floor.

Westbrook looks like Wade in his prime because his athleticism tries flies of the screen like Flash use too. He has only did it for a handful of games. We will see where he can take this. Derrick Rose to me has always looked like a Tony Parker with hops. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't think if Rose had stayed healthy he be filling up stats like Westbrook. Even now I don't put Rose's peak as that much better than Tony Parker.

[bigboi]

Westbrook is Flash 2.0 right now. His game is 09 DWade all over again. Wade use to play so fast that his teammates didn't even know how to handle it. Westbrook always played at a speed that nobody else was playing. The game has slowed for him though. He still plays fast but he understands what the defense is trying to do. He understands the game more and how to utilize how physical ability. Right now he prime Dwade all over again.

Relax, don't overrate him. Alpha Russ isn't on Wade's level yet, he's getting there though. This is the first season that I'd put him firmly ahead of MVP Rose though. You're right that the game is becoming slow for him, he's playing with much more control and much smarter even though he's playing fast. He's much more willing pass than before and doesn't take nearly as much of the terrible shots that he took in the past. I just wish Rose never tore that ACL, would've been beautiful to see these two duke it out

Rose's MVP season is one of the most overrated things on these boards. Not that it wasn't a great season. It just doesn't measure out as being so special. He was behind Westbrook in PER that year. That was with Westbrook having a lower usage at the time. Rose got the credit for a team that won because of great defense and rebounding.

I will say this. Years ago in many Westbrook vs Rose threads I said Russell was 90% what Rose was. I would take Russell in a heartbeat over Derrick because Westbrook was doing it as a completely raw player. Honestly I think Rose has looked like a finish product for years.

I have not seen anything from Rose even before the injuries to suggest he had prime Dwade like upside. Matter of fact I don't think Rose athleticism measures to Westbrook. Not because it couldn't. In testing it should. Only because the only time I see Rose look athletic is when he driving and trying to dunk. Westbrook uses his athleticism all over the floor.

Westbrook looks like Wade in his prime because his athleticism tries flies of the screen like Flash use too. He has only did it for a handful of games. We will see where he can take this. Derrick Rose to me has always looked like a Tony Parker with hops. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't think if Rose had stayed healthy he be filling up stats like Westbrook. Even now I don't put Rose's peak as that much better than Tony Parker.

No offense, some of your post is kind of ridiculous. The thing that's always made Westbrook worse than Rose was his lack of control and BBIQ. Rose got credit for the team because he was basically the whole team's offense. I don't see how Rose could be a finished product when he could still become more efficient from 3. Rose was developing just as fast as Westbrook, I dont understand how you just think that he would peak when he was improving every year.

Come on man, Westbrook's athletic but I can't really say that he's more athletic than Rose. He uses his athleticism for defense and rebounds much more than Rose but Rose's quickness and agility are amazing. I would say that Rose was slightly above Alpha Russ in athleticism

What? you really think Parker's peak is really close to Rose's, come on man. Rose in Spurs is basically a perfect match. You called him a Tony Parker with hops- that'd be a monster on San Antonio. Actually a more athletic Tony Parker is potentially one of the best scorers in the league. Also the whole DWade thing, Rose is different player than both Westbrook and Wade. Hin early Rose was more like a mini Lebron if anything due to how much he did for his offense while Westbrook was a much more stiffer player.

Rose and Westbrook's scoring has been similar in the past, but what separated Rose from Westbrook is his control and willingness to past. Right now, Westbrook is scoring like the best player in the league and is under control, that's why I'd put him over Rose. But don't mistake that and make it seem like Rose couldn't be a similar caliber player and a potential top 3 player that Westbrook is.

