Official Trade Thread: New Year, New Thread, New Laughs

[thamadkant]

I rather hold on to Warren assuming McD will start instructing Hornacek to give him minutes regardless of how well Tucker, Morris twins, Green are playing...

The only reason to consider Mozgov is because he will solidify the center spot... Plumlee is not at good as Mozgov.
It will also express Len's development further as he will be going up against a decent player.

if Suns were really serious on being competitive whilst developing rookies/youth... run the following

C: Len / Plumlee
PF: Morris / Morris
SF: Warren / Tucker
SG: Dragic / Goodwin
PG: Bledsoe / Ennis

Warren steps up to the plate, Goodwin and Ennis too... Bledsoe, Dragic, Morris twins and Len will hold the fort whilst Warren/Goodwin/Ennis gets to develop on court, adapt to the speed/intensity of an NBA game that has consequences.
Suns will likely hover around 0.500 though... but by the end of the season and from next season.. the team would be better.

[Ryu]

If someone wants to trade Warren for Mozgov they are out of their mind. I don't need a long post to say that.

I will add to that. Warren was better than Parker last year and on a far worse team. He was double and triple teamed. This guy could turn out to be OUR guy. I mean, in all likelihood, the only way we achieve premier status is through the draft, and you want to trade this guy for a guy in an effort for the 8 seed?

This.

I expect Warren to be our starting SF from next season on.

[Revived]

Im sure there are also other players in the League that McD loves, it just depends on who he loves more and if he values winning now over losing now while spending time developing youngsters, because thats what it takes.

I'm gonna take a stab and say he values his younger players much much more. McD got to pick the youngens himself and clearly sees a lot of potential in them (and values them more than the rest of the league). Aside from that, the line from McD has always been "this team is rebuilding" which roughly translates to "I will trade my older guys if I'm getting enough value back".

If you pick a guy and see potential in him, you're not going to trade him because his minutes aren't there. You're going to make minutes for him (usually by trading an older player). But that's not going to happen overnight. McD would rather milk a vet for all the value he's got (see: Dudley4Bled).

A youngen who misses out on consistent minutes for a couple of seasons isn't going to be that worse off, especially when getting D-League minutes. It's also worth noting that McD drafts younger prospects (Ennis 20, Archie 20, TJ 21, Len 21) so you could easily think of it as just a college extension.

Bottom line, as much as we'd like this team to be a playoff team, it's not a significant goal. We're geared up with future draft picks, one of the youngest teams in the league and still competing with the best. What more could you want from a rebuild?

Suns are a treadmill team. Hope yall are ready to enjoy the 9th and 10th seed for the next 3-5 years

Move over Nuggets, we're running the treadmill ship now

[NBA Fiend]

I wonder what the deal is with Tony Mitchell. Seems like the Suns would send him to the D-league if they aren't going to cut him. The Knicks were thinking about using the #24 on him in 2013. At the vey least lets start a petition to get him in the dunk contest with Green.

[JMac1]

If someone wants to trade Warren for Mozgov they are out of their mind. I don't need a long post to say that.

I will add to that. Warren was better than Parker last year and on a far worse team. He was double and triple teamed. This guy could turn out to be OUR guy. I mean, in all likelihood, the only way we achieve premier status is through the draft, and you want to trade this guy for a guy in an effort for the 8 seed?

This.

I expect Warren to be our starting SF from next season on.

This and more this!!! I can't believe Mozgov for Warren, wth?!!! That is absolutely insane!!

[Frank Lee]

The hype for Warren is... unwarranted. Many top scores in college do not transition well to the NBA, even from the all mighty ACC. Don't get me wrong, I am not anti here.... but too many are penciling this guy in as a 20pt scorer soon to be starting all star. The odds say no. Just as they say nay to Goodwin reaching the lofty heights predicted here. These youngsters are all expendable, replaceable, but valuable..

