Mike Budenholzer: is he the greatest?

[Hawk Eye]

Tonights 127-98 victory over Cleveland was ON THE ROAD was fabulous. The overall shooting was superb at such crazy percentages. Mack was HOT. Had a career high and 6/6 from the 3. Horford was bullying defenders in the post and mixing it with his sweet mid range jumpers. He's looking back to form recently. Anyways, the game got me thinking...

Is Mike Budenholzer the greatest coach in the history of the Hawks franchise?

He has established a Spurs-like offense. Cough cough * champion-like offense.

The ball movement is absolutely beautiful.

He never gets raddled on the sidelines.

The man is for real.

DISCUSS!

[simon24]

Tonights 127-98 victory over Cleveland was ON THE ROAD was fabulous. The overall shooting was superb at such crazy percentages. Mack was HOT. Had a career high and 6/6 from the 3. Horford was bullying defenders in the post and mixing it with his sweet mid range jumpers. He's looking back to form recently. Anyways, the game got me thinking...

Is Mike Budenholzer the greatest coach in the history of the Hawks franchise?

He has established a Spurs-like offense. Cough cough * champion-like offense.

The ball movement is absolutely beautiful.

He never gets raddled on the sidelines.

The man is for real.

DISCUSS!

I'm not being a hater or anything but Bud hadn't done anything that Woody and Drew hadn't done, getting big regular season wins and make it to the playoffs.

Bud is a young coach, got a lot of potential. The best Hawks coach is Lenny Wilkens. 1994 season, #1 seed.

Now if Bud leads the Hawks to ECF, NBA Finals, now we may have to reconsider who's the best.

[Jamaaliver]

I think Bud has the potential to be one of the best in franchise history. But coaching greatness is determined by accomplishment...over time. He still has a ways to go. His lifetime record as coach is still just 56-51. He will get there, but it takes time.

Through his first 107 games as Hawks Head Coach, Larry Drew had a combined record of 60-47. An appearance in the 2nd round of the playoffs including the first time the Hawks had beaten a higher seeded playoff opponent in decades!!

Through his first 107 games as Hawks Coach, Lenny Wilkens had a combined record of 67-40. Including winning the only division title the team has seen in decades. He won NBA Coach of the Year and led our team to the 2nd round of the playoffs as the #1 seed. (It's worth mentioning that his team flamed out in the playoffs to the lower seeded Pacers and he instigated the single worst move in Atlanta Hawks history...trading away Dominique for Danny Manning. )

Bud is definitely up there in terms of ability. But his 56-51 record lags behind a couple of other Hawks HCs.

[ATL Boy]

Agreed that we have to give it some time before declaring him the best, but he definitely could be, a big step would be leading us to our first conference finals since moving to Atlanta.

[hawkschop1]

Personally, I see coach bud as the next bobby cox of atlanta. hopefully john hart can be danny ferry too!

"Atlanta is underrated and undervalued" -Avery Johnson on espn

[King Ken]

Talent wise, he is the best we have ever had. Overall, Lenny was better. Czar was better. Woody did more. Talent wise, he's one of the best I've seen. He's Coach Pop level. He could be the best.

[PandaKidd]

1 victory does not a great coach make.

or something.


Its 1 game, the Cavs played as bad as we did in round 1. Get out of the first round and we can talk legacy

[azuresou1]

Easily. You guys are watching the same games as me, right?

Using Bud's record from last year against him is just bad analysis when he was missing his best player for most of the season and our team in general got slammed with injuries.

[Hawk Eye]

I think for being hit as hard as we were by injuries and coach Bud STILL getting us to the playoffs has to account towards his greatness as well. Especially taking the #1 seeded pacers to game 7. However I do agree that we need to wait and see where we end up in the playoffs this year. But if bud gets us to the ECF I just might have to call some of you guys on the board and go celebrate in the streets of ATL with yall just saying

[theatlfan]

1st, I agree that it's too early to anoint Coach Bud as anything more than an intriguing coach to go forward with, but I also think we can start the discussion about what he needs to do to get put up with the coaching greats for the organization. He has more than "1 win" - he had the team on track to compete for a 3-4 seed before losing every C on the roster (well, except for the guy pushing 40) then had to keep a playoff seed while the team was limping to the finish line. Impressive (albeit not necessarily the best for the long term health of the franchise, but that shouldn't be the coach's concern), but then making a splash in the playoffs by making a good run at the 1 seed was truly inspired. This was a really impressive feat that Coach Bud isn't getting enough credit for ITT. We haven't discussed his ability to make players considerably better (outside the possible exception of Horford, everyone on the team has gotten significantly better in Coach Bud's tenure... significantly.)

