NBA ChoK16 - the Rich Cho Thread

[yosemiteben]

He designed an offensive and defensive scheme around players that have not been healthy and a roster that has been in flux all season. Let's at least let this season play out before we decide he was a bad hire.

I disagree. Not so much about your 'wait and see' but rather the notion that he designed an offensive and defensive scheme around the players he has. It's abundantly clear that Cliff is a system coach that needs a certain roster to make things work. He's pretty much the opposite of someone like Rick Carlisle.

Last season we had an elite defense that was definitely designed to address Al's weaknesses. You really disagree with that?

You really don't think he designed an offense around Al? Like, really?

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

He designed an offensive and defensive scheme around players that have not been healthy and a roster that has been in flux all season. Let's at least let this season play out before we decide he was a bad hire.

I disagree. Not so much about your 'wait and see' but rather the notion that he designed an offensive and defensive scheme around the players he has. It's abundantly clear that Cliff is a system coach that needs a certain roster to make things work. He's pretty much the opposite of someone like Rick Carlisle.

Last season we had an elite defense that was definitely designed to address Al's weaknesses. You really disagree with that?

You really don't think he designed an offense around Al? Like, really?

It's clear that his offense is just a basic version of Orlando's old scheme which was designed around a big man surrounded by perimeter players. I'm not going to give him any real credit for that.

Defense ... I'll be honest I'm on less firm ground here, but it's not even clear to me that he really designed that defense for Al. I'll agree that he tweaked it for this team and that he seems to be on much firmer ground here than on offense, but I'm really hesitant to give him "designed" credit. More like adapted. It's also really clear to me that the defense didn't carry over to this year with different personnel, so even if he did "design" it then it was for last years guys and he failed to adapt to changes to this years squad which only reinforces my point IMHO.

But this is really the Cho thread and not the Cliff thread. In regards to Cho & Cliff I'm just strongly realistic that if Cho goes that Cliff will too within a year. OTOH I could see Cho firing Cliff after this year if there is internal agreement that some of the things I see as problems really are an issue to them.

[W_HAMILTON]

Last season we had an elite defense that was definitely designed to address Al's weaknesses. You really disagree with that?

You really don't think he designed an offense around Al? Like, really?

I think to say he "designed an offense around Al" is a bit much. We don't really have an offense designed around Al -- we have an offense where we give Al the ball a lot.

It's like saying Clifford designs our end-of-game plays around Walker, when in all actuality, it just seems more like we give Walker the ball and let him figure out what to do with it.

I don't think there's much "design" at all when it comes to our offense. I think the fact that we have to rely so heavily on Al (in non-crunch time situations) and Walker (in crunch-time situations) is just a by-product of us NOT having a better designed system.

[yosemiteben]

So then we should fully expect to see Clifford use the same offensive scheme and try to run the offense through our other bigs, right?

He has an elite offensive big man. Him running the offensive through him wasn't just because when he was an assistant five years ago he saw it done the same way.

[MasterIchiro]

Despite needing shooting for the past 3-4 years, this is Cho's result

Neal - .301
M. Williams - .357
Roberts - .358
Hairston - .290

That's why I'm holding him accountable for passing on K. Thompson, Beal and McLemore.

His inability to secure shooting talent spans multiple years, multiple players and multiple drafts, trade deadlines and free agencies.

[catch20two]

Despite needing shooting for the past 3-4 years, this is Cho's result

Neal - .301
M. Williams - .357
Roberts - .358
Hairston - .290

That's why I'm holding him accountable for passing on K. Thompson, Beal and McLemore.

His inability to secure shooting talent spans multiple years, multiple players and multiple drafts, trade deadlines and free agencies.

Shoulda did everything in his power to get Anthony Morrow this offseason. Or maybe he thought Cliff's system could make average to subpar 3pt shooters good ones like it did with McBob, Tolliver, and CDR. Either way we did a poor job of gathering talent that they knew would give us results.

[MasterIchiro]

There is no excuse for it. "He tried" is not good enough. It's about results. As far as shooting goes, he's way behind other GM's.

[thruthefire]

He also drafted Jeff Taylor (42% as a senior) to be a 3&D guy, but that hasn't translated at all to the pros.

[fatlever]

some of it has to fall on the coaches. for example, if hendo played for the spurs, he'd get benched if he didnt sit in the corner and take open corner 3s. percentage wise, hendo is a solid 3pt shooter from the short corner. problem is, he rarely is in good position to take them and even when he is open he frequently passes them up.

our coaches have allowed hendo to get away with his habit of passing up open 3s for long 2s for 5+ years.

[MasterIchiro]

I don't care how wide open Hendo is or MKG. Teams have decided to ignore both of them on the perimeter. These are Cho's wings of choice. He went all in for both. He gave Hendo 3 years and drafted MKG 2nd overall.