[dfins891]

Looking at the breakdown of his shooting numbers, here are his shooting %s this season as opposed to the last 3

___________________Last 3 years:___________________This Season:
0 - 3 feet:_____________61.2% ________________________63.5%
3 - 10 feet: ___________31.4%_________________________33.3%
10 - 24 feet: __________41.1%_________________________41.5%
3 point: _______________32%__________________________35.5%

And here is the breakdown of how often he is shooting from where (% of FGAs by distance)

0 - 3 feet:_____________32% __________________________44%
3 - 10 feet: ___________13%____________________________7%
10 - 24 feet: __________35%___________________________33%
3 point:_______________20%___________________________16%

So he is basically shooting right at his normal %s from everywhere, just taking many more shots at the rim(which explains his career high FTr) and less shots from 3-10 feet where he is very inefficient. Really makes it look like what he is doing is semi-sustainable.

[DontH8TheBrody]

How many more games does he need to start qualifying for all of the statistical leads?

[lethalizer]

I agree that he's almost definitely going to cool off at some point. With that said just looking at the numbers none of it seems too unsustainable. He's shooting right in line with his career numbers from the mid range and at the rim. He's shooting about 3% better from 3 but taking much less so it could just be he's not taking so many bad ones.

The difference for him this season is that he is taking a much higher percent of his shots at the rim than he ever has before, which also accounts for his career high FT rate, and is taking a career low % of his shots from 3-10 feet range where he has always shot very poorly(lack of a floater).

Great post. Just want to point out that "regression to the mean" is in no way a rule. It's entirely possible he's just reached a new threshold of play. Don't think he's going to maintain 35 PER, but 30+ is doable, if unlikely.

Thanks guys. You convinced me a bit there.

The thing I'm worried about though is that Russ seems to have stretches like this where he loves to attack the hoop and cut down on his long-range shots, but after a while he settles back down.

Luke Petkac on DailyThunder wrote:

"Westbrook’s had a stretch like this before. In February of 2012-13, he abandoned his jumper in favor of more drives to the rim, putting up 28-7-4 per 36 minutes on 60 percent true shooting. In March, he abandoned all that, and his true shooting fell to a more typical 53 percent."

So it will take more time for me to believe Russ will sustain his level of production, and will continue to make the right selections.

I don't mind the percentages but if come February, he still favors his *sweet spots* rather than settling for long 2's and pull-up 3 pointers, I'd count this season a big win for Russ as a whole.

[richboy]

Relax, don't overrate him. Alpha Russ isn't on Wade's level yet, he's getting there though. This is the first season that I'd put him firmly ahead of MVP Rose though. You're right that the game is becoming slow for him, he's playing with much more control and much smarter even though he's playing fast. He's much more willing pass than before and doesn't take nearly as much of the terrible shots that he took in the past. I just wish Rose never tore that ACL, would've been beautiful to see these two duke it out

Rose's MVP season is one of the most overrated things on these boards. Not that it wasn't a great season. It just doesn't measure out as being so special. He was behind Westbrook in PER that year. That was with Westbrook having a lower usage at the time. Rose got the credit for a team that won because of great defense and rebounding.

I will say this. Years ago in many Westbrook vs Rose threads I said Russell was 90% what Rose was. I would take Russell in a heartbeat over Derrick because Westbrook was doing it as a completely raw player. Honestly I think Rose has looked like a finish product for years.

I have not seen anything from Rose even before the injuries to suggest he had prime Dwade like upside. Matter of fact I don't think Rose athleticism measures to Westbrook. Not because it couldn't. In testing it should. Only because the only time I see Rose look athletic is when he driving and trying to dunk. Westbrook uses his athleticism all over the floor.

Westbrook looks like Wade in his prime because his athleticism tries flies of the screen like Flash use too. He has only did it for a handful of games. We will see where he can take this. Derrick Rose to me has always looked like a Tony Parker with hops. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't think if Rose had stayed healthy he be filling up stats like Westbrook. Even now I don't put Rose's peak as that much better than Tony Parker.

No offense, some of your post is kind of ridiculous. The thing that's always made Westbrook worse than Rose was his lack of control and BBIQ. Rose got credit for the team because he was basically the whole team's offense. I don't see how Rose could be a finished product when he could still become more efficient from 3. Rose was developing just as fast as Westbrook, I dont understand how you just think that he would peak when he was improving every year.

