Jeff Green Traded to the Memphis Grizzlies (official woj tweet page 1)

[darrendaye]

I'm thinking Bass and Thornton as part of a package deal for a larger contract, say Eric Gordon, if New Orleans is : 1. not receiving substantial interest from other teams for him now, 2. want more scoring punch for a playoff run this year, and 3. want to clear cap room for this off-season.

Ainge is not adding $17 million on to next years payroll for Eric Gordon.

Yeah, what's in it for us? They don't have a pick to give, and they don't have any good cheap players.. It's only worth taking on big salary if we're dumping Wallace, consolidating contracts, or getting back some compensation- a high draft pick or a prospect. You can't take on Gordon just because the numbers work, especially when we're probably going to have major cap space for the first time in decades.

They can throw in a 1st rounder down the road if the market dictates it's considered a somewhat toxic contract. I personally don't see any clear long term solutions on the free agent horizon and as has been discussed (unless that theory is wrong per the CBA), Ainge would need to "waive" the $12.9MM TPE he worked so hard to build through the Rondo trade. The Knicks are going to have Carmelo, a hyped top draft pick and cap space for a max contract and it's NY. Lakers, same allure. Philly is flush with space.

I think it's much more prudent at this time to pick up a band-aid type scorer for next season as a near max expiring than get into a spending frenzy while the team is NOT very attractive. If a power free agent happens to LOVE Boston, he can always push his way to a sign and trade and Ainge could use the expiring (or the TPE) as the cap filler.

Unless you can sell me that the market as it stands will make 1 and 2 year deals the norm with pending jump in cap in 2017, I'm looking to build a young inexpensive base ahead of that, THEN be in position to pounce on a Max guy who wants to join a team in clear ascension. Otherwise, this move I suggested, clears 2 spots on the current roster and consolidates it into one contract on a guy who likely will be out for the year. The following season you might have a rebound situation and be in great position again to accumulate assets trading him. I want Ainge in position to use the TPE for a situation he can control from a fit and cost perspective and seek to lure a big time role player if he is willing to accept the MLE.

[Andrew McCeltic]

They can throw in a 1st rounder down the road if the market dictates it's considered a somewhat toxic contract. I personally don't see any clear long term solutions on the free agent horizon and as has been discussed (unless that theory is wrong per the CBA), Ainge would need to "waive" the $12.9MM TPE he worked so hard to build through the Rondo trade. The Knicks are going to have Carmelo, a hyped top draft pick and cap space for a max contract and it's NY. Lakers, same allure. Philly is flush with space.

I think it's much more prudent at this time to pick up a band-aid type scorer for next season as a near max expiring than get into a spending frenzy while the team is NOT very attractive. If a power free agent happens to LOVE Boston, he can always push his way to a sign and trade and Ainge could use the expiring (or the TPE) as the cap filler.

Unless you can sell me that the market as it stands will make 1 and 2 year deals the norm with pending jump in cap in 2017, I'm looking to build a young inexpensive base ahead of that, THEN be in position to pounce on a Max guy who wants to join a team in clear ascension. Otherwise, this move I suggested, clears 2 spots on the current roster and consolidates it into one contract on a guy who likely will be out for the year. The following season you might have a rebound situation and be in great position again to accumulate assets trading him. I want Ainge in position to use the TPE for a situation he can control from a fit and cost perspective and seek to lure a big time role player if he is willing to accept the MLE.

I actually sympathize with that conservative strategy- I'll tear my hair out if Ainge gives the max to Paul Milsapp. But assume we strike out in free agency. Options then: take on bad salary like Gordon, sign guys to one-year deals to hit the salary floor and roll over our cap, and/or trade rookie-scale guys for paid ones. Utah got Al Jefferson for nothing because they were under the cap- we can look at deals like Sullinger straight up for Al Horford, depending on what happens in Atlanta..

If you want to get out of the free agent game in advance, I just don't think it's worth doing unless we're getting a major asset back as compensation for taking bad contracts. Expirings for Landry/Thompson/Mclemore, for example.. Or Indiana's unprotected 1st as the reward for taking back George Hill and David West..