And they are both players teams can completely ignore on the perimeter.

Meanwhile the game has shifted more towards spacing out the floor.

Cho fell behind and couldn't catch up this offseason as Utah saw the value in Hayward, the Warriors gave a max to Klay and the Magic wanted more for Afflalo. These are just some examples of how falling behind can put you in a position where you have low probability to secure a target and the problem is compounded by the fact you have nobody to fall back on if you miss your target. Yet still, when you had a chance to recover for your miscalculation you talk down the owner on McLemore and take another player who can be ignored on the 3 pt line. So it's Kemba at the 3 pt line and ignore the rest of Cho's starters. So he marches in a band of bench "shooters" Neal, Roberts and Marv and they're all budget, second-rate shooters who do nothing else and are negatives in all other areas. But yeah, "Kemba needs to drive into the paint more".

I would fire him yesterday if I were MJ.

[MasterIchiro]

The only way you could assemble a more pathetic collection of 3 point shooters is if you TRY as the 76'ers have, the only team worse than Charlotte in 3 pointers.

[catch20two]

The only way you could assemble a more pathetic collection of 3 point shooters is if you TRY as the 76'ers have, the only team worse than Charlotte in 3 pointers.

It's the most pathetic sorry excuse of a group of perimeter shooters I have ever watched from a NBA team on a consistent basis. I'm more willing to attempt and make deep 3s in a pickup game on cracked concrete than these clowns who just pump fake and dribble into the defender for a harder shot because they know they can't shoot.

[MasterIchiro]

The only way you could assemble a more pathetic collection of 3 point shooters is if you TRY as the 76'ers have, the only team worse than Charlotte in 3 pointers.

It's the most pathetic sorry excuse of a group of perimeter shooters I have ever watched from a NBA team on a consistent basis. I'm more willing to attempt and make deep 3s in a pickup game on cracked concrete than these clowns who just pump fake and dribble into the defender for a harder shot because they know they can't shoot.

The only dumber office is Sacramento. Like Cho, they're well aware of the trends and directions taken by other GM's, but they think they're smarter and try to buck trends thinking everyone else is dumb. It's a very elitist way of thinking and you end up with rosters that don't fit. The Kings have always underperformed their talent. Now you have them toying with the idea of playing 4 on 5 while leaving a cherry picker at mid court. Just because nobody else thought of it, doesn't make you clever. In fact, nobody else thought of it for a reason. Just like nobody would commit to athletes who can't shoot at the 2, 3 and 4 and can basically be entirely ignored at a time when other GM's were coveting and stockpiling perimeter threats. You can't take your eye off them for one second, not even the bench guys on these teams. I bet Cho thought the market was overlooking Biz, MKG, Hendo and Cody. He thought he was getting a great bargain on all of them. He thought he had identified some market inefficiency.

[catch20two]

The only way you could assemble a more pathetic collection of 3 point shooters is if you TRY as the 76'ers have, the only team worse than Charlotte in 3 pointers.

It's the most pathetic sorry excuse of a group of perimeter shooters I have ever watched from a NBA team on a consistent basis. I'm more willing to attempt and make deep 3s in a pickup game on cracked concrete than these clowns who just pump fake and dribble into the defender for a harder shot because they know they can't shoot.

The only dumber office is Sacramento. Like Cho, they're well aware of the trends and directions taken by other GM's, but they think they're smarter and try to buck trends thinking everyone else is dumb. It's a very elitist way of thinking and you end up with rosters that don't fit. The Kings have always underperformed their talent. Now you have them toying with the idea of playing 4 on 5 while leaving a cherry picker at mid court. Just because nobody else thought of it, doesn't make you clever. In fact, nobody else thought of it for a reason. Just like nobody would commit to athletes who can't shoot at the 2, 3 and 4 and can basically be entirely ignored at a time when other GM's were coveting and stockpiling perimeter threats. You can't take your eye off them for one second, not even the bench guys on these teams. I bet Cho thought the market was overlooking Biz, MKG, Hendo and Cody. He thought he was getting a great bargain on all of them. He thought he had identified some market inefficiency.

Lol. I'm surprised you consider the Kings a dumb front office after drafting back to back players to your liking that can make 3s in Mclemore and Stauskas but I get the gist. Cho do try to outsmart the mass by taking athletes instead of skilled players. The MKG pick wasn't that bad and I'd say not bad at all but we did a very very very poor job of developing him by shorting his confidence and making his jumper worse in the NBA than it was in high school before his improvement this year.

[MasterIchiro]

It's the most pathetic sorry excuse of a group of perimeter shooters I have ever watched from a NBA team on a consistent basis. I'm more willing to attempt and make deep 3s in a pickup game on cracked concrete than these clowns who just pump fake and dribble into the defender for a harder shot because they know they can't shoot.