Come on man, Westbrook's athletic but I can't really say that he's more athletic than Rose. He uses his athleticism for defense and rebounds much more than Rose but Rose's quickness and agility are amazing. I would say that Rose was slightly above Alpha Russ in athleticism

What? you really think Parker's peak is really close to Rose's, come on man. Rose in Spurs is basically a perfect match. You called him a Tony Parker with hops- that'd be a monster on San Antonio. Actually a more athletic Tony Parker is potentially one of the best scorers in the league. Also the whole DWade thing, Rose is different player than both Westbrook and Wade. Hin early Rose was more like a mini Lebron if anything due to how much he did for his offense while Westbrook was a much more stiffer player.

Rose and Westbrook's scoring has been similar in the past, but what separated Rose from Westbrook is his control and willingness to past. Right now, Westbrook is scoring like the best player in the league and is under control, that's why I'd put him over Rose. But don't mistake that and make it seem like Rose couldn't be a similar caliber player and a potential top 3 player that Westbrook is.

No offense but I been on this board and watching Westbrook since day 1. Don't talk to me like I didn't see him play. I'm fully aware Westbrook didn't have Rose IQ for the game or control when I made the comment. I said in that previous post that Westbrook was raw. Yet he still was just as good as Rose. Rose was MVP and Westbrook had a higher PER on less usage and on a higher pace team. Not because of what Westbrook didn't do. Which is the obvious hater mantra for years. That every Westbrook mistake was magnified times 10. It the fact that even then Westbrook big play making ability was insane. His ability to change games was nuts. Even then if he made 5 bad decisions in the game people didn't realize he was doing 15 things that no player in the league was doing.

Saying someone can improve from 3 is irrelevant. Your 90% of what your going to be if all your improvement is a better jump shot. That just an improved jump shot. Many players improve there jump shot. Unless Drose suddenly had a Steph Curry jump shot it wouldn't fundamentally change him as a player. Westbrook was a raw physical beast that had just started playing point guard. He was doing things that you said when he learns the aspects of the game he going to be ridiculous.

Your just saying the same thing I just said. Yes if I measured Rose and Westbrook athletically they be close. Rose may even be better. Yet I could care less Rose is great at jumping if he doesn't use it in games. Outside of driving to the rim I rarely see Rose use his athleticism. Not on defense or the glass. He does not flash all over the gym making plays. That is what Westbrook is. I think your kidding yourself if you think if Rose hadn't been injured he be doing the same thing. He wasn't doing it when he was healthy then. Westbrook right now has a per 36 of 7 rebounds per game and 2 steals per game. Healthy Rose was sub 4 rebounds and 1 or less steals.

You make one of my biggest pet peeves on this site. Using value to a team as a testament to there ability.Rose being an important part of the Chicago offense was fine. They still were not an elite offense. When it came to winning it was the defense and rebounding that made them elite. Which is the reason why when Rose was injured they still could win a lot of games.

I don't get any Rose being comparable to Lebron. Lebron is a stat machine in many categories. D Rose is mediocre or below average in everything except scoring. It isn't like he is doing it on some crazy Lebron efficiency. To me he has always been a better jumping Tony Parker. You don't really say how that would make the Spurs even better or one of the best scorers in the league. Especially since I doubt Rose would get 32% usage on the Spurs. You don't get points for jumping high. Tony Parker has been as good as any point guard in the league at getting in the paint and finishing. He has done it all while at times sharing ball handling duties with Manu. If Tony played on any other team he be putting up bigger numbers. I don't say that to knock Rose. Tony Parker is an elite PG and been a MVP candidate. I'm just stating that skill for skill they are almost identical. Except Rose has a 40 inch vertical that lets him dunk on a Steve Nash and Parker it will end in a lay up. It still 2 points at the end of the day.

I think you mean willingness to pass. Despite the fact that Westbrook has had higher passer rating than Rose in the past.

