Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[Sprewell4Three]

Phil saw last year and saw we were really close to the playoffs. Saw how horrible Felton was and how Tyson mailed it in last year. Watch Dallas and saw Calderon and Dally as two starters playing in the playoffs. He thought that if I replace Felton and Tyson with Calderon and Dally that our win total would increase and we would be in the playoffs. From early reports he thought that Bargs would be able to play half way decent in this system. So those three things in his mind would increase our win total and get us in the playoffs.

That clearly didn't happen....

So instead of compounding the mistake/gamble by trading our expiring contract (Bargs and Amare) for players like Stevenson or Gordon to correct the mistake and get the team in the playoffs he is changing his plan and sell off these players and plan on rebuilding around Melo, top 30 pick and around 30 million dollar in cap space. Then in 2016 when Calderon comes off the books and the cap goes up make a run at another top player.

Next year I would love to see a line-up like

Calderon
Danny Green
Melo
Okafor/Towns
Asik

This will start setting a defensive tone to our team with Green and Asik. Calderon, Green and Melo provide spacing. Asik can play a little in the post.

Then when 2016 rolls around have a good amount of space to add to that team and push it over the top.

Bravo brother!

That's what some people and people that don't like using capspaces don't understand. Just imagine if Phil said **** it, i'm going to bring in the joe johnsons, deron williams, josh smith's of the world and try to compete to appease melo and the fans. Imagine the outrage around here? Phil is doing the opposite and people still talk as if there's a better direction? really?

[god shammgod]

I do want to say something to god shammgod's "luck" principle which I mostly agree with.

Would Phil be going all-in on cap room without having a good feel for how he'll use it or who wants to come?

Worth considering. He's a very measured, low-risk kind of guy. I'm just saying it's reasonable to ask whether he would go strong in one direction without feeling good about a safe landing.

Bron is coming! Nah but it wouldn't surprise me if this move is based on positive indications from somewhere or somebody. Hoodwinked again!

Also keep in mind that he likes Shumpert, at least some, and still dealt him away for room. It's not like Shumpert has no potential left. Been playing badly but still has tools and growth potential that fits what Phil looks for. But still dealt him to jettison JR for room. Somebody put the Carl Batman sign in the sky.

i've had the thought that maybe he's talked to gasol's people and feels good about it. it would explain calderon too. but it seems like wishful thinking more then reality.

[moocow007]

this move would suggest calderon might be on the way out too (probably with timmy).

We would have about 27 million approx. to spend with cap holds and options. If you are able to find a trade partners for Timmy and Calderon that would save the knicks another 9 million off the cap next year.

THat would give them approx. 36 million of space to sign 2 max FA plus draft a top 3 pick.

People were right when it would be difficult to get a max FA to sign here. But Phil's plan might be to convince two. Maybe one guy is more willing to come if he knows another guy is coming to team up with Melo.

That would make the most sense right now to me.

If Calderon and Timmy get moved, I would have to think Phil has a slam dunk lined up for the offseason, cause they keep bringing up culture change, there's no one left.

Well if that happens then it means that Jackson has really no other excuses. It'll truly be his team, his way. Well, I'm sure folks will then start blaming Anthony if something goes wrong, but yeah, it would be his baby.

[Nyk4lyfe]

Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

I thought Cole and Acy were free agents?

[Sprewell4Three]

this move would suggest calderon might be on the way out too (probably with timmy).

We would have about 27 million approx. to spend with cap holds and options. If you are able to find a trade partners for Timmy and Calderon that would save the knicks another 9 million off the cap next year.

THat would give them approx. 36 million of space to sign 2 max FA plus draft a top 3 pick.

People were right when it would be difficult to get a max FA to sign here. But Phil's plan might be to convince two. Maybe one guy is more willing to come if he knows another guy is coming to team up with Melo.

That would make the most sense right now to me.

If Calderon and Timmy get moved, I would have to think Phil has a slam dunk lined up for the offseason, cause they keep bringing up culture change, there's no one left.