[BfB]

Ainge is not adding $17 million on to next years payroll for Eric Gordon.

Yeah, what's in it for us? They don't have a pick to give, and they don't have any good cheap players.. It's only worth taking on big salary if we're dumping Wallace, consolidating contracts, or getting back some compensation- a high draft pick or a prospect. You can't take on Gordon just because the numbers work, especially when we're probably going to have major cap space for the first time in decades.

They can throw in a 1st rounder down the road if the market dictates it's considered a somewhat toxic contract. I personally don't see any clear long term solutions on the free agent horizon and as has been discussed (unless that theory is wrong per the CBA), Ainge would need to "waive" the $12.9MM TPE he worked so hard to build through the Rondo trade. The Knicks are going to have Carmelo, a hyped top draft pick and cap space for a max contract and it's NY. Lakers, same allure. Philly is flush with space.

I think it's much more prudent at this time to pick up a band-aid type scorer for next season as a near max expiring than get into a spending frenzy while the team is NOT very attractive. If a power free agent happens to LOVE Boston, he can always push his way to a sign and trade and Ainge could use the expiring (or the TPE) as the cap filler.

Unless you can sell me that the market as it stands will make 1 and 2 year deals the norm with pending jump in cap in 2017, I'm looking to build a young inexpensive base ahead of that, THEN be in position to pounce on a Max guy who wants to join a team in clear ascension. Otherwise, this move I suggested, clears 2 spots on the current roster and consolidates it into one contract on a guy who likely will be out for the year. The following season you might have a rebound situation and be in great position again to accumulate assets trading him. I want Ainge in position to use the TPE for a situation he can control from a fit and cost perspective and seek to lure a big time role player if he is willing to accept the MLE.

Thornton is the "bandaide" scorer and Wallace can be waived and stretched if the team wants cap money and roster space. Better to give Turner/Thornton their auditions with heavy minutes this year, keep the cap where its at, and play the market as it develops.

People continually forget how valuable outgoing salary is to make trades work. Having cap space helps make trades easier, but if you wish to maximize your cap space you want to be able to exchange players who are paid at or below their relative value so you have more flexibility for future moves.

[darrendaye]

It's not solely me being conservative, it's more pragmatic. To free the salary cap space, you have to relinquish the TPE. They could do the same Hortford for Sullinger trade (hypothetically) by NOT having the cap space. Trade Sully for a lower salary guy or a TPE Atlanta might have and absorb Hortford's $12mm into the 12.9mm TPE they would still hold at that point.

[darrendaye]

Thornton is the "bandaide" scorer and Wallace can be waived and stretched if the team wants cap money and roster space. Better to give Turner/Thornton their auditions with heavy minutes this year, keep the cap where its at, and play the market as it develops.

People continually forget how valuable outgoing salary is to make trades work. Having cap space helps make trades easier, but if you wish to maximize your cap space you want to be able to exchange players who are paid at or below their relative value so you have more flexibility for future moves.

Again, though, you think Ainge relinquishes the large TPE to have that flexibility THIS off-season? Because I'm naive to how both can be used without sacrificing one.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Thornton is the "bandaide" scorer and Wallace can be waived and stretched if the team wants cap money and roster space. Better to give Turner/Thornton their auditions with heavy minutes this year, keep the cap where its at, and play the market as it develops.

Good point, I never remember the stretch is an option with Wallace.. But he'd still count against the cap for 2-3 million, and those marginal amounts can be the difference between signing one player or two.

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

Thornton is the "bandaide" scorer and Wallace can be waived and stretched if the team wants cap money and roster space. Better to give Turner/Thornton their auditions with heavy minutes this year, keep the cap where its at, and play the market as it develops.

Good point, I never remember the stretch is an option with Wallace.. But he'd still count against the cap for 2-3 million, and those marginal amounts can be the difference between signing one player or two.

