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Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1581 » by Sprewell4Three » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:48 pm

R-DAWG wrote:But the stretch for Jose is almost double the stretch for JR/Felton combined. Also, could have gotten value for Shumpert and Tyson



Shumpert was awful after his hot start on top of that he had a bum shoulder , on top of that he's a FA after this season. Now tell me what team would be dumb enough to give anything of value for a player like him. Are you working in the FO? How do you know a better deal was available? How ? stop speculating with your nonsense dude. It's getting freaking old.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1582 » by R-DAWG » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:49 pm

PMFJB wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
PMFJB wrote:Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?


Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

Thank you. But can't we sign our pick AFTER we sign our free agents thus giving us and extra 3.7 million?


yes, but a hold still counts against the cap. Not sure the exact number. Also, Acy and Cole can be off the books and I think Cole has a larger cap hold.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1583 » by moocow007 » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:50 pm

KNIXFAN_83 wrote:
R-DAWG wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
That is correct. If the Knicks were rebuilding (and there's real valid arguments for them to do so) the first thing would be to trade Carmelo Anthony. But it's pretty clear whether it's by Jackson or Dolan that they are building around him.


And the only reason I'm ok with this is because we still owe compensation for him. Having said that I'm very curious as to what the Bulls offer would have been in a S/T. Mirtoic + Butler + 1-2 1st rd picks? I'd be pretty pumped having Mirtic, Butler, and a top 5 pick along with a ton of cap space this summer.

Haven't we learned nothing from 2010. Your not going to attract stars if you don't have one. Trading Melo after gutting the team is ridiculous. We need Melo and always did. We just never put him in a winning situation because we are constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul. Now we are potentially looking at a 1st overall pick. Phil Jackson as a recruiter in NY. Melo shutting it down and resting for next year. 30+ million in cap space for one of the biggest free agent classes. We weren't going to win this year anyway. This is a smart move and move that this organization has avoided for years. I can't see a player some what intrigued to potentially play in NY with Phil, Melo, 1st overall pick, and 30 million in money to build a team in a weak eastern conference. That's pretty good plan honestly.


I think he's talking about a true rebuild. You take the young players you'd get for Anthony, add someone like Okafor and then sign someone like Butler or Dragic or whomever and you build from there. Yes, they won't have their own 1st round pick in 2016 but with young willing guys you can build for the future.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1584 » by Bklyn&company » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:51 pm

:oops:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
PMFJB wrote:Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?


Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

The actually cap will be slightly more than this... im saying $68 -70 million (stretching)... just my guess from reading interview articles from those who will determine if we stretch TV dollars out....don't shoot.

Thanks for the info...
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1585 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:52 pm

Could we do Dragic, Wes Matthews, Thad Young, Afflalo and R. Lopez with the cap space we anticipate having (assume that we can trade Calderon for an expiring)?

Melo
Thad Young
R. Lopez
Matthews
Dragic
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1586 » by SelbyCobra » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:52 pm

god shammgod wrote:i said that was phil's plan before the season. once it went to sh*t he decided to adjust i guess.

you know what though, i hope for the best. i don't care about being right or wrong or anything. i just want the knicks to be good. i just don't feel great about all of this.


Isn't the bolded a huge positive in all this? To me it is. He wanted to try and rebuild on the fly, both team play and team dynamics, and it flat out didn't work. The players sucked both on-court and were not making meaningful strides "off" it. He recognized the need for a much deeper and more thorough cleanse, so he did something that the Knicks have never been known for: adjusted.

Changing the plan to ride it all the way to the bottom doesn't make me that upset, regardless of how the moves stack up over the past few months. Could they hurt, sure, but the net loss due to the adjustment is relatively minimal in the grand scheme.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1587 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:54 pm

My big concern at this point is whether Fish is up for the job.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1588 » by R-DAWG » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:54 pm

Sprewell4Three wrote:
R-DAWG wrote:But the stretch for Jose is almost double the stretch for JR/Felton combined. Also, could have gotten value for Shumpert and Tyson



Shumpert was awful after his hot start on top of that he had a bum shoulder , on top of that he's a FA after this season. Now tell me what team would be dumb enough to give anything of value for a player like him. Are you working in the FO? How do you know a better deal was available? How ? stop speculating with your nonsense dude. It's getting freaking old.


we could have gotten a first round pick for Shumpert last June. We declined. That may have been a mistake.