Well if that happens then it means that Jackson has really no other excuses. It'll truly be his team, his way. Well, I'm sure folks will then start blaming Anthony if something goes wrong, but yeah, it would be his baby.

Anthony will get blamed if he resists the system again. Dude has no rings and shouldnt be acting like his way will lead the team to success.

[K_ick_God]

I do want to say something to god shammgod's "luck" principle which I mostly agree with.

Would Phil be going all-in on cap room without having a good feel for how he'll use it or who wants to come?

Worth considering. He's a very measured, low-risk kind of guy. I'm just saying it's reasonable to ask whether he would go strong in one direction without feeling good about a safe landing.

Bron is coming! Nah but it wouldn't surprise me if this move is based on positive indications from somewhere or somebody. Hoodwinked again!

Also keep in mind that he likes Shumpert, at least some, and still dealt him away for room. It's not like Shumpert has no potential left. Been playing badly but still has tools and growth potential that fits what Phil looks for. But still dealt him to jettison JR for room. Somebody put the Carl Batman sign in the sky.

i've had the thought that maybe he's talked to gasol's people and feels good about it. it would explain calderon too. but it seems like wishful thinking more then reality.

Or L ... A.

[Deeeez Knicks]

I do want to say something to god shammgod's "luck" principle which I mostly agree with.

Would Phil be going all-in on cap room without having a good feel for how he'll use it or who wants to come?

Worth considering. He's a very measured, low-risk kind of guy. I'm just saying it's reasonable to ask whether he would go strong in one direction without feeling good about a safe landing.

Bron is coming! Nah but it wouldn't surprise me if this move is based on positive indications from somewhere or somebody. Hoodwinked again!

Also keep in mind that he likes Shumpert, at least some, and still dealt him away for room. It's not like Shumpert has no potential left. Been playing badly but still has tools and growth potential that fits what Phil looks for. But still dealt him to jettison JR for room. Somebody put the Carl Batman sign in the sky.

At least we are in a position to get “lucky”. Bottom team with our own pick, a boat load of cap space, a star already locked up. What more can you really ask for? You can’t get lucky if your not in the position for it. We have never been in a position like this. And almost every team that has won had to be in this position.

[K_ick_God]

Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

I thought Cole and Acy were free agents?

Acy is a restricted FA with a $1.2M cap hold. Cole is unrestricted with $950K hold.

[god shammgod]

the day of the draft lottery is gonna be the most anxiety filled day in the history of this board

[moocow007]

If Calderon and Timmy get moved, I would have to think Phil has a slam dunk lined up for the offseason, cause they keep bringing up culture change, there's no one left.

Well if that happens then it means that Jackson has really no other excuses. It'll truly be his team, his way. Well, I'm sure folks will then start blaming Anthony if something goes wrong, but yeah, it would be his baby.

Anthony will get blamed if he resists the system again. Dude has no rings and shouldnt be acting like his way will lead the team to success.

How has he resisted the system? He's passing more than he has ever in his career. His assist attempts are up. The assists aren't cause he's got crap with him. And if the "no ring equals loser" argument is valid (and it's not) then why do we want Kevin Durant in 2016 again (and we should)? Would he get applauded if the Knicks do well? Of course not according to you right?

[Damas]

Phil saw last year and saw we were really close to the playoffs. Saw how horrible Felton was and how Tyson mailed it in last year. Watch Dallas and saw Calderon and Dally as two starters playing in the playoffs. He thought that if I replace Felton and Tyson with Calderon and Dally that our win total would increase and we would be in the playoffs. From early reports he thought that Bargs would be able to play half way decent in this system. So those three things in his mind would increase our win total and get us in the playoffs.

That clearly didn't happen....

