Game 27: Cavs vs. Minnesota Timberwolves 7:00 EST, NBATV FSO

King Stannis · Post #1 » by **King Stannis** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:14 am

The Cavs host Kevin Love's former team Tuesday night at the Q. The Cavs are coming off a solid win against the Memphis Grizzlies while the Wolves have struggled with injuries while balancing a very young roster. Wolves coach Flip Saunders had some choice words for the former franchise star:

"Minnesota people are pretty loyal. You turn on Minnesota, they don't forgive you," Saunders said after practice Monday. "So I think people probably appreciated him while he was here. But you leave under the terms that he did, just the way Minnesota people are, they're not pretty forgiving along those lines."

Carried by NBATV and Fox Sports Ohio.

Keys to the Game:

1. Hustle, don't play to the level of competition.
2. Defense!
3. Move the ball on offense.
4. Rebound.
5. Dion Waiters continues playing well.

Recommendations:

Let Love flip the switch to God Mode. Feed him. Let him have his moment.

tornicade · Post #2 » by **tornicade** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:11 pm

Should be an interesting game with Bennett and Wiggins looking to show their A game to the Cavs.Im hoping Irving can show the same floor game he did against Memphis. A double double Irving in Points and Assist along with strong backcourt defense will go a long way towards the teams overall development

King Stannis · Post #3 » by **King Stannis** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:20 pm

Lots of salt from some Wolves fan about Love. Not sure they can complain too much considering they got the gold standard when it comes to disgruntled stars leaving.

tornicade · Post #4 » by **tornicade** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:47 pm

Although Flip wanted some guys who can win some now. he was better off getting a legitimate core to build around.

Dupp · Post #5 » by **Dupp** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:04 am

looking forward to seeing wiggins and bennett

Flight33 · Post #6 » by **Flight33** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:39 am

Ya'll can go ahead and regret the Wiggins trade now.

King Stannis · Post #7 » by **King Stannis** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:11 am

Flight33 wrote:Ya'll can go ahead and regret the Wiggins trade now.

Lol. The only person that regrets the trade is Wiggins.

Dupp · Post #8 » by **Dupp** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:47 am

Any word on Varejao?

SmoothKobra · Post #9 » by **SmoothKobra** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:58 am

Flight33 wrote:Ya'll can go ahead and regret the Wiggins trade now.

We already do. Amd Wiggins will only get better

King Stannis · Post #10 » by **King Stannis** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:46 am

SmoothKobra wrote:
Flight33 wrote:Ya'll can go ahead and regret the Wiggins trade now.

We already do. Amd Wiggins will only get better

I would say you are in the minority. At this point.

Dupp · Post #11 » by **Dupp** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:29 am

Yeah I was against the trade but looking at things now, providing love stays, it was for the best.

SaiCLE · Post #12 » by **SaiCLE** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:54 am

I figured we would be the ones to let Wiggins go off. Glad love feasted on the wolves. Kyrie is back to dominating and LeBron is awesome. Varejao injury is sad but could be a good thing. Since it force blatt to start the better defender/player Thompson. Andy getting 20/2 deal is f*cking terrible

SaiCLE · Post #13 » by **SaiCLE** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:56 am

mr4rthqrtr wrote:Wiggins is shooting .385 from the field and averaging 12.0 points and 4.0 boards for the team with the worst record in the Western Conference.
Bennett, who is only playing 16.8 minutes a game off the bench, continues to disappoint and is only chipping in 6.2 points and 4.0 rebounds

Yeah Bennett sucks as*

Dupp · Post #14 » by **Dupp** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:51 pm

What is Varejaos injury or we dunno yet???

As for TT being the better player and defender i agree. This is interesting,

SmoothKobra · Post #15 » by **SmoothKobra** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:23 pm

King Stannis wrote:
SmoothKobra wrote:
Flight33 wrote:Ya'll can go ahead and regret the Wiggins trade now.

We already do. Amd Wiggins will only get better

I would say you are in the minyority. At this point.