Warren is an asset. The SF slot with us is somewhat up in the air with the possible and likely departure of GGreen, the offensive limitations of Tucker, and the tweener status of CusMo. This is no secret here. But he is an asset who I believe would be sought after in any significant trade. The question is what/who McDo can get for TJ (as part of a package) as RMc has shown no hesitation to pull the trigger. If anyone entertains the thoughts of trading Dragic, Bled etc, you surely have to include Warren and practically everyone else in the mix, especially if McDo is targeting a marquis player.

Its all about asset accumulation. Just take a look at his mentor Ainge and the stockpiling he is doing.

Personally, I think this team is flawed in its design/execution. I attribute this optimistically as a period where the staff has decided to play some players, namely Green and Thomas, in order to enhance their trade value.

[NavLDO]

The hype for Warren is... unwarranted. Many top scores in college do not transition well to the NBA, even from the all mighty ACC. Don't get me wrong, I am not anti here.... but too many are penciling this guy in as a 20pt scorer soon to be starting all star. The odds say no. Just as they say nay to Goodwin reaching the lofty heights predicted here. These youngsters are all expendable, replaceable, but valuable..

Warren is an asset. The SF slot with us is somewhat up in the air with the possible and likely departure of GGreen, the offensive limitations of Tucker, and the tweener status of CusMo. This is no secret here. But he is an asset who I believe would be sought after in any significant trade. The question is what/who McDo can get for TJ (as part of a package) as RMc has shown no hesitation to pull the trigger. If anyone entertains the thoughts of trading Dragic, Bled etc, you surely have to include Warren and practically everyone else in the mix, especially if McDo is targeting a marquis player.

Its all about asset accumulation. Just take a look at his mentor Ainge and the stockpiling he is doing.

Personally, I think this team is flawed in its design/execution. I attribute this optimistically as a period where the staff has decided to play some players, namely Green and Thomas, in order to enhance their trade value.

I don't think many of us here have such lofty expectations of TJ becoming an All-Star. I may have mentioned it once or twice in the past, but that's his ceiling, not his expected status. I think he has the potential to be a solid starter in this league, and at the very least, a better offensive option at SF than PJ. But a 20pt scorer? I can't see that in our offense as it's running now. Probably more in the 15-16 range, which is perfectly fine with EB at 18, Goran at 16, Len at 10, and Kieff at 15.

But yes, TJ is what you said, an asset, but not one to be traded for a middling Center on a bad team. If he's packaged, as I said on the last page, for a Cousins or Drummond-type player, then I think most would be ok with that, but as JMac, Ryu, and bwgood stated, to trade him for Mozgov straight up it's just flat out crazy. If we trade for Mozgov, it should be someone who's already peaked, like Green or IT, or heck, if Warren is ready, even PJ, but not Warren.

[Cutter]

Warren will earn minutes by what he shows in practice and the D-League. The casual fan assumes if a rookie score points during a game, like Archie did last year against Milwaukee, then he should automatically begin getting minutes in actual games. That is not correct. A rookie has to show that he understands the defense and his assignment within the defense. He has to show he knows and understands offensive plays. He has to show that he can play within the flow of the offense, not just out there playing street ball (I'm looking at you Archie). Once you show understanding of NBA speed basketball in practice, you then begin to earn minutes in actual games.

My suspicion is that Archie still struggles to understand the game and his role in the offense and defensive schemes during practice, and only gets minimal minutes in real games where he confirms his lack of understanding. Again, its not how many points you can score, its your understanding of the game that determines when a rookie begins to get minutes.

Same with Warren. If Warren is so great (i really hope he is), why can't he outplay Tucker or Mook? Thats not exactly a high bar he has to reach. My guess is that Warren is lost within the game and is frequently out of position on plays and so has not earned much playing time. Once he shows that he understands scheme during practice and D league he will get regular minutes during real games.

[NavLDO]

Warren will earn minutes by what he shows in practice and the D-League. The casual fan assumes if a rookie score points during a game, like Archie did last year against Milwaukee, then he should automatically begin getting minutes in actual games. That is not correct. A rookie has to show that he understands the defense and his assignment within the defense. He has to show he knows and understands offensive plays. He has to show that he can play within the flow of the offense, not just out there playing street ball (I'm looking at you Archie). Once you show understanding of NBA speed basketball in practice, you then begin to earn minutes in actual games.