If the new cap comes into play soon, 3 million a year will be a lot less to swallow. But as the cap stands right now, I'd agree with you about the 3 million hurting. I think Ainge will drum up his trade interest though as an expiring contract.

[jfs1000d]

Thornton is the "bandaide" scorer and Wallace can be waived and stretched if the team wants cap money and roster space. Better to give Turner/Thornton their auditions with heavy minutes this year, keep the cap where its at, and play the market as it develops.

Good point, I never remember the stretch is an option with Wallace.. But he'd still count against the cap for 2-3 million, and those marginal amounts can be the difference between signing one player or two.

I don't think the stretch is a good option for ownership. If I am Wyc, and I am paying these guys, I am not paying a guy to go away. I am just not going to do it. $15 million is not chump change and is not good business practice.

Danny Ainge is the President and GM. It's not just about cap management, the actual cash paid matters to these people. If Wallace is an impediment for making a huge deal, then I do the stretch. But. just to stretch him to open up a roster spot or because he doesn't fit? Get out of here. That's wasting money.

If we needed cap room for a deal? Sure, I would stretch it, but we aren't at that point and he is getting paid. He should be ready to play.

When we trade Green, I would play Wallace and Thornton at the 3 to go with Crowder.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Thornton is the "bandaide" scorer and Wallace can be waived and stretched if the team wants cap money and roster space. Better to give Turner/Thornton their auditions with heavy minutes this year, keep the cap where its at, and play the market as it develops.

Good point, I never remember the stretch is an option with Wallace.. But he'd still count against the cap for 2-3 million, and those marginal amounts can be the difference between signing one player or two.

I don't think the stretch is a good option for ownership. If I am Wyc, and I am paying these guys, I am not paying a guy to go away. I am just not going to do it. $15 million is not chump change and is not good business practice.

Danny Ainge is the President and GM. It's not just about cap management, the actual cash paid matters to these people. If Wallace is an impediment for making a huge deal, then I do the stretch. But. just to stretch him to open up a roster spot or because he doesn't fit? Get out of here. That's wasting money.

If we needed cap room for a deal? Sure, I would stretch it, but we aren't at that point and he is getting paid. He should be ready to play.

When we trade Green, I would play Wallace and Thornton at the 3 to go with Crowder.

Right, except currently they're paying Wallace 10 million a year to keep the bench warm. You can put heated chairs on the side of the court for that much money (why hasn't Cuban done this yet? Seems like a great opportunity for pseudo-scientific-medical ergonomic memory foam folding seats with fold-over iPad lap consoles that review plays).

But no one's talking about stretching Wallace for aesthetic reasons, unless they have OCD. It just feels more right to have that open roster spot! We're only going to stretch him if it means signing Kevin Love and Deandre Jordan.. Then you pay him his last 10 million over three years to go the hell away and you give him a nice framed certificate of thanks for his professionalism.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I'm actually hopeful they entertain offers for Green, take the best one, and then deal Wallace to the runner-up (Memphis?).

[Captain_Caveman]

The thing with Wallace next year is that there will also be a salary floor to deal with. Probably going to have to spend that money regardless. That last 10m in cap space is highly unlikely to be needed IMO. Would require something like Gasol and Aldridge deciding to both sign with us, and that won't happen. Also unlikely, but worth mentioning, is that the TPE pretty much duplicates that last 10m in cap space, and you can't have both.

Stretching him would be short-sighted unless it freed up some big move, and using a pick to dump him would really only open up the possibility of getting a pick back for taking on a contract exactly like his.

I see about an 90%+ chance of him still being on the team in a year. It was the price of doing business in raping the Nets. Maybe his contract will be useful at next year's deadline, I dunno. Wouldn't bank on it.

[Andrew McCeltic]

The thing with Wallace next year is that there will also be a salary floor to deal with. Probably going to have to spend that money regardless. That last 10m in cap space is highly unlikely to be needed IMO. Would require something like Gasol and Aldridge deciding to both sign with us, and that won't happen. Also unlikely, but worth mentioning, is that the TPE pretty much duplicates that last 10m in cap space, and you can't have both.