This team can't win a title as currently constructed, and we have zero financial flexibility thanks tonthe trade. If you think I'm in the minority, give it 6 months, give it a year, the people on my side will only get louder as the verdict becomes more and more obvious to the mainstream. It wasn't just Wiggins/Bennett/Miami lotto first for Love (insane) it was also our ability to make this now flawed team better. Defense is still a thing that is required for contention. We don't have it, and we don't have the ability to improve. All in for Love. How shortsighted.

taikibansei · Post #16 » by **taikibansei** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:07 pm

SmoothKobra wrote:
Flight33 wrote:Ya'll can go ahead and regret the Wiggins trade now.

We already do. Amd Wiggins will only get better

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/andrew-wiggins-lebron-james/

In fact, Wiggins has been one of the worst players in basketball this season — period. Among players logging as many minutes as he has, nobody has a lower Statistical Plus/Minus (SPM) or Box Plus/Minus (BPM) or fewer Win Shares per 48 minutes. And only Channing Frye has a lower Player Efficiency Rating. ESPN’s Real Plus/Minus is slightly kinder to Wiggins, but not by much.

Maybe it’s time to forget James as the potential ceiling for Wiggins and to simply wonder what the best-case scenario is for a player who starts off his career this badly.

Basically, including last night, Wiggins has had two good games this year. Two. Read the article for a more detailed analysis.

On the other hand, the oft-maligned (here and on the Wolves board) Love was a back-up to Al Jefferson his first year. Who were the other starters? On the 2008-9 roster, it was Ryan Gomes, Randy Foye, Mike Miller and Sebastian Telfair. Of that starting line-up, only two players were NBA caliber starters—and one (Al Jefferson) played Love’s position. (This was the hallmarks of the Twolves throughout the “Love” era…Love’s most capable “help” almost invariably played Love’s position.) Still, Love--as a rookie coming off the bench and playing just 25 minutes a game--led that Twolves team in win shares (5.3 to Jefferson’s 4.9), and was second in rebounding, second in blocked shots and fourth in points. He also finished the season ninth in the league in rebounding, first among rookies, and ranked third in total offensive rebounds. Love also led all first-years with 29 double-doubles, the most by a Timberwolves rookie in franchise history. He also ranked first in the league in offensive rebound percentage, becoming the first rookie to lead the league since Hakeem Olajuwon in 1984–85.

I.e., Love, a back-up on a horrible team, still somehow managed to have a pretty darn good season that first year...and has gone on to a (very) good career--including this year. Wiggins, a starter on an improved (even with the injuries) Twolves team, has had two good games this year. Two. In most of the other games, he's been bad, historically so. I.e., the Twolves better hope "Wiggins will only get better," because he sucks now.

Finally, regarding the point about having "zero financial flexibility," you are aware that the salary cap is projected to rise by as much as 45% over the next few years, right? E.g., read this article: http://www.businessinsider.com/nba-salary-cap-increase-2014-10 If true, this would mean that the Cavs will be able to offer a max or near max salary to one more player--hopefully, an athletic big who can guard the rim.

King Stannis · Post #17 » by **King Stannis** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:30 pm

Dupp wrote:What is Varejaos injury or we dunno yet???

As for TT being the better player and defender i agree. This is interesting,

Done for the season with torn achilles.

Dupp · Post #18 » by **Dupp** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:36 pm

Yeah thats terrible. Even though he was probably gonna get injured at some point achilles are just really random injuries, very unlucky and disappointing. We were monitoring his minutes, not much more we could have done. Silly silly contract though.

SmoothKobra · Post #19 » by **SmoothKobra** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:42 pm

taikibansei wrote:
SmoothKobra wrote:
Flight33 wrote:Ya'll can go ahead and regret the Wiggins trade now.

We already do. Amd Wiggins will only get better

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/andrew-wiggins-lebron-james/

at using plus minus to evaluate any player under any condition. There are 9 other players on the floor, playing during the same time period. Plus minus captures what's happening on the floor as a whole when a player is playing, but it isn't close to an accurate measure of their own stats. Check the plus minus list you provided...if it was an accurate measure of player production, it would capture bad players playing on good teams. It doesn't--pretty much every player in the bottom 20 is simply on a bad team.

In fact, Wiggins has been one of the worst players in basketball this season — period. Among players logging as many minutes as he has, nobody has a lower Statistical Plus/Minus (SPM) or Box Plus/Minus (BPM) or fewer Win Shares per 48 minutes. And only Channing Frye has a lower Player Efficiency Rating. ESPN’s Real Plus/Minus is slightly kinder to Wiggins, but not by much.