My suspicion is that Archie still struggles to understand the game and his role in the offense and defensive schemes during practice, and only gets minimal minutes in real games where he confirms his lack of understanding. Again, its not how many points you can score, its your understanding of the game that determines when a rookie begins to get minutes.

Same with Warren. If Warren is so great (i really hope he is), why can't he outplay Tucker or Mook? Thats not exactly a high bar he has to reach. My guess is that Warren is lost within the game and is frequently out of position on plays and so has not earned much playing time. Once he shows that he understands scheme during practice and D league he will get regular minutes during real games.

All very good points. TJ has only been in the league for just less than half a season. It will take time for him to 'find his groove' on BOTH sides of the court. In his interviews, he comes across as an intelligent young man so I don't feel it will take too long for him to get fully integrated into the team. I think his most pressing weakness will be his defense. If there was one knock on him coming out it was his defense. I know Horny mentioned that he's 'better than advertised' in that department, but the fact of the matter is, his wingspan is not what you'd expect from a 6'8" player, at only around 6'10". An extra inch or two would be nice, but regardless, he's going to have to overcome that somehow. Additionally, IIRC, he had ridiculously low assist numbers in college, so that's an area of his game that he will definitely improve if he's going to get time on the floor. If he can't get integrated into an offense, aside from being a 'catch and shoot' guy exclusively, that might also be hindering his ability to get playing time, which I believe is one of the issues contributing to the bolded part above, Cutter.

And yes, Archie is a whole other story. He was extremely raw coming out; not nearly as polished as TJ Warren, so even though he was drafted a year earlier, I wouldn't be surprised to see Warren get meaningful minutes before Archie does. But if Horny can continue to be patient, Archie is a guy I could see being one of the better SGs in the league. His effort and defense is fine, it's that god-awful shooting stroke and his immaturity that's really holding him back. He's one of those players that probably would have benefitted by staying a couple of more years in college, but I can't argue his reasoning for coming out when he did, as he could very well have been buried on a continually stacked Kentucky team. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't start getting meaningful minutes until the '16/'17 season, but he may need to be ready by next year, with Green and Dragic potentially being lost by start of next season.

[Sunsdeuce]

Report: Samuel Dalembert ‘could be available’ in trade from Knicks dlvr.it/810Bm7

Samuel Dalemert a strong candidate to be waived theknicksblog.com/knicks/samuel-…

[Fo-Real]

Lol... Sam is bad.

[toucansma]

Im sure there are also other players in the League that McD loves, it just depends on who he loves more and if he values winning now over losing now while spending time developing youngsters, because thats what it takes.

I'm gonna take a stab and say he values his younger players much much more. McD got to pick the youngens himself and clearly sees a lot of potential in them (and values them more than the rest of the league). Aside from that, the line from McD has always been "this team is rebuilding" which roughly translates to "I will trade my older guys if I'm getting enough value back".

If you pick a guy and see potential in him, you're not going to trade him because his minutes aren't there. You're going to make minutes for him (usually by trading an older player). But that's not going to happen overnight. McD would rather milk a vet for all the value he's got (see: Dudley4Bled).

A youngen who misses out on consistent minutes for a couple of seasons isn't going to be that worse off, especially when getting D-League minutes. It's also worth noting that McD drafts younger prospects (Ennis 20, Archie 20, TJ 21, Len 21) so you could easily think of it as just a college extension.

Bottom line, as much as we'd like this team to be a playoff team, it's not a significant goal. We're geared up with future draft picks, one of the youngest teams in the league and still competing with the best. What more could you want from a rebuild?

Suns are a treadmill team. Hope yall are ready to enjoy the 9th and 10th seed for the next 3-5 years

Move over Nuggets, we're running the treadmill ship now

I think that is what management's goal is at the present (not 5 years though). That's not a bad thing , and I mean that. I think what they are trying to do is stay competitive (as opposed to the 76ers) so that they can attract FAs and keep the seats filled, while accumulating assets. There is not one way to rebuild in the NBA. I think the Suns will keep gathering assets and internally building players then jump on a FA or trade when the time is right which will help get them to the top 4 in the West. There is a difference between being a young team with talent and being the 8-10th seeds as opposed to the Suns a few years ago being over the hill with no future and the 8-10 seed.