Also, we would have been in better shape letting Chandler expire and stretching Felton than having Calderon's contract. Source: Math
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1589 » by Jeffrey » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:54 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:Could we do Dragic, Wes Matthews, Thad Young, Afflalo and R. Lopez with the cap space we anticipate having (assume that we can trade Calderon for an expiring)?

Melo
Thad Young
R. Lopez
Matthews
Dragic


And what kind of money are you doling out for them?

Whatever price you think you can get Robin Lopez for, add 2 million dollars just because he is a 7 footer.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1590 » by god shammgod » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:55 pm

Rasho Brezec wrote:Kosmovitelli dropping the knowledge like usual.


the sig :lol: . i might have to follow your lead.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1591 » by Deeeez Knicks » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:55 pm

Bklyn&company wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
PMFJB wrote:Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?


Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

The actually cap will be slightly more than this... im saying $68 -70 million (stretching)... just my guess from reading interview articles from those who will determine if we stretch TV dollars out....don't shoot.


Yeah, it sounds like it may go up a bit and that would be nice. We should be able to add 2-3 impact free agents AND a top pick. Cole, Thanasis, Cleanthony, Timmy might be a decent bench group (maybe Acy if we keep him).

We can improve a lot next year.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1592 » by K_ick_God » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:55 pm

Why does it matter whether you trade a pick or just use it on someone bad?

Knicks wasted a pick on Bargs, that much is very clear, but they also wasted a pick on lots of guys whom they drafted. Is there a difference really? Not so much.

The Bulls rarely trade their picks. But they wasted plenty of them. Tyrus Thomas, Snell, Teague, James Johnson, very possibly McDermott. In a way Rose may end up being a wasted top pick because of lady luck. Done at age 26/27 would be a disaster, and after they gave him a big deal. They may be "forced" to also give Jimmy Butler a big deal and he is a guy who has just had one offensive year above decency (granted it's way above so far). Butler as a good defender and shaky scorer at $17M would be bad. He's not assured of staying James Harden on O. He could become Avery Bradley at $17M. In a way that too would be "good picks gone bad" in a PG kind of way.

What I'm saying is it's hit & miss. Just accept that. We may swing and miss this year too with a top 4 pick and you can blame Phil -- and you will blame Phil -- but it's kind of like blaming a couple of dice.

Someone explain the double standards and uncritical thinking running rampant. Actually don't.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1593 » by Sprewell4Three » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:56 pm

SelbyCobra wrote:
god shammgod wrote:i said that was phil's plan before the season. once it went to sh*t he decided to adjust i guess.

you know what though, i hope for the best. i don't care about being right or wrong or anything. i just want the knicks to be good. i just don't feel great about all of this.


Isn't the bolded a huge positive in all this? To me it is. He wanted to try and rebuild on the fly, both team play and team dynamics, and it flat out didn't work. The players sucked both on-court and were not making meaningful strides "off" it. He recognized the need for a much deeper and more thorough cleanse, so he did something that the Knicks have never been known for: adjusted.

Changing the plan to ride it all the way to the bottom doesn't make me that upset, regardless of how the moves stack up over the past few months. Could they hurt, sure, but the net loss due to the adjustment is relatively minimal in the grand scheme.


godshamgod is mad that Phil was able to change his plans on the fly and prepare for next season. I would hate if the team was bad then the GM compound the situation by adding more bloated contracts to try to appease fans and get an 8th seed. But Phil didn't do that yet fans are irate?
Some people here have absolutely no logic.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1594 » by PMFJB » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:56 pm

If we luck into Okafor. Pay Dragic 12-13 million (only free agent I see actually coming here) and then pay matthews 10-11 then our situation doesn't look as dire.

Okafor
???
Melo
Matthews
Dragic

Bench
Early,THJR,Calderon.

Which would mean unless Okafor is the next Ducan we are not winning crap next year. And I think we played our cap space card.
Because how much more realistically would we have to spend in 2016?

This all hinges in who we get in the draft and how good he is. SMH.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1595 » by KnicksScholar24 » Tue Jan 6, 2015 5:58 pm

The Cavs were able to get a first round pick, but the Knicks only end up getting a second round pick? :noway:

Oh well, at least JR Smith is off the books for THIS off-season. Next up, Jose Calderon. Phil Jackson also traded Shumpert away at his lowest value, if not, NY would have been able to get more than scrubs and a second round pick.

Hopefully the scrub package NY received are all expiring contracts. I'll have to check out the contracts later.