The only dumber office is Sacramento. Like Cho, they're well aware of the trends and directions taken by other GM's, but they think they're smarter and try to buck trends thinking everyone else is dumb. It's a very elitist way of thinking and you end up with rosters that don't fit. The Kings have always underperformed their talent. Now you have them toying with the idea of playing 4 on 5 while leaving a cherry picker at mid court. Just because nobody else thought of it, doesn't make you clever. In fact, nobody else thought of it for a reason. Just like nobody would commit to athletes who can't shoot at the 2, 3 and 4 and can basically be entirely ignored at a time when other GM's were coveting and stockpiling perimeter threats. You can't take your eye off them for one second, not even the bench guys on these teams. I bet Cho thought the market was overlooking Biz, MKG, Hendo and Cody. He thought he was getting a great bargain on all of them. He thought he had identified some market inefficiency.

Lol. I'm surprised you consider the Kings a dumb front office after drafting back to back players to your liking that can make 3s in Mclemore and Stauskas but I get the gist. Cho do try to outsmart the mass by taking athletes instead of skilled players. The MKG pick wasn't that bad and I'd say not bad at all but we did a very very very poor job of developing him by shorting his confidence and making his jumper worse in the NBA than it was in high school before his improvement this year.

They kind of took the shooting thing to the other extreme the past couple years when they realized they had fallen behind with spacing. But I would rather double down on shooters/skilled players than athletes who can be ignored on the perimeter. The league is bulldozing this roster. Make no mistake though, the Kings fell behind.

[yosemiteben]

There is no excuse for it. "He tried" is not good enough. It's about results. As far as shooting goes, he's way behind other GM's.

So if last summer he traded for Afflalo like you've been begging for and Afflalo came in and shot 34% like he has this year, that would be on Cho?

[catch20two]

The only dumber office is Sacramento. Like Cho, they're well aware of the trends and directions taken by other GM's, but they think they're smarter and try to buck trends thinking everyone else is dumb. It's a very elitist way of thinking and you end up with rosters that don't fit. The Kings have always underperformed their talent. Now you have them toying with the idea of playing 4 on 5 while leaving a cherry picker at mid court. Just because nobody else thought of it, doesn't make you clever. In fact, nobody else thought of it for a reason. Just like nobody would commit to athletes who can't shoot at the 2, 3 and 4 and can basically be entirely ignored at a time when other GM's were coveting and stockpiling perimeter threats. You can't take your eye off them for one second, not even the bench guys on these teams. I bet Cho thought the market was overlooking Biz, MKG, Hendo and Cody. He thought he was getting a great bargain on all of them. He thought he had identified some market inefficiency.

Lol. I'm surprised you consider the Kings a dumb front office after drafting back to back players to your liking that can make 3s in Mclemore and Stauskas but I get the gist. Cho do try to outsmart the mass by taking athletes instead of skilled players. The MKG pick wasn't that bad and I'd say not bad at all but we did a very very very poor job of developing him by shorting his confidence and making his jumper worse in the NBA than it was in high school before his improvement this year.

They kind of took the shooting thing to the other extreme the past couple years when they realized they had fallen behind with spacing. But I would rather double down on shooters/skilled players than athletes who can be ignored on the perimeter. The league is bulldozing this roster. Make no mistake though, the Kings fell behind.

The Kings lack toughness and leadership. Outside of that they have a top half of league talented team. They put their heads down the very moment things aren't looking up. That's their problem.

Us on the other hand, we're not that talented but we have competitors in Kemba, MKG, Zeller, and Biz that'll hustle for every loose ball and fight to the end. At some point we need to add another legit scoring option other than Kemba to that core.

[catch20two]

There is no excuse for it. "He tried" is not good enough. It's about results. As far as shooting goes, he's way behind other GM's.

No if last summer he traded for Afflalo like you've been begging for and Afflalo came in and shot 34% like he has this year, that would be on Cho?

Afflalo is overrated. I didn't want him unless it was strictly a swap for Hendo and maybe a late pick included.

[yosemiteben]

There is no excuse for it. "He tried" is not good enough. It's about results. As far as shooting goes, he's way behind other GM's.

No if last summer he traded for Afflalo like you've been begging for and Afflalo came in and shot 34% like he has this year, that would be on Cho?

Afflalo is overrated. I didn't want him unless it was strictly a swap for Hendo and maybe a late pick included.

The point is when your GM consistently acquires pieces that have demonstrated three point shooting ability, saying that it's his fault when they struggle to integrate and then continuing to argue that the GM doesn't understand the value of perimeter shooting is a bad argument. He was the one that brought in Tolliver, CDR and McRoberts in the first place. He signed a bunch of guys with perimeter shooting ability this offseason. Nothing about that says he doesn't get the value of perimeter shooting.

[Eoghan]

Cho is probably the best GM in franchise (new) history. He just shouldn't be allowed near a draft board.