GT #32: Wizards @ Thunder 8 PM (CSN/99.1 FM) [1/2/2015]

[Nivek]

I butchered nate33's comment, and should have confined my comment to the second half stretch he was discussing. I hate seeing Seraphin on the floor, and even when he gets hot shooting, he always seems to be hurting the team in other ways. But I'm trying not to assume all of Wittman's choices regarding Seraphin are the equivalent of a deer staring into the headlights.

I wonder just how ready EG thought the team would be this year. Maybe he assumed a playoff run but in no way thought the team a serious contender, and an interim goal for this year was to either truly develop Seraphin or to at least promote his trade value and get something in return for their investment. I'm barely hoping for the latter.

I don't see how running a guy out there who's playing badly would boost his trade value, but there doesn't seem to be a large number who know how bad Seraphin is playing. And, it's not just announcers from other teams or comments from fans of other teams who see Seraphin's 1-in-5 decent games. Folks like Mike Prada and Kyle Weidie (sp?) "aren't as down on Seraphin" (from Twitter) as I am. Glenn Consor has said at least a couple times that Seraphin is doing a "terrific job" off the bench.

So, there seem to be people who think Seraphin is doing just fine. I'm bewildered by this.

Also, I don't think Grunfeld brought Seraphin back to trade him. I think they brought him back because they hoped he'd be a decent backup center. Given that he's getting consistent playing time ahead of a guy who's proven to be an average NBA player, it would seem that they believe he's at worst their best option for a backup center, and/or that he actually IS a decent backup center. Again, I'm bewildered by either conclusion.

[miller31time]

I butchered nate33's comment, and should have confined my comment to the second half stretch he was discussing. I hate seeing Seraphin on the floor, and even when he gets hot shooting, he always seems to be hurting the team in other ways. But I'm trying not to assume all of Wittman's choices regarding Seraphin are the equivalent of a deer staring into the headlights.

I wonder just how ready EG thought the team would be this year. Maybe he assumed a playoff run but in no way thought the team a serious contender, and an interim goal for this year was to either truly develop Seraphin or to at least promote his trade value and get something in return for their investment. I'm barely hoping for the latter.

I don't see how running a guy out there who's playing badly would boost his trade value, but there doesn't seem to be a large number who know how bad Seraphin is playing. And, it's not just announcers from other teams or comments from fans of other teams who see Seraphin's 1-in-5 decent games. Folks like Mike Prada and Kyle Weidie (sp?) "aren't as down on Seraphin" (from Twitter) as I am. Glenn Consor has said at least a couple times that Seraphin is doing a "terrific job" off the bench.

So, there seem to be people who think Seraphin is doing just fine. I'm bewildered by this.

Also, I don't think Grunfeld brought Seraphin back to trade him. I think they brought him back because they hoped he'd be a decent backup center. Given that he's getting consistent playing time ahead of a guy who's proven to be an average NBA player, it would seem that they believe he's at worst their best option for a backup center, and/or that he actually IS a decent backup center. Again, I'm bewildered by either conclusion.

The only thing I can think of is that he has a decent looking jumpshot, some nice post moves (when pulled off) and is active.

But how any reputable basketball analyst can look at his play and ignore the fouling, turnovers, inability to rebound and constant lane to the hoop he gives to opponents, then shame on them.

Seraphin irked me from day one and hasn't done a damn thing to change my opinion one iota. Maybe that has to do with him not changing one iota. I digress.

[montestewart]

I butchered nate33's comment, and should have confined my comment to the second half stretch he was discussing. I hate seeing Seraphin on the floor, and even when he gets hot shooting, he always seems to be hurting the team in other ways. But I'm trying not to assume all of Wittman's choices regarding Seraphin are the equivalent of a deer staring into the headlights.

I wonder just how ready EG thought the team would be this year. Maybe he assumed a playoff run but in no way thought the team a serious contender, and an interim goal for this year was to either truly develop Seraphin or to at least promote his trade value and get something in return for their investment. I'm barely hoping for the latter.

I don't see how running a guy out there who's playing badly would boost his trade value, but there doesn't seem to be a large number who know how bad Seraphin is playing. And, it's not just announcers from other teams or comments from fans of other teams who see Seraphin's 1-in-5 decent games. Folks like Mike Prada and Kyle Weidie (sp?) "aren't as down on Seraphin" (from Twitter) as I am. Glenn Consor has said at least a couple times that Seraphin is doing a "terrific job" off the bench.