Stretching him would be short-sighted unless it freed up some big move, and using a pick to dump him would really only open up the possibility of getting a pick back for taking on a contract exactly like his.

I see about an 90%+ chance of him still being on the team in a year. It was the price of doing business in raping the Nets. Maybe his contract will be useful at next year's deadline, I dunno. Wouldn't bank on it.

Can you have a TPE if you're under the cap, so it counts like a player or a cap hold? Or does it go away once you drop under the line?

I think we're a dark horse for Kevin Love.. You get him to commit, then you pitch a defense-first 5 like Asik, Hibbert, Jordan to cover for him. Then you have the pieces to grow around him/Jordan (both still young) and/or trade for another star (Westbrook?).. The Cleveland situation is so sad to watch- they could put it all together, and they're two smart moves away from a rock-solid contender. But they're one or two dumb moves away from having it all fall apart again, and it would be so much worse the second time around. You know Love's got a little Dwight/Ray prima donna in him, even if he keeps quiet. And you know he likes our organization. If he does leave, New York and LA are obviously appealing, but Boston's got a leg up on Cleveland, too.. Who thought Dwight would pick Houston?

[SMTBSI]

It's not solely me being conservative, it's more pragmatic. To free the salary cap space, you have to relinquish the TPE. They could do the same Hortford for Sullinger trade (hypothetically) by NOT having the cap space. Trade Sully for a lower salary guy or a TPE Atlanta might have and absorb Hortford's $12mm into the 12.9mm TPE they would still hold at that point.

At one point we had been hashing out a BOS/NOP/SAC trade idea over on the trade board that:

1.) Turned several of Boston's veteran contracts into Gordon+Stauskas
2.) Generated a 9.8mil Green TPE without touching the Rondo TPE
3.) Cleared Boston to over 14mil below the tax, letting us use the entire Rondo TPE this year, and keep the Green one for next year.


One of my visions of the rebuild is to take back the entire league's bad two-year salary for assets, then have it all expire at the same time as Wallace, giving us truly historic cap space in the summer of 2016.


Anyway, that fantasy aside, I agree in general that shooting for huge cap space this summer doesn't seem the way to go. I can't see us luring anyone much just yet, so might as well continue to rent out our cap space one more year for assets.

[Smitty731]

Can you have a TPE if you're under the cap, so it counts like a player or a cap hold? Or does it go away once you drop under the line?

I think we're a dark horse for Kevin Love.. You get him to commit, then you pitch a defense-first 5 like Asik, Hibbert, Jordan to cover for him. Then you have the pieces to grow around him/Jordan (both still young) and/or trade for another star (Westbrook?).. The Cleveland situation is so sad to watch- they could put it all together, and they're two smart moves away from a rock-solid contender. But they're one or two dumb moves away from having it all fall apart again, and it would be so much worse the second time around. You know Love's got a little Dwight/Ray prima donna in him, even if he keeps quiet. And you know he likes our organization. If he does leave, New York and LA are obviously appealing, but Boston's got a leg up on Cleveland, too.. Who thought Dwight would pick Houston?

You keep the TPE if you are over the Cap, or if adding to the existing salaries and holds, brings you back over the Cap. If, even after adding it back in, it does not, you lose the TPE. You can't have any Exceptions (minus the Room Exception) and Cap space. It is either or.

As for the salary floor, too much is made of that, in my opinion. If you miss, you simply take the amount you missed by and divide it up amongst the players on your roster. Even Philadelphia managed to make the floor last year. You can always eat a deal later if it comes down to it. I don't think any team stresses over making the floor.

As for trades, I'd do the Gordon for Wallace deal. At least Gordon could have some semblance of value as a shooter. Wallace, at this point, has nothing left. Gordon will never be worth his contract, but he could be worth a portion of it. Wallace won't even get there.