[bwgood77]

Warren will earn minutes by what he shows in practice and the D-League. The casual fan assumes if a rookie score points during a game, like Archie did last year against Milwaukee, then he should automatically begin getting minutes in actual games. That is not correct. A rookie has to show that he understands the defense and his assignment within the defense. He has to show he knows and understands offensive plays. He has to show that he can play within the flow of the offense, not just out there playing street ball (I'm looking at you Archie). Once you show understanding of NBA speed basketball in practice, you then begin to earn minutes in actual games.

My suspicion is that Archie still struggles to understand the game and his role in the offense and defensive schemes during practice, and only gets minimal minutes in real games where he confirms his lack of understanding. Again, its not how many points you can score, its your understanding of the game that determines when a rookie begins to get minutes.

Same with Warren. If Warren is so great (i really hope he is), why can't he outplay Tucker or Mook? Thats not exactly a high bar he has to reach. My guess is that Warren is lost within the game and is frequently out of position on plays and so has not earned much playing time. Once he shows that he understands scheme during practice and D league he will get regular minutes during real games.

Those guys have been battling nba players for 3-4 years. It takes time to adjust. He may not turn into a good player, but giving up on a draft pick with that much skill and potential upside, unless you can get a major difference maker in return, is a bad move. It would be like when the Celtics trading their 10th pick Joe Johnson to us for Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk because they could maybe make the playoffs.

Rookie contracts are valuable. Rookies are rarely going to outplay vets unless they are stars. They normally take a couple of years to get into form. Kieff took a few years. Len is gradually getting there in his second year.

[Barkley_34]

Hey Guys

what do you think of trying something involving Sanders? I think the price is very cheap.

[King4Day]

Hey Guys

what do you think of trying something involving Sanders? I think the price is very cheap.

Tradewise maybe but he's very expensive.
I'd want to know more about why he's being sent home.

[Saberestar]

Even Tony Mitchell is not joining the Suns after being acquired in the Anthony Tolliver trade, the Suns have not waived Mitchell in case his guaranteed salary slot is useful in a trade.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/n ... /21213007/

Interesting.......

[Sunsdeuce]

Man kyrie Irving has falling off the planet. He isn't playing very good. Cleveland is rip for a trade. Bledsoe/plumlee/pick for love.

[thamadkant]

Warren will earn minutes by what he shows in practice and the D-League. The casual fan assumes if a rookie score points during a game, like Archie did last year against Milwaukee, then he should automatically begin getting minutes in actual games. That is not correct. A rookie has to show that he understands the defense and his assignment within the defense. He has to show he knows and understands offensive plays. He has to show that he can play within the flow of the offense, not just out there playing street ball (I'm looking at you Archie). Once you show understanding of NBA speed basketball in practice, you then begin to earn minutes in actual games.

My suspicion is that Archie still struggles to understand the game and his role in the offense and defensive schemes during practice, and only gets minimal minutes in real games where he confirms his lack of understanding. Again, its not how many points you can score, its your understanding of the game that determines when a rookie begins to get minutes.

Same with Warren. If Warren is so great (i really hope he is), why can't he outplay Tucker or Mook? Thats not exactly a high bar he has to reach. My guess is that Warren is lost within the game and is frequently out of position on plays and so has not earned much playing time. Once he shows that he understands scheme during practice and D league he will get regular minutes during real games.

Its not that simple as in black and white..

Look at Shabazz getting big minutes and producing.
But when Martin, Brewer was there he wouldnt get minutes at all... Brewer is much better in defense and in basketball experience so the coach will always put him on the court... do you actually expect a young guy like Shabazz would outplay a veteran defensive sieve like Brewer?

Goodwin, Ennis would rarely if ever outplay Dragic, Bledsoe, Green, Tucker on the court... because those guys are set. They get the plays, they make the rookies, young guys look bad or simply just like rookies on the court. One day when Dragic, Thomas and Bledsoe have declined the rookies behind them would start looking good.