So, there seem to be people who think Seraphin is doing just fine. I'm bewildered by this.

Also, I don't think Grunfeld brought Seraphin back to trade him. I think they brought him back because they hoped he'd be a decent backup center. Given that he's getting consistent playing time ahead of a guy who's proven to be an average NBA player, it would seem that they believe he's at worst their best option for a backup center, and/or that he actually IS a decent backup center. Again, I'm bewildered by either conclusion.

Judging by the bulk of comments on this board, especially during games, you are far from alone in this. There were few Seraphin believers left at the start of the season, and there's but a handful of those remaining. Someone in another thread made the hopeful point about the ego of some GMs perhaps allowing them to consider his bulk and apparent skills, along with the occasional good game, and somehow thinking under their guidance, Seraphin actually could be a productive player.

I think the Seraphin retention was the most disappointing offseason move, but if EG still believed in him, maybe some other GM might be convinced to take a chance. Please?

[miller31time]

Another interesting thing I've noticed about the media and Kevin Seraphin....

Whenever he does something wrong (gives up a lane to the basket or commits a bad foul, Buck always seems to attribute it to the "team." As if it was collectively all five of them who were responsible.

[Nivek]

I think Seraphin is the big man version of Maynor.

[dobrojim]

One more thing. I think the Spurs are very vulnerable right now. I can see the Wizards winning tomorrow night and against the Pelicans on Monday and all the negative nellies will be back on the bandwagon again....well, at least until the next loss.

Agreed. With Parker out and Kawhi too IIRC, we have a chance which is a rare thing for us
against SAS. Pelicans are potentially tough too but we've beaten them once already.

[dobrojim]

I butchered nate33's comment, and should have confined my comment to the second half stretch he was discussing. I hate seeing Seraphin on the floor, and even when he gets hot shooting, he always seems to be hurting the team in other ways. But I'm trying not to assume all of Wittman's choices regarding Seraphin are the equivalent of a deer staring into the headlights.

I wonder just how ready EG thought the team would be this year. Maybe he assumed a playoff run but in no way thought the team a serious contender, and an interim goal for this year was to either truly develop Seraphin or to at least promote his trade value and get something in return for their investment. I'm barely hoping for the latter.

I don't see how running a guy out there who's playing badly would boost his trade value, but there doesn't seem to be a large number who know how bad Seraphin is playing. And, it's not just announcers from other teams or comments from fans of other teams who see Seraphin's 1-in-5 decent games. Folks like Mike Prada and Kyle Weidie (sp?) "aren't as down on Seraphin" (from Twitter) as I am. Glenn Consor has said at least a couple times that Seraphin is doing a "terrific job" off the bench.

So, there seem to be people who think Seraphin is doing just fine. I'm bewildered by this.

Also, I don't think Grunfeld brought Seraphin back to trade him. I think they brought him back because they hoped he'd be a decent backup center. Given that he's getting consistent playing time ahead of a guy who's proven to be an average NBA player, it would seem that they believe he's at worst their best option for a backup center, and/or that he actually IS a decent backup center. Again, I'm bewildered by either conclusion.

Was watching the game at a friends house last night. He's a bit of a newbie as a Wizards fan and
when KS came in the game I groaned and correctly predicted exactly the bad things that would follow.
Fouls, TOs, and lack of defense and rebounding. Speaking of fouls, cough DeJuan Blair, cough.

But re Consor, he is really hesitant, as much as he tries to deny it, to be really honest about
the effectiveness or lack thereof of certain players especially Kevin Seraphin. This is not surprising
considering how close he is to the team. If it's not helpful to the team to point out deficient players,
he will err on the side of discretion. He travels with the team and is around these guys all the time.
Gotta be hard.

[dandridge 10]

I agree with all the negative comments about Seraphin. I also don't understand why he is getting playing time over Blair, who as Nivek points out, is shown to be at least an average NBA player. The only reason I can think that they are playing Seraphin is that it is well known that it typically takes longer to develop big men and Seraphin did not start playing basketball until late. He has the body, athleticism and skill-set offensively to be an above average good basketball player (his touch around the rim is really good). He just doesn't have the basketball IQ. I think they are hoping that with more playing time, he will gain that IQ and be at least a productive back-up center. I think it is unlikely that is going to happen, but as bad as Seraphin is, I have seen some improvement this year in terms of passing out of double teams, etc. Given our record and that we still have a long season to go, I at least can understand why they are still giving minutes to Seraphin (although I personally wouldn't). If his play doesn't start improving, however, I would expect to see less and less of him. At least that is my hope.