Maybe it’s time to forget James as the potential ceiling for Wiggins and to simply wonder what the best-case scenario is for a player who starts off his career this badly.

Basically, including last night, Wiggins has had two good games this year. Two. Read the article for a more detailed analysis.

Win shares is also an extremely poor stat, which doesn't accurately measure what a player is doing on the floor. Kevin Love had a ton of defensive win shares last season :roll:

On the other hand, the oft-maligned (here and on the Wolves board) Love was a back-up to Al Jefferson his first year. Who were the other starters? On the 2008-9 roster, it was Ryan Gomes, Randy Foye, Mike Miller and Sebastian Telfair. Of that starting line-up, only two players were NBA caliber starters—and one (Al Jefferson) played Love’s position. (This was the hallmarks of the Twolves throughout the “Love” era…Love’s most capable “help” almost invariably played Love’s position.) Still, Love--as a rookie coming off the bench and playing just 25 minutes a game--led that Twolves team in win shares (5.3 to Jefferson’s 4.9), and was second in rebounding, second in blocked shots and fourth in points. He also finished the season ninth in the league in rebounding, first among rookies, and ranked third in total offensive rebounds. Love also led all first-years with 29 double-doubles, the most by a Timberwolves rookie in franchise history. He also ranked first in the league in offensive rebound percentage, becoming the first rookie to lead the league since Hakeem Olajuwon in 1984–85.

I.e., Love, a back-up on a horrible team, still somehow managed to have a pretty darn good season that first year...and has gone on to a (very) good career--including this year. Wiggins, a starter on an improved (even with the injuries) Twolves team, has had two good games this year. Two. In most of the other games, he's been bad, historically so. I.e., the Twolves better hope "Wiggins will only get better," because he sucks now.

Win shares and plus minus don't measure direct player production. They just don't. Way too many conflating factors.

Finally, regarding the point about having "zero financial flexibility," you are aware that the salary cap is projected to rise by as much as 45% over the next few years, right? E.g., read this article: http://www.businessinsider.com/nba-salary-cap-increase-2014-10 If true, this would mean that the Cavs will be able to offer a max or near max salary to one more player--hopefully, an athletic big who can guard the rim.

The Cavs will be paying LeBron close to 30 (2016 deal), Love 25 (this summer if he stays), Kyrie 20, Varejao 10, and likely Tristan 12-14. If we say Tristan gets an average of 13Ms per this summer, that's over the 90M cap in 2016. And we're not even sure the cap is going to expand that much. The Brendan Haywood deal is of little consequence, they may have to trade him now to acquire a smaller contract post player anyway, but his nonguarenteed deal isn't all its made out to be. Most teams won't be like Cleveland, totally capped out in 2016. Most teams will actually be getting tens of millions in free money. So why would they trade a valuable asset to us for a Brendan Haywood deal which actually won't be "that bad" in the new CBA? They'll be shedding much less salary relative to the new CBA. We're not getting anything for Haywood. We traded our financial flexiblity along with Wiggins. This is it.

taikibansei · Post #20 » by **taikibansei** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:26 am

From the article:

And only Channing Frye has a lower Player Efficiency Rating.

PER is now "bad" too? Okay.... :lol:

In 31 minutes, your boy Wiggins is currently averaging 12.6 points while shooting 39% from the field--oh, can't forget those 3.9 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 1 steal and 0.5 blocks to go with his 2.0 turnovers. (Subtract his two good games, and he's giving you first-year Adam Morrison numbers for the year.

) While Wiggins may still become a good player, it's looking more and more like he's not going to be the Jordan-Lebron mix you thought.

The Cavs will be paying LeBron close to 30 (2016 deal), Love 25 (this summer if he stays), Kyrie 20, Varejao 10, and likely Tristan 12-14. If we say Tristan gets an average of 13Ms per this summer, that's over the 90M cap in 2016. And we're not even sure the cap is going to expand that much.

Right, as that article I shared also pointed out, we don't know the cap numbers for 2016 yet. They should be 45% higher--allowing flexibility not just for the Cavs, but for everyone else. E.g., trades will suddenly be a lot easier too--doubt all those guys will be with the Cavs in 2016.