The Knicks gave up the most talent, but received no first round picks... or Waiters? (Rather have the pick than Waiters, though) :nonono:

The good news: Hardaway Jr & Early will have more PT to develop with Shumpert & Smith gone.

Still think NY should have tried to get their 2016 first round pick back, because their going to suck for a while, if they can't retool through next free agency.

Sidenote: I seems like the Cavs are stock piling talent, like the Mavs. Ironically, NY with the second highest payroll, only has Carmelo, old PG, and scrubs. I guess, it's best for taking.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1596 » by Anotha Knicks fan » Tue Jan 6, 2015 6:00 pm

PMFJB wrote:
Anotha Knicks fan wrote:Dammit, I really wanted to get through the whole thread before responding, but I can't! Lol

Just want to say, those of you drawing the line in the sand at this free agency are only perpetuating the same crap we've gone through over and over again. Point is, if we can't get the targets we are aiming for, then you sign a couple of harmless short contracts, and try again the following year. There's no need to overpay some second rate player just because the NY pressure is telling you to do so.

At the very least we will have Melo and the rook next year. Only hoodwinking being done is by your damn selves if you think anyone can turn this mess of a franchise around in a season and change.

I think we all agree on that. Don't overpay BUT when you have a superstar you promised you would get help to and an impatient owner then you don't think it is free agency or bust?

Phil is trying to get better this offseason come hell or high water. If the top free agents shun us then he is going to be left overpaying for people. That is my biggest fear.

If he stands pat after missing out on free agency what does he tell Melo/Dolan? Then we go into 2015 being terrible again and not having our pick. Not a good place to be.

If Phil strikes out in free agency, (and by striking out I dont mean not netting us that golden goose egg of an agent (LMA, MG, etc) but not netting some other fit at a decent price) then he stocks up on young talent as he has been doing, and goes to bat again the following season) The difference between last year and this year is that now he can truly say that we are developing instead of catching the lot of you with this "compete now" double speak that all GMs do. The shine next year will be that we have the main cog on the roster (Melo) and an unbelievable draft pick (whoever it may be) plus some young assets on his side.

My main point is having the flexibility to strike when the opportunity is there, and not necessarily go all in with a losing hand as Walsh did (thanks R-DAWG for the correction)

As for Melo, honestly we don't owe him anything. He got his. He's playing for the team he wanted to play for, and is getting paid handsomely. It's a decision he made. I'm sure Phil painted the picture of a possible rebuild, and how this would affect his career. The fact that Melo is getting older and is "wasting his prime years" shouldn't bear any weight in how Phil makes his subsequent moves. He works for the NEW YORK KNICKS, not the NY Melos. He likes it, great, he can sit down with his shoulder/knee whatever injury he claims, and waits until Phil has the pieces he seems fit to run with. He doesn't, then I am sure the Bulls, Lakers, Clippers, etc of that time will put their bids in, and Phil or whoever is in charge will take the best offer (hopefully) that helps the team.

Flexibility.

I'm in no rush. Why rush it? We've been through a decade plus of rushing it by adding has beens, broken downs, on the whim of what may or may not be great.We actually have a chance to get either a once in a generation type of player, or a solid player, or even a bust... but we still have cap, and we still have the Melo chip. Why go all in when you don't have to.

Don't get me wrong, I did a backflip when the reports first said we got Reggie. When I found out we didn't, I looked into the trade a little further. Understand, initially I was a bit bummed because we didn't get anything of immediate value, but that feeling subsided when the reality of trading away JR, his contract, and all the other cap implications Shump's RFA status hit. Really, Shump hasn't been playing well for the past few seasons. Why wager on his health and what he could be, whne you could have a clean slate? If he's the cost of losing JR, then so be it. Good riddance.

As for the stretch provisioners **** on the trade because we have Calderon, can't we do the same with him? Or was that provision only made for the JRs of the world?
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1597 » by KnicksScholar24 » Tue Jan 6, 2015 6:01 pm

KnicksGod wrote:The Bulls rarely trade their picks. But they wasted plenty of them. Tyrus Thomas, Snell, Teague, James Johnson, very possibly McDermott. In a way Rose may end up being a wasted top pick because of lady luck. Done at age 24 would be a disaster, and after they gave him a big deal. They may be "forced" to also give Jimmy Butler a big deal and he is a guy who has just had one offensive year above decency (granted it's way above so far). Butler as a good defender and shaky scorer at $17M would be bad. He's not assured of staying James Harden on O. He could become Avery Bradley at $17M. In a way that too would be "good picks gone bad" in a PG kind of way.


