Bumgarner or Kershaw?

[dockingsched]

i am confused

1378.1 reg season + 51 post season innings = 1429.1 total innings

380 reg season + 29 post season earned runs = 409 runs

409 runs in 1428.1 innings = 2.57 era

[history]

Depends on what you care about. If you're into marketing, kershaw is a household name. If you want the better pitcher, it's obviously bumgarner. Kershaw is one of the worst playoff pitchers ever. And that's no exaggeration.

[Quake Griffin]

Good thing Kershaw is only 26 years old and going into his age 27 season.

Wouldn't want to completely declare him a failure after 8 post season starts:

4 of which have been good.
1 which came when he was 21 and didn't have his slider (his best pitch that's not a fastball).
2 bad starts against the Cardinals.
and 1 meh start that was actually a quality start that "looks horrible" because of the beating he was taking in the media from Game 1 and a Matt Adams home run.


reminds me of Greg Maddux stinking it up in the postseason early in his career.
yea, almost nobody remembers that anymore.

[Neddy]

Depends on what you care about. If you're into marketing, kershaw is a household name. If you want the better pitcher, it's obviously bumgarner. Kershaw is one of the worst playoff pitchers ever. And that's no exaggeration.

you must think Greg Maddux is one of the worst pitchers of all time.

[history]

Depends on what you care about. If you're into marketing, kershaw is a household name. If you want the better pitcher, it's obviously bumgarner. Kershaw is one of the worst playoff pitchers ever. And that's no exaggeration.

you must think Greg Maddux is one of the worst pitchers of all time.

Let's talk when Kershaw has anywhere near the accolades Maddux had. Kershaw might end up far closer in comparison to Johan Santana than Mr. 355.

[El Turco]

Good thing Kershaw is only 26 years old and going into his age 27 season.

Wouldn't want to completely declare him a failure after 8 post season starts:

4 of which have been good.
1 which came when he was 21 and didn't have his slider (his best pitch that's not a fastball).
2 bad starts against the Cardinals.
and 1 meh start that was actually a quality start that "looks horrible" because of the beating he was taking in the media from Game 1 and a Matt Adams home run.


reminds me of Greg Maddux stinking it up in the postseason early in his career.
yea, almost nobody remembers that anymore.

yea good thing he is in a prime age to blow up his arm. i bet he ends up pitching for rancho cucamonga before he strings together post season wins.

bumgarner could leave the sport tomorrow to grow tomatoes in carolinas and he would still be the goat

[Quake Griffin]

Good thing Kershaw is only 26 years old and going into his age 27 season.

Wouldn't want to completely declare him a failure after 8 post season starts:

4 of which have been good.
1 which came when he was 21 and didn't have his slider (his best pitch that's not a fastball).
2 bad starts against the Cardinals.
and 1 meh start that was actually a quality start that "looks horrible" because of the beating he was taking in the media from Game 1 and a Matt Adams home run.


reminds me of Greg Maddux stinking it up in the postseason early in his career.
yea, almost nobody remembers that anymore.

yea good thing he is in a prime age to blow up his arm. i bet he ends up pitching for rancho cucamonga before he strings together post season wins.

bumgarner could leave the sport tomorrow to grow tomatoes in carolinas and he would still be the goat

You always were the classy one out of you three.

bet on injury? lame.

#CABI

[Neddy]

Depends on what you care about. If you're into marketing, kershaw is a household name. If you want the better pitcher, it's obviously bumgarner. Kershaw is one of the worst playoff pitchers ever. And that's no exaggeration.

you must think Greg Maddux is one of the worst pitchers of all time.

Let's talk when Kershaw has anywhere near the accolades Maddux had. Kershaw might end up far closer in comparison to Johan Santana than Mr. 355.

hmmm 27 year old with 3 Cy Young can't be compared to Maddux who won his 4th and final Cy Young at 29? I think the accolades are on par and Clay has a lead in terms of accomplishments at comparative age.

look, I love Greg Maddux so much i named my son Maddux. but to say Clay can't be compared to him at this time of his career, is beyond ridiculous.

[history]

you must think Greg Maddux is one of the worst pitchers of all time.

Let's talk when Kershaw has anywhere near the accolades Maddux had. Kershaw might end up far closer in comparison to Johan Santana than Mr. 355.

hmmm 27 year old with 3 Cy Young can't be compared to Maddux who won his 4th and final Cy Young at 29? I think the accolades are on par and Clay has a lead in terms of accomplishments at comparative age.

look, I love Greg Maddux so much i named my son Maddux. but to say Clay can't be compared to him at this time of his career, is beyond ridiculous.