My time line only goes back as far as Fratello which really only puts the discussion with two other coaches - Fratello and Wilkens. (I just don't think that either Drew or Woodson got more than the sum of the parts out of the team. Both were above average for us, but I can't call either "good". I do think Woodson would rank higher on my list than Drew though since Woodson's team typically got better every year while Drew was more of a caretaker.) Neither Wilkens nor Fratello is an insurmountable obstacle for Coach Bud though. Wilkens was great in the regular season, but his 36% W% in the playoffs is a huge knock - as others have noted, this includes years where he really should have done better. Fratello never broke the glass ceiling in the playoffs either, but considering the hype that the NBA was putting into the LAL / BOS matchups, I'm not sure that would have been allowed. He had the advantage of being able to have Wilkins in his prime years though who is still undoubtedly THE superstar of the ATL years but Fratello should also be given the credit for helping develop him as well as utilizing him to be a superstar.

So, I think that if Coach Bud just lasts a few more years and hangs around where he's at (55-60 Ws; 2nd round outs in the playoffs) then he'd probably place behind Fratello in my mind. If he breaks through and lands an ECF or 2, then he'd surpass Fratello and become the best coach through the ATL years in my mind. Make a Finals - so forth win one - and there wouldn't be a question.

[PandaKidd]

Mike Woodson (53-29) doe and 2nd round playoffs
Larry Drew 2nd round of playoffs doe

Now, Bud has been here only 1.2 years, and has had SIGNIFICANTLY less talent than Drew and Woodson had. This is his year IMO. This is his roster, the east has never been weaker, we will see.

I think after 1 win vs a Bulls team missing Noah and 1 win vs the Cavaliers (considering they HAMMERED US IN THE SAME FASHION a month ago), lets not get ahead of ourselves.

This team is intriguing , last night was the first time I said to myself "this is a "SPURS" effort/team". I saw flashes of it before, last night was the whole package, defense, offense, unselfishness, etc.

Lets see if they can sustain it.

[PandaKidd]

That and Fratello had 4 50 win seasons, so, theres that.

[simon24]

Mike Woodson (53-29) doe and 2nd round playoffs
Larry Drew 2nd round of playoffs doe

Now, Bud has been here only 1.2 years, and has had SIGNIFICANTLY less talent than Drew and Woodson had. This is his year IMO. This is his roster, the east has never been weaker, we will see.

I think after 1 win vs a Bulls team missing Noah and 1 win vs the Cavaliers (considering they HAMMERED US IN THE SAME FASHION a month ago), lets not get ahead of ourselves.

This team is intriguing , last night was the first time I said to myself "this is a "SPURS" effort/team". I saw flashes of it before, last night was the whole package, defense, offense, unselfishness, etc.

Lets see if they can sustain it.

Less talent? Hawks were cheap during the time Drew and Woodson coached the team, you've had players out of their prime coming off the bench like McGrady, Dampier, Jason Collins.

Teague > Bibby/Hinrich/Teague
Korver < Joe
Carroll > Marvin
Millsap > Josh
Horford = Horford

Plus the Hawks bench got studs that could start on other teams like Schoeder.

[atlantabbq99]

He needs to win five or six playoff series first before he is the "greatest"..........

[D21]

Very simple : we are now sure that Bud has the potential to be the greatest, but he still has work to do before it becomes reality

[Jamaaliver]

Less talent? Hawks were cheap during the time Drew and Woodson coached the team, you've had players out of their prime coming off the bench like McGrady, Dampier, Jason Collins.

Teague > Bibby/Hinrich/Teague
Korver < Joe
Carroll > Marvin
Millsap > Josh
Horford = Horford

Plus the Hawks bench got studs that could start on other teams like Schoeder.

Are the Hawks NOT cheap now? With a lower payroll? With us STILL bringing out their prime players off the bench like Brand, Thabo, Pero...

I'd say that 2010-2011 Hawks were quite possibly the most talented Hawks team since Dominqiue left. IMO, Jamal Crawford and Joe Johnson at that point in their careers were more talented than any single player we have today.