Even Wiggins and Jabari Parker would struggle to get minutes on the Suns, simply because their are 1-2 players head of them who are much proficient NOW, someone who can get the job done NOW.... If Suns had Grant Hill, Jason Richardson or Marion.. do you guys thing Tucker, Green, Marcus Morris would get 20+ minutes? HELL NO.... because simple the coach WANTS the best scenario which is the WIN....

But a team who doesnt really care so much about WINS NOW.. would sacrifice proficiency and efficiency and play rookies... Win or Lose the coach and the GM doesnt care as much except for the development of the youth.. just like Wolves, 76ers now... they want to win of course, but their main reporting to the GM and their bosses is the progress of the players.

Its like imagine a player like Westbrook or Bryant... playing behind Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr.... Phil wouldnt play them if only 2-3 minutes here and there... because even though they are better than Kerr, Harper etc... they would show lack of proficiency and knowledge of the system.

I use to play basketlall state level and the main 10 guy rotation would get minutes against each other... the coach will balance the teams out obviously... the new young guys would be sitting or shooting free throws or 3pt shots or jump shots on the other court with a trainer or 2. I was playing ahead of a player 3 years younger than I was who was a heck of a lot better than I was, but on the court and during a game where the Xs and Os matter, he simply lacked the experience with the main guys.


The only way to get confidence is when a young player gets to score, defend, play against another opponent under pressure.. under an environment where there is a consequence for every good and bad play.


TLDR: Veteran players will always hold/limit development of the players that sit behind them on the rotation. In-game experience is worth 100x practice/training where there is little to zero consequences and pressure.

[letsgosuns]

I would trade trade the Morris brothers and Isaiah Thomas for Chris Bosh. It works financially. I think the trade benefits both teams as well. The Suns get the star player they want and the Heat get players that add a lot of scoring to their team who are all 25 years old. Both teams benefit.

Suns new starting lineup and depth chart:

Bledsoe/Ennis/Goodwin
Dragic/Green/Goodwin
Tucker/Warren/Green
Bosh/Randolph
Len/Plumlee

The Suns frontcourt legitimacy changes dramatically with that trade. A proven champion in Bosh who can play inside and stretch the floor. You can throw the ball to him and he can score in crunch time. No more Bledsoe or Dragic running the shot clock down to zero and throwing up a terrible shot at the end of games like has happened so many times this season. This trade could elevate the Suns to contending status. Len and Bosh together could compete with any frontcourt in the league.

I know Bosh is already thirty and is signed for five years but I think he will be productive for at least the length of his contract. He is frankly just on a different level than the Morris brothers. The Suns are so young and need a veteran presence on the team. I would love to see Len and Bosh together. I think they could dominate.

[thamadkant]

I would trade trade the Morris brothers and Isaiah Thomas for Chris Bosh. It works financially. I think the trade benefits both teams as well. The Suns get the star player they want and the Heat get players that add a lot of scoring to their team who are all 25 years old. Both teams benefit.

Suns new starting lineup and depth chart:

Bledsoe/Ennis/Goodwin
Dragic/Green/Goodwin
Tucker/Warren/Green
Bosh/Randolph
Len/Plumlee

The Suns frontcourt legitimacy changes dramatically with that trade. A proven champion in Bosh who can play inside and stretch the floor. You can throw the ball to him and he can score in crunch time. No more Bledsoe or Dragic running the shot clock down to zero and throwing up a terrible shot at the end of games like has happened so many times this season. This trade could elevate the Suns to contending status. Len and Bosh together could compete with any frontcourt in the league.

I know Bosh is already thirty and is signed for five years but I think he will be productive for at least the length of his contract. He is frankly just on a different level than the Morris brothers. The Suns are so young and need a veteran presence on the team. I would love to see Len and Bosh together. I think they could dominate.

yeah, i think a few people already proposed that and its a good solution.
But McD may be holding out for someone better? we dunno.
Also Heat would probably hesitate since they still have Wade and Deng etc... also apparently Bosh owns a lot of investment properties in Miami so he may want to stay there.