[Andrew McCeltic]

http://midlevelexceptional.com/2014/07/ ... exception/ suggests that the TPE basically counts against the cap like a player or a hold would.

They count against the cap but not the luxury tax – Paralleling other exceptions in the NBA, trade exceptions reduce a team’s salary cap space when on the books. Like the Mid-Level, they can be renounced should a team want that but already-existing trade exceptions can also be used to prop a team over the cap should that be strategically beneficial. (I must mention here that teams under the cap do not receive trade exceptions, another value of using tricks like cap holds to stay over the cap when possible to maximize flexibility.) However, it should also be noted that trade exceptions do not count against the luxury tax. Teams under the tax line like Oklahoma City and Golden State last season were not pushed over by having them and teams in the tax like Miami and Brooklyn did not have to pay additional tax on theirs.

So darren's right that it's interchangeable with cap space- we could sign a player and have ten million left under the cap, but we'd have to renounce the TPE to use the space. Alternately, we could use the TPE and lose the cap space.

Are there any mind-bending ways to get around that restriction? This does seem to be uncharted territory with imprecise rules as far as what the league will accept, so it's good to know management is testing the limits as much as they can.. It seems most likely that they'll use the TPE to facilitate trades this season, since you can do some creative accounting to make deals work.. The more I read about it, the TPE in 2015 is what the expiring contract was in 2005.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Can you have a TPE if you're under the cap, so it counts like a player or a cap hold? Or does it go away once you drop under the line?

I think we're a dark horse for Kevin Love.. You get him to commit, then you pitch a defense-first 5 like Asik, Hibbert, Jordan to cover for him. Then you have the pieces to grow around him/Jordan (both still young) and/or trade for another star (Westbrook?).. The Cleveland situation is so sad to watch- they could put it all together, and they're two smart moves away from a rock-solid contender. But they're one or two dumb moves away from having it all fall apart again, and it would be so much worse the second time around. You know Love's got a little Dwight/Ray prima donna in him, even if he keeps quiet. And you know he likes our organization. If he does leave, New York and LA are obviously appealing, but Boston's got a leg up on Cleveland, too.. Who thought Dwight would pick Houston?

You keep the TPE if you are over the Cap, or if adding to the existing salaries and holds, brings you back over the Cap. If, even after adding it back in, it does not, you lose the TPE. You can't have any Exceptions (minus the Room Exception) and Cap space. It is either or.

As for the salary floor, too much is made of that, in my opinion. If you miss, you simply take the amount you missed by and divide it up amongst the players on your roster. Even Philadelphia managed to make the floor last year. You can always eat a deal later if it comes down to it. I don't think any team stresses over making the floor.

As for trades, I'd do the Gordon for Wallace deal. At least Gordon could have some semblance of value as a shooter. Wallace, at this point, has nothing left. Gordon will never be worth his contract, but he could be worth a portion of it. Wallace won't even get there.

Thanks, I started writing my post before I saw yours. Agreed about the salary floor- it seems like good karma to have a 30 million dollar payroll and give an extra million or two to your roster as an end of season bonus.

The only wrinkle I can imagine with the TPE, then, is that you could keep your holds (don't renounce Thornton etc.) to use your TPE, then renounce guys to go back under the cap. I can't imagine any reason to do that, but maybe there are nuances that make it worthwhile..

And I think Gordon/Wallace only makes sense if you're adding Bradley into the mix and taking back Evans or Anderson or Asik.. As a straight swap, it's not worth it to me.

[EdXDavis21]

Would Celtic fans do Lin for Jeff Green? I think it makes sense for both teams....

[Andrew McCeltic]

Would Celtic fans do Lin for Jeff Green? I think it makes sense for both teams....

What's the sense for Boston? We'd be trading expirings..

[Froob]

Would Celtic fans do Lin for Jeff Green? I think it makes sense for both teams....

In what way? Lin is just another expiring. Solid point but Green definitely has more value.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Putting Randle into the deal, or a Randle/Sullinger swap, those are the only ways I can imagine Boston biting.