[Nivek]

I agree with all the negative comments about Seraphin. I also don't understand why he is getting playing time over Blair, who as Nivek points out, is shown to be at least an average NBA player. The only reason I can think that they are playing Seraphin is that it is well known that it typically takes longer to develop big men and Seraphin did not start playing basketball until late. He has the body, athleticism and skill-set offensively to be an above average good basketball player (his touch around the rim is really good). He just doesn't have the basketball IQ. I think they are hoping that with more playing time, he will gain that IQ and be at least a productive back-up center. I think it is unlikely that is going to happen, but as bad as Seraphin is, I have seen some improvement this year in terms of passing out of double teams, etc. Given our record and that we still have a long season to go, I at least can understand why they are still giving minutes to Seraphin (although I personally wouldn't). If his play doesn't start improving, however, I would expect to see less and less of him. At least that is my hope.

I think we've all been hoping Seraphin would "get it" with playing time. And maybe that "get it" moment is still coming. He's at ~4600 career minutes at this point. I know people think he's gotten better passing out of double teams, but he's at a career high in turnovers and his assists have been falling throughout the season. And he's still fouling excessively, which is often a sign of a player being over-matched.

I wrote about this on the blog some that Seraphin hadn't been hurting the Wizards much this season, in part because the Wizards starting lineup has been good, and in part because they've been playing a weak schedule. They can probably continue getting away with playing him against most teams in the East, and against bottom feeders in the West. But, he's going to cost them against better teams. Which we saw last night.

[AFM]

I think Seraphin is the big man version of Maynor.

No, he's the big man version of Nick Young. Or early Rudy Gay. Passes the eye test because of a pretty offensive game (Seraphin does have a beautiful hook) but is actually not a good basketball player.

I've always been optimistic about Seraphin just because he DOES have a touch around the basket that few big men have. His little moves around the basket are sick. But at some point we have to say enough is enough. I think yesterday was the turning point for me. He's so one dimensional. If he isn't on fire scoring everytime he touches the ball, he's a major liability.

[tontoz]

The bench just isn't that good. Hump is the only backup big that doesnt suck. Blair may suck less than Seraphin but that isn't saying much.

Miller is fine on offense but just isn't quick enough to guard opposing pgs. Temple is garbage.

The bench has gotten bailed out by Butlers lights out shooting but that isn't sustainable.

[Illmatic12]

Kevin can never be a good team basketball player for us, because he's the type of player who's offense fuels the rest of his game.

To him, basketball is not a team game, rather it's a showcase for him to display the individual moves he's worked on - and by 'moves' I mean one move.

He's basically Al Jefferson with 1/2 the talent. Actually that's disrespectful to Al, KS is more like Chris Kaman with 1/2 the talent. We need reserve bigs who will come off the bench who will come in and provide defense, rebounding, energy, hustle, etc.. at this point it's clear that Seraphin will NEVER be that, so cut bait.

Ed Davis signed with LA for 2 years/$2mil. not even worth rehashing at this point tbh, as I'm pretty sure everyone on this board and their mom knew EG dropped the ball on that.

[CobraCommander]

What I love about realGM is that most of the people on the board that comment understand basketball at a deeper level. The blame for the lose is being properly credited to the team and coaching--- and mainly being blamed on Durants amazing skills vs focusing on Wall or Beals failures and mistakes down the stretch. Some of the illiterate basketball fans focus on the star names and their "signature plays" or gaudy irrelevant stats vs the way the game is played. That's why people love Harden and Howard vs Parker and Duncan. When I watched this game I thought Wall and Beal did enough for us to win as individuals but the team wasn't coached well in certain spots. Pulling Miller while he was hot, webster getting minutes while he struggling (if you going to struggle- why not struggle with Porter or give Pierce those minutes), Serphim kept getting the ball in bad spots and making terrible decisions offensively and defensively. To me the main reason we lost was because Durant was MVP Durant- we don't have an answer for that. I like the way the wiz fought to the end- I can't wait till Durant is our MVP! Until then we need to keep growing and Learning. None of us felt like this was a championship team or year- I read the Guess theRecord thread... wiz are doing better than most thought. Enjoy the ride

[Nivek]

I think Seraphin is the big man version of Maynor.