How did the Bulls wasted their picks? Because those players didn't turn out to be perennial all-stars?
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1598 » by Sprewell4Three » Tue Jan 6, 2015 6:01 pm

KnicksGod wrote:Why does it matter whether you trade a pick or just use it on someone bad?

Knicks wasted a pick on Bargs, that much is very clear, but they also wasted a pick on lots of guys whom they drafted. Is there a difference really? Not so much.

The Bulls rarely trade their picks. But they wasted plenty of them. Tyrus Thomas, Snell, Teague, James Johnson, very possibly McDermott. In a way Rose may end up being a wasted top pick because of lady luck. Done at age 24 would be a disaster, and after they gave him a big deal. They may be "forced" to also give Jimmy Butler a big deal and he is a guy who has just had one offensive year above decency (granted it's way above so far). Butler as a good defender and shaky scorer at $17M would be bad. He's not assured of staying James Harden on O. He could become Avery Bradley at $17M. In a way that too would be "good picks gone bad" in a PG kind of way.

What I'm saying is it's hit & miss. Just accept that. We may swing and miss this year too with a top 4 pick and you can blame Phil -- and you will blame Phil -- but it's kind of like blaming a couple of dice.

Someone explain the double standards and uncritical thinking running rampant. Actually don't.


I don't know how it's gotten to this point where Knicks fans want our GM to make perfect trades each and every time? I mean, GMs all around the league make moves that don't work out. Why is it that all of a sudden Knicks fans have this brovado that they expect excellence in each an every transaction? I can understand if we're the Spurs but we're not. This team has gone damn near 15years being a POS but yet there's fans that talk with their chests in the air. Seriously I just laugh at some of these m'fers on this board.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1599 » by KNIXFAN_83 » Tue Jan 6, 2015 6:03 pm

moocow007 wrote:
KNIXFAN_83 wrote:
R-DAWG wrote:
And the only reason I'm ok with this is because we still owe compensation for him. Having said that I'm very curious as to what the Bulls offer would have been in a S/T. Mirtoic + Butler + 1-2 1st rd picks? I'd be pretty pumped having Mirtic, Butler, and a top 5 pick along with a ton of cap space this summer.

Haven't we learned nothing from 2010. Your not going to attract stars if you don't have one. Trading Melo after gutting the team is ridiculous. We need Melo and always did. We just never put him in a winning situation because we are constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul. Now we are potentially looking at a 1st overall pick. Phil Jackson as a recruiter in NY. Melo shutting it down and resting for next year. 30+ million in cap space for one of the biggest free agent classes. We weren't going to win this year anyway. This is a smart move and move that this organization has avoided for years. I can't see a player some what intrigued to potentially play in NY with Phil, Melo, 1st overall pick, and 30 million in money to build a team in a weak eastern conference. That's pretty good plan honestly.


I think he's talking about a true rebuild. You take the young players you'd get for Anthony, add someone like Okafor and then sign someone like Butler or Dragic or whomever and you build from there. Yes, they won't have their own 1st round pick in 2016 but with young willing guys you can build for the future.


But you don't need to go through those growing pains with a young team because then you look at the Thunder. They had a young team and developed talent but now can't afford it. They have only kept kd and russ. They loss Harden and are going to lose Jackson. At least with Melo he's proven and now we are potentially in place to get a first pick. This is actually the best situation going forward. Knicks finally learned to press the reset button and start from level one. only think is now we have 100 lives to beat all 9 boards instead 3 lives year in year out.
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Re: Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE) 

Post#1600 » by Anotha Knicks fan » Tue Jan 6, 2015 6:04 pm

moocow007 wrote:
Anotha Knicks fan wrote:Dammit, I really wanted to get through the whole thread before responding, but I can't! Lol

Just want to say, those of you drawing the line in the sand at this free agency are only perpetuating the same crap we've gone through over and over again. Point is, if we can't get the targets we are aiming for, then you sign a couple of harmless short contracts, and try again the following year. There's no need to overpay some second rate player just because the NY pressure is telling you to do so.

At the very least we will have Melo and the rook next year. Only hoodwinking being done is by your damn selves if you think anyone can turn this mess of a franchise around in a season and change.


If Carmelo Anthony gets bitten by one of the Cullen's then I agree. We can keep trying.

Moo, just started drinking my coffee (still on vacation) what do you mean by this?
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