Let's step back for a minute, because you're either intentionally or unintentionally twisting the argument. When I said that Kershaw is one of the worst playoff pitchers of all time, you responded by saying that I must think Maddux is one of the worst pitchers ever. You did not specify Maddux up to age 27, nor did you specify playoffs. I understood your statement as taking his entire career, regular and postseason, into account. If you were referring to Maddux's playoff performance up to age 27, then sure, there is a comparison with Kershaw. Neither were very good at all.

However, there are some major differences between the two. First, Kershaw is pitching in a pitcher's era, whereas Maddux was pitching during the steroid era (one could say it started in the late 80s or at the latest, early 90s when Maddux was around age 27). Maddux was also racking up Gold Gloves, whereas Kershaw might never win one. Lastly, Maddux managed to win a WS at age 29 despite poor playoff performance.

So, let's adjust what I said. At age 27, sure, Kershaw might be comparable to Maddux. Outside of that, there is no comparison, unless you want to bring up Maddux's Gold Gloves, WS ring, wins, durability (why wasn't Kershaw pitching in April this year? Isn't he comparable to Maddux?). Maddux was consistently throwing over 250 innings, whereas Kershaw can't even get to 200? Really? Sure, Kershaw has an MVP, and Maddux does not. I guess that means they're about the same.

You're talking to a guy who loves Kershaw and whose favorite pitcher of all time is Maddux. There's no need to throw Maddux into this discussion. He was not a very good playoff pitcher at all, but something tells me Kershaw doesn't have the durability to come anywhere close to the kind of career Maddux had. Like I said, Kershaw has a better chance of being more like Johan Santana, and that's not a knock on either Johan or Clayton. Maddux was just that good.

[Neddy]

christ, let's reverse the argument. if you think Maddux up to 27 can be excused because he excelled for the long duration of his career and eventually made amends with his lack of playoff performance and yet you totally dismiss Kershaw's future which has not played out yet?

and truly, of course anyone with a decent sense would not need to be told the comparison of a young pitcher to a HOF pitcher is going to be up to their comparative age only. why else would anyone make an argument for any player at any sports when an active young player at his early career is compared to yesteryear's greats? are we wrong when someone say Blake Griffin is having a career comparable to Karl Malone? is it wrong to say Derek Carr of the Raiders in his rookie season, has outplayed Troy Aikman? of course anyone with a common sense will know that there is no point comparing how many all-star/probowl selections each had, because blake is just starting out. so is Derek. but it seems that is exactly what you are doing. that is non sense.

lastly, you don't even sport a dodger team emblem on your avatar and i have never seen you post in dodgers forum, it is hard to believe you are a dodger fan, let alone someone who is a fan of Kershaw as you say. but my boy is named Maddux. he has been playing organized baseball for the last 3 years, and I can proudly say I sponsor the dodgers of my little town's youth league.

[history]

As I figured. You're intentionally sabotaging the argument. Spend more time with your kid and less time trolling online. Ignored.

[RIPskaterdude]

neddie doesn't even have history on his side, smh

[TheKingofSting]

Literally!

[SDChargers#1]

Kershaw is quite literally the most dominant pitcher through his age 26 season ever (3 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, 4 straight ML ERA titles, the lowest ERA among Starters with at least 1,000 innings pitched). How the heck is Bumgarner winning this poll?

Because of 8 games of Kershaw's career (6 since he was 21) out of 217 for his career? Talk about overreacting to a small sample size.

[Stanford]

How the heck is Bumgarner winning this poll?

The season ends at 162 for you, huh?

[SDChargers#1]

How the heck is Bumgarner winning this poll?

The season ends at 162 for you, huh?

Nope, obviously not. I simply value what a player does over 96% of their games more than 4% of them, even if the 4% are more important games.

Is Robert Horry better than Karl Malone simply because Horry has 7 championships to Malone's 0? Obviously not, and in baseball it shouldn't be any different.

[Stanford]

Nope, obviously not. I simply value what a player does over 96% of their games more than 4% of them, even if the 4% are more important games.

Whether the reasoning is correct or not, it's pretty obvious why Bumgarner is leading this poll. He just had a historically heroic post season.

Is Robert Horry better than Karl Malone simply because Horry has 7 championships to Malone's 0?

No, but Tim Duncan is.

[SDChargers#1]

Whether the reasoning is correct or not, it's pretty obvious why Bumgarner is leading this poll. He just had a historically heroic post season.

That is the point of my question, maybe I should have made it more obvious. But the reasoning is what I am calling into question. Josh Beckett has had amazing post season success as well as Cole Hamels. Yet, when they went on their runs I never heard anyone saying they were the best pitchers in baseball.

No, but Tim Duncan is.

And their is a good argument for that aside from just championships (i.e. defense).

[RIPskaterdude]

The difference is, Beckett and Hamels never single handily won the World Series for their teams. I believe the Giants won 6 out of the 12 games Bum pitched in.

[Quake Griffin]

Neither did Bumgarner.