[cyclix]

Westbrook is nowhere as skilled as a prime Wade. You guys are getting too ahead of yourselves. Prime Wade was also 10x the defender.

Westbrook relies too much on athleticism. He will never be like Wade.

Thats not to say I think he isn't a TOP 5 player right now. He gives max effort every time and is taking smarter shots now. His game still looks like a herky-jerky movement to me and nowhere near as fluid as Wades, but his above the rim game and blazing speed makes him fun to watch.

[MMyhre]

Westbrook is nowhere as skilled as a prime Wade. You guys are getting too ahead of yourselves. Prime Wade was also 10x the defender.

Westbrook relies too much on athleticism. He will never be like Wade.

Thats not to say I think he isn't a TOP 5 player right now. He gives max effort every time and is taking smarter shots now. His game still looks like a herky-jerky movement to me and nowhere near as fluid as Wades, but his above the rim game and blazing speed makes him fun to watch.

I agree in some parts, 10x the defender is way too much. Wade has a much better wingspan and is thus better at disrupting on defense, but Westbrook can play some mean man to man defense. Westbrook is also a better 3 pt and ft shooter than Wade was, that's part of skill. I don't think he takes contact as well as Wade, but honestly who does in the history of the game as guards/sforwards? Jordan/LeBron maybe and not even sure. Westbrook has yet to hit his peak, it might just come these next 2 seasons, so it's too early to judge. Great start to this year though.

[cyclix]

Westbrook is nowhere as skilled as a prime Wade. You guys are getting too ahead of yourselves. Prime Wade was also 10x the defender.

Westbrook relies too much on athleticism. He will never be like Wade.

Thats not to say I think he isn't a TOP 5 player right now. He gives max effort every time and is taking smarter shots now. His game still looks like a herky-jerky movement to me and nowhere near as fluid as Wades, but his above the rim game and blazing speed makes him fun to watch.

I agree in some parts, 10x the defender is way too much. Wade has a much better wingspan and is thus better at disrupting on defense, but Westbrook can play some mean man to man defense. Westbrook is also a better 3 pt and ft shooter than Wade was, that's part of skill. I don't think he takes contact as well as Wade, but honestly who does in the history of the game as guards/sforwards? Jordan/LeBron maybe and not even sure. Westbrook has yet to hit his peak, it might just come these next 2 seasons, so it's too early to judge. Great start to this year though.

Wade has a better, a quicker first step and better slasher and finisher at the rim, has better handles and better at keeping a live dribble while creating is own shot, better array of offensive moves, and just a better half-court player overall, and is just better equipped tools in general to thrive more in a half court setting

Westbrook is more of a glorified Steve Francis type that is insanely athletic, and thrives off of being athletic. Wade and Westbrook play nothing alike. To be fair though, I would say Westbrook has improved his decision-making and overall IQ, but lets not getting carried away to comparing him to Wade, especially when he's only played 11 or 12 games thus far.

[thizznation]

keep in mind westbrook has been playing teams that are complete dogs since he has come back

[PaulieWal]

I was watching the Knicks-Bulls game but turned it off to do something more productive. Can't wait for GSW vs. OKC. Sucks that Bogut is out but should be a good one. It better not be a blowout either way.

[76ers 2020]

I was watching the Knicks-Bulls game but turned it off to do something more productive. Can't wait for GSW vs. OKC. Sucks that Bogut is out but should be a good one. It better not be a blowout either way.

Yeah I am looking forward to this more than any regular season game in a while. Bogut out takes it down a notch. Feels like it is going to be a statement game from somebody. If I am this excited for regular season games the playoffs are going to be insane this year.

[KD35Brah]

Westbrook and KD are murdering GS...

[PaulieWal]

Westbrook and KD are murdering GS...

That might be an understatement. Credit to GSW for hanging in there though.

Edit: This GSW team is pretty damn good too.

[KD35Brah]

wtf is Westbrook doing....?

[NinjaSheppard]

Ugh heroball Westbrook appearance

he does this way too often against other star PGs