So instead of compounding the mistake/gamble by trading our expiring contract (Bargs and Amare) for players like Stevenson or Gordon to correct the mistake and get the team in the playoffs he is changing his plan and sell off these players and plan on rebuilding around Melo, top 30 pick and around 30 million dollar in cap space. Then in 2016 when Calderon comes off the books and the cap goes up make a run at another top player.

Next year I would love to see a line-up like

Calderon
Danny Green
Melo
Okafor/Towns
Asik

This will start setting a defensive tone to our team with Green and Asik. Calderon, Green and Melo provide spacing. Asik can play a little in the post.

Then when 2016 rolls around have a good amount of space to add to that team and push it over the top.

This is wishful thinking. What makes you think any of those players are heading to New York?

[ozwizard8]

this move would suggest calderon might be on the way out too (probably with timmy).

We would have about 27 million approx. to spend with cap holds and options. If you are able to find a trade partners for Timmy and Calderon that would save the knicks another 9 million off the cap next year.

THat would give them approx. 36 million of space to sign 2 max FA plus draft a top 3 pick.

People were right when it would be difficult to get a max FA to sign here. But Phil's plan might be to convince two. Maybe one guy is more willing to come if he knows another guy is coming to team up with Melo.

That would make the most sense right now to me.

Tim is going nowhere.

If Calderon gets traded 3 months in then why did he trade for him in the first place?

Why do you think Tim isn't going anywhere. He doesn't pass or defend two thing phil likes in his guards.

calderon doesnt defend at all. he cant drive, even his passing isnt good this season; his turnovers increased..
34 year old 3 year 22m contract !!

why did phil bring calderon with his POISON CONTRACT?!!

[Deeeez Knicks]

Does anyone know what our exact cap space number is?

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

I thought Cole and Acy were free agents?

They are not guaranteed. We can let them go and clear an extra $1mil. I think Cole is at least worth keeping (only an extra $400k in cap space).

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$39,707,649.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$26,792,351.00

[moocow007]

Tim is going nowhere.

If Calderon gets traded 3 months in then why did he trade for him in the first place?

Why do you think Tim isn't going anywhere. He doesn't pass or defend two thing phil likes in his guards.

calderon doesnt defend at all. he cant drive, even his passing isnt good this season; his turnovers increased..
34 year old 3 year 22m contract !!

why did phil bring calderon with his POISON CONTRACT?!!

I was actually wondering that then when the trade was made and still trying to figure it out now.

[Meat]

Can any cap guy tell me if there is any significance to the amount of money Melo left on the table, to clearing all the salary? Like if Melo took his full load and we cleared our cap would we have enough for 2 max? Or did we need him to take less and this was part of the plan?

max is a relative term, i believe someone like

Leonard monroe or butler has a 16 mil max(maybe i might be wrong)
Gasol, Alrdridge, Love, Milsap,Dragic has a 18 mil max

[Anotha Knicks fan]

I do want to say something to god shammgod's "luck" principle which I mostly agree with.

Would Phil be going all-in on cap room without having a good feel for how he'll use it or who wants to come?

Worth considering. He's a very measured, low-risk kind of guy. I'm just saying it's reasonable to ask whether he would go strong in one direction without feeling good about a safe landing.

Bron is coming! Nah but it wouldn't surprise me if this move is based on positive indications from somewhere or somebody. Hoodwinked again!

Also keep in mind that he likes Shumpert, at least some, and still dealt him away for room. It's not like Shumpert has no potential left. Been playing badly but still has tools and growth potential that fits what Phil looks for. But still dealt him to jettison JR for room. Somebody put the Carl Batman sign in the sky.

I don't think this at all KG... I really think it's all about options. If he flunks out of FA, then he has the pick, and vice versa. Same thing with Melo... None of the pieces he has traded were worth anything at the time, and the fact that he could get ANYTHING out of the packages he traded out, despite their worth is great. Whatever he is left with now (with the exception of Calederon and THJr) are what he considers real assets. To include those huge expirings.