No, he's the big man version of Nick Young. Or early Rudy Gay. Passes the eye test because of a pretty offensive game (Seraphin does have a beautiful hook) but is actually not a good basketball player.

I've always been optimistic about Seraphin just because he DOES have a touch around the basket that few big men have. His little moves around the basket are sick. But at some point we have to say enough is enough. I think yesterday was the turning point for me. He's so one dimensional. If he isn't on fire scoring everytime he touches the ball, he's a major liability.

Nah, Seraphin isn't as productive as either Young or early Rudy Gay. Gay was supremely overrated, but still a decent player. Young was supremely overrated, not a good player, but still could be useful in the right situation. I think Maynor is the right comp. People think he's pretty good because he looks like he knows how to play, but in reality he doesn't accomplish much of anything when he's out there.

[nate33]

I think Seraphin is the big man version of Maynor.

No, he's the big man version of Nick Young. Or early Rudy Gay. Passes the eye test because of a pretty offensive game (Seraphin does have a beautiful hook) but is actually not a good basketball player.

I've always been optimistic about Seraphin just because he DOES have a touch around the basket that few big men have. His little moves around the basket are sick. But at some point we have to say enough is enough. I think yesterday was the turning point for me. He's so one dimensional. If he isn't on fire scoring everytime he touches the ball, he's a major liability.

Nah, Seraphin isn't as productive as either Young or early Rudy Gay. Gay was supremely overrated, but still a decent player. Young was supremely overrated, not a good player, but still could be useful in the right situation. I think Maynor is the right comp. People think he's pretty good because he looks like he knows how to play, but in reality he doesn't accomplish much of anything when he's out there.

I kinda agree with AFM. Maynor is a bad comparison because when you watch Maynor play, there's nothing that he does that even fools you into believing he has any potential whatsoever. Seraphin, on the other hand, really does look good at times, at least as a scorer. The Nick Young comp may be setting the bar too high, perhaps someone like Antoine Walker or Andrea Bargnani is a better analogy, but I totally get what AFM is trying to say.

[Nivek]

No, he's the big man version of Nick Young. Or early Rudy Gay. Passes the eye test because of a pretty offensive game (Seraphin does have a beautiful hook) but is actually not a good basketball player.

I've always been optimistic about Seraphin just because he DOES have a touch around the basket that few big men have. His little moves around the basket are sick. But at some point we have to say enough is enough. I think yesterday was the turning point for me. He's so one dimensional. If he isn't on fire scoring everytime he touches the ball, he's a major liability.

Nah, Seraphin isn't as productive as either Young or early Rudy Gay. Gay was supremely overrated, but still a decent player. Young was supremely overrated, not a good player, but still could be useful in the right situation. I think Maynor is the right comp. People think he's pretty good because he looks like he knows how to play, but in reality he doesn't accomplish much of anything when he's out there.

I kinda agree with AFM. Maynor is a bad comparison because when you watch Maynor play, there's nothing that he does that even fools you into believing he has any potential whatsoever. Seraphin, on the other hand, really does look good at times, at least as a scorer. The Nick Young comp may be setting the bar too high, perhaps someone like Antoine Walker or Andrea Bargnani is a better analogy, but I totally get what AFM is trying to say.

So you're wrong too.

I get what you're saying, except...go back to what people were saying when Maynor was signed. Think about Grunfeld's "he knows how to play" quote. Think about the number of hoops writers convinced Maynor was a great pick-up for the Wizards. Maynor played even worse as a Wizards player than he had in his previous four years, but he did something in those previous four years to make people think he could play -- in defiance to what the numbers were saying. I mean, I had "eye test" OKC and POR fans telling me to ignore the numbers because Maynor could just play. That he made his teammates better. Not so much, though.

Bargnani isn't a bad comp, although he did have a 4-year run in Toronto where he was about average overall. Antoine Walker was inefficient offensively, but was an average or better player most of his career. He didn't have a season as unproductive as 4 of Seraphin's 5 until he was 30 (the year after he won a title with the Heat).

As I look back at the numbers, Young actually isn't bad, although even he was more productive than Seraphin. Young was less productive than I'd remembered. I sorta recollected him having a season in Washington that was around average, but his best PPA was a 75 in 2010-11. Maynor might not quite fit because he never had a season where he was as productive as Seraphin's second.

I can live with Seraphin being the big man version of Nick Young. Not Walker or Bargnani, though.