[azuresou1]

Watching this team is like watching Floyd Money Mayweather pick apart some stiff with precision jabs and straights for 48 minutes. Guys come in off the bench and without missing a step keep the ball moving and hitting big shot after big shot while playing coherent team defense. And even when we have lulls, we continue playing composed basketball, never collapsing in the face of adversity like was oh so familiar just a few years ago. We take care of business.

On top of this look at how many guys have developed into legitimate rotation guys under Bud.

Teague went from extremely inconsistent and hesitant to a borderline All-Star
Millsap and DeMarre have gone from hardworking grinders into do-it all guys
Korver has gone from a generic good shooter into one of the top shooters of all time
Mack has gone from a guy who could have very easily drifted out of the league into an extremely solid backup PG
Dennis, Mike Scott, and Mike Muscala are all rotational guys who show great skill

Putting Woody or Drew in the same conversation as Coach Bud is a complete joke. This is easily one of the best coached basketball teams I've ever watched, this team is poised to make the Finals if we can get a hot run from any of our top 8-9 guys.

[simon24]

Less talent? Hawks were cheap during the time Drew and Woodson coached the team, you've had players out of their prime coming off the bench like McGrady, Dampier, Jason Collins.

Teague > Bibby/Hinrich/Teague
Korver < Joe
Carroll > Marvin
Millsap > Josh
Horford = Horford

Plus the Hawks bench got studs that could start on other teams like Schoeder.

Are the Hawks NOT cheap now? With a lower payroll? With us STILL bringing out their prime players off the bench like Brand, Thabo, Pero...

I'd say that 2010-2011 Hawks were quite possibly the most talented Hawks team since Dominqiue left. IMO, Jamal Crawford and Joe Johnson at that point in their careers were more talented than any single player we have today.

They're still cheap but they're smarter with their money. For example, you got an All-Star PF in Millsap playing for 9 mil, meanwhile, Josh is getting paid $14 mil in DET. Brand is a legit backup big, probably could start on some other teams, his post defense is underrated and he still got a jump shot. Thabo is still adjusting. Pero, it's only his 2nd year in the league.

2010-11 Hawks is probably the most successful Hawks team since Dominque left but this team now is truly a balanced team. Crawford is one dimensional, if his shot isn't hitting, he's useless. Joe was a talented player but he choked in the playoffs, meanwhile, you got multiple players that can fulfill multiple roles on any given night.

[tonegully757]

If you put Woody and Drew in the same category as Bud, put the drinks down.

First off all thanks goes to Danny Ferry. He hired the coach and built this team.

I rank our coaches at Fratello, Wilkens, and Bud.

The thing is this. Coach Bud is doing more with less. We dont have ONE so called superstar. We have an actually team and they are running a real offense. Not that dribble, dribble, pass to ISO Joe or Josh for three. Players are being put in areas of their strength to succeed. Woody nor Drew did that. Coach Bud established that he is the coach/boss and doesnt hesitate to take players out the game if they are not performing.
Bud follows and pays attention. Example Mack was hot, and let him stay in the game, that is something Woody and Drew would never do.

The Hawks are now developing talent. Tavares overseas. Moose and Payne D league getting minutes. Woody and Drew stunted Teague's growth by 2 dam years sitting him on the bench.

The Hawks are playing great defense also keeping teams under 100.

When was the last time the Hawks were Top 10 -15in offense, defense and assists? In the same season.

This team will continue to get better, i expect FA to want to come and play for Bud. Look at this team playing offense, helping each other out on defense and sharing the ball, and melo said no one would want to come to ATL to play...i beg to differ with him about that considering his boys have won 5 games lol.

[Phunkabilly]

Less talent? Hawks were cheap during the time Drew and Woodson coached the team, you've had players out of their prime coming off the bench like McGrady, Dampier, Jason Collins.

Teague > Bibby/Hinrich/Teague
Korver < Joe
Carroll > Marvin
Millsap > Josh
Horford = Horford

Plus the Hawks bench got studs that could start on other teams like Schoeder.

Panda was talking about talent, not overall game. I think Marvin and Josh were WAY more talented than Carroll and Millsap. To me, draft position is a pretty good metric for quantifying talent. Williams was #2 overall pick and Josh was a mid-1st rd. pick (many of whom thought was a steal at that slot), while Carroll and Millsap were late 1st and 2nd rd. picks, respectively. That at least helps to justify the statement that they were more talented players than Carroll and Millsap. With that being said, I believe commitment, work ethic, and coachability have made Carroll and Millsap much better players over time than Marvin and Josh. But I definitely wouldn't say they were more talented.