[Nyk4lyfe]

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cole............$947,276.00
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Acy..............$1,181,348.00
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$40,786,087.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$25,713,913.00

Not sure if Prigs buy counts as a roster hold but i included an extra one

I thought Cole and Acy were free agents?

They are not guaranteed. We can let them go and clear an extra $1mil. I think Cole is at least worth keeping (only an extra $400k in cap space).

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$39,707,649.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$26,792,351.00

just looked it up. Acy we have a team option for. Cole, we don't.

http://data.shamsports.com/content/page ... knicks.jsp

Acy option is for 1.1mil. You think it's worth it?

[ibraheim718]

I do want to say something to god shammgod's "luck" principle which I mostly agree with.

Would Phil be going all-in on cap room without having a good feel for how he'll use it or who wants to come?

Worth considering. He's a very measured, low-risk kind of guy. I'm just saying it's reasonable to ask whether he would go strong in one direction without feeling good about a safe landing.

Bron is coming! Nah but it wouldn't surprise me if this move is based on positive indications from somewhere or somebody. Hoodwinked again!

Also keep in mind that he likes Shumpert, at least some, and still dealt him away for room. It's not like Shumpert has no potential left. Been playing badly but still has tools and growth potential that fits what Phil looks for. But still dealt him to jettison JR for room. Somebody put the Carl Batman sign in the sky.

i've had the thought that maybe he's talked to gasol's people and feels good about it. it would explain calderon too. but it seems like wishful thinking more then reality.

Or L ... A.

No it's neither. He has no inside track on any free agents and he's not going to commit himself or the teams future on some back channel gossip from some flimsy athlete's entourage. He's simply going to trust his gut and take it one step at a time.. while of course staying true to his principles. Assess the situation, make a move, and assess the situation again and make another move. And as time goes by things become clearer and clearer and a direction is presented and then you go for it.

I highly doubt Phil sold Dolan on some grand plan.. he sold him on a structure and identity that eventually lead to success and not specific personnel moves. And I'm sure he was smart enough to prepare him for the worst as well as the best but that it was best if they just stuck to the plan regardless of either outcome. I'm also sure he himself prepared himself for both outcomes as well.

[NOOB77]

Phil saw last year and saw we were really close to the playoffs. Saw how horrible Felton was and how Tyson mailed it in last year. Watch Dallas and saw Calderon and Dally as two starters playing in the playoffs. He thought that if I replace Felton and Tyson with Calderon and Dally that our win total would increase and we would be in the playoffs. From early reports he thought that Bargs would be able to play half way decent in this system. So those three things in his mind would increase our win total and get us in the playoffs.

That clearly didn't happen....

So instead of compounding the mistake/gamble by trading our expiring contract (Bargs and Amare) for players like Stevenson or Gordon to correct the mistake and get the team in the playoffs he is changing his plan and sell off these players and plan on rebuilding around Melo, top 30 pick and around 30 million dollar in cap space. Then in 2016 when Calderon comes off the books and the cap goes up make a run at another top player.

Next year I would love to see a line-up like

Calderon
Danny Green
Melo
Okafor/Towns
Asik

This will start setting a defensive tone to our team with Green and Asik. Calderon, Green and Melo provide spacing. Asik can play a little in the post.

Then when 2016 rolls around have a good amount of space to add to that team and push it over the top.

This is wishful thinking. What makes you think any of those players are heading to New York?

What makes you think they aren't?

[Thorn]

it's getting rid of guys in a desperate attempt for cap space that you don't know you need and not maximizing your assets. walsh gave up more but he was also after lebron. who are we after ? milsap ?

So if we sign Marc Gasol and draft Jahlil Okafor... you are telling me you would be unhappy with trading away JR Smith and Sumpert?

that would be great. but it seems like a long shot at best.

Oh, I agree it is a long shot... best cast scenario even but when people start saying crap like our best hope is Milsap I have to wonder if they are really Knicks fans. There are many possibilities between now and Milsap, and that ignores what looks to be more likely than not a really solid pick for our team.