Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[K_ick_God]

well his second order of business is to get rid of everyone he acquired during his first order of business. when you realize that, you realize he doesnt really seem to have a plan.

Except it's not really true. Calderon sucks so far but it's early and he's a good player. He didn't acquire Ray or JR or Tyson. He didn't give up a pick for Bargs. Dalembert was waivable -- no harm, no foul.

We'll see what happens to Calderon. One single guy, not "everyone."

when he made that trade, and resigned melo, he intended to compete in the east with those players. now that plan A failed he needs to go another direction. Plan B. and well since he failed miserably with Plan A, how are we expected to believe he will do any better with Plan B ? and if we went with Plan B from the start, we could have used Tyson and Shump to get something in return, and let the cancers expire, while maintaining our cap till 2016, the better year to use that money.

contrary to popular belief on the boards "addition by subtraction" hasnt worked for us. you cant keep trading assets away to get rid of "cultural resistant players", just for the sake of a "culture change". eventually you actually need talent/assets coming back. and now we will blow our Cap load on Dragic and Monroe, then shorty after be crying for 2020 to hurry up and arrive.

Fair enough but sometimes in blackjack you can have a winning hand That can't be beaten, sometimes you have a hand You can win if you play it right, sometimes you have a losing hand that won't win no matter what.

Phil had to try to see if he Could create a winnable hand with Mela 30 but I'm pretty sure that Tyson Chandler and Ray Felton or whatever else we could've gotten was not leading us to the playoffs

It would've added maybe maybe maybe A few wins to lower our pick.

He didn't break the Knicks and he didn't fix the Knicks yet and he was dumped a horrible mess.

[Anotha Knicks fan]

well his second order of business is to get rid of everyone he acquired during his first order of business. when you realize that, you realize he doesnt really seem to have a plan.

Except it's not really true. Calderon sucks so far but it's early and he's a good player. He didn't acquire Ray or JR or Tyson. He didn't give up a pick for Bargs. Dalembert was waivable -- no harm, no foul.

We'll see what happens to Calderon. One single guy, not "everyone."

when he made that trade, and resigned melo, he intended to compete in the east with those players. now that plan A failed he needs to go another direction. Plan B. and well since he failed miserably with Plan A,

I know I fell victim to the possibility of competing this year after he made the trades, but to be fair, the main pieces that failed miserably the year before he got here, were still here. Pieces that he did not get. As someone posted earlier, there were different points of dysfunction on the team. Fixing one aspect of the team without addressing others really didn't/wouldn't/couldn't/won't do much for us. Expecting otherwise is akin to having the same faith in the front office when they were still trying to be competitive by plugging/adding other bloated has beens.

how are we expected to believe he will do any better with Plan B ?

A or B, it's still too soon to judge. To accurately justify any trades, the results would have to be made up via wins, no? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of tanking? I get it. The losses suck, and they aren't doing anything to help public opinion of the team. Winning cures everything, unfortunately our cure is a season or two away.

and if we went with Plan B from the start, we could have used Tyson and Shump to get something in return, and let the cancers expire,while maintaining our cap till 2016, the better year to use that money.

Its an infinite loop really. Make some posters happy if we wait till 2016, while there will be others that will scream death threats for the intermittent trades that must be done in order to make 2016 offseason a reality. (Sort of like what's happening now)

contrary to popular belief on the boards "addition by subtraction" hasnt worked for us.

again, how is it supposed to work? through wins? other than that, you can't say that Phil and co aren't acquiescing to the best offers out there. Also, the "he should have/could have arguments" are interesting, but again, just fodder for message board banter.

you cant keep trading assets away to get rid of "cultural resistant players", just for the sake of a "culture change".

culture change / IQ improvement / triangle players... whatever you want to call it... Why not? If you want to impose a system within the organization, are you going to get the players best suited to play your system, or are you going to play your system only up until those players resistant to it actually play? Can't half ass it man.

eventually you actually need talent/assets coming back.

I believe we will, but the soonest they will be coming back will be in the offseason, starting with the draft, then free agency. I know, I know, not soon enough... but do you still have faith in this season? Cause that would be the only reason I could see for the impatience some are displaying.

and now we will blow our Cap load on Dragic and Monroe, then shorty after be crying for 2020 to hurry up and arrive.

God I hope not. I hope that if Dragic and or Monroe are in Phil's plans, they are given sensible deals.

2020 is as much an exaggeration as expecting this year to be anything short of what it is.


*edited for grammar/spelling, etc

[Pharmcat]

there is no such thing as sensible deal when you have desperate teams with money
dragic and monroe will get near or max money this offseason...aside from NY LAL is very desperate to improve team

[Reign23]

why do you guys think okafor is a PF? is he fast enough to chase stretch 4s ?

[Anotha Knicks fan]

there is no such thing as sensible deal when you have desperate teams with money
dragic and monroe will get near or max money this offseason...aside from NY LAL is very desperate to improve team

That's just the battered wife in you speaking. Albeit the discount was minute, Melo did not receive the absolute MAX this past offseason. Hopefully that is a sign of things to come, rather than an aberration. You are basing your assumptions on the actions of GMs past, while I am basing mine on actions of the present GM.

I could be wrong however, and at that point I will pay my hoodwinking dues.

[dakomish23]

We could have got Thanasis for cash, just like Brooklyn did with the 2nd rd picks they bought

"Keep getting them checks Minnestoa" - Bill Simmons

Come to think of it, we could have given up a future 2nd for the 35th pick in the draft like Memphis did.

We could have gotten the value we got for Tyson without giving up Tyson

the late first round picks you want can be bought too. And now we have cap space and exceptions to do it.

The Knicks can't buy a 1st round pick...they used their money for that already didn't they?

The Chandler deal pieces
http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-ba ... -mavericks

The Outlaw deal
http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-ba ... t-moultrie


We didn't send any money out from what I saw. In a draft no where near as hyped as its predecessor, we may be able to snatch the 30th pick from GSW since they got tons to pay for with Green and Klay's extension. Not sure how the Stepien rules work if you're not trading but selling the pick.

[Workforce250]

or a daisy if you don't.

You can't please everyone. Phil do your thing.

[Besart19]

Calderon, Wear, J.Smith and 2nd rounders for Dragic and filler!!

Bargs, Larkin and 2nd rounder for West

Okafor/Cole
West/Acy
Melo/Early
THJ/Thanasis
Dragic/Prigs

While we keep the flexibility for 2016 when Durant, Noah, Batum and other good players will be available!!

[seren]

Here is Zach Lowe's take:

The Knicks did not get enough for Shumpert in the end. They balked at taking a low first-rounder for him last season, and now they’ve lost him for tax relief and some flexibility they might not have needed. Yes, Shump’s appeal allowed them to offload Smith, but they got next to nothing for a solid young player, and they could have had $20 million in space this summer even with Smith around. That’s poor asset management, even if Shumpert had worn out his welcome in New York.

[dakomish23]

I've been preaching to sell the scrap metal and PJax took what he could get. But I can't help but feel that we could of gotten a #1 pick for Shump in this deal. How did CLE get a 1st rd pick in this deal???? Also, I always felt that Shump was a good fit around Melo as a 3&D guy. Him and Chandler played well in Melo ball.

JR gone feels like a 1000 lbs off the shoulders. Who is Wally gonna jock ride with JR gone?

Shump hasn't been able to hit the 3 or play consistent D since the first 2 weeks of the season.

It's popular to hate on this guy. But when he didn't have a PG dribbling for 15 seconds and actually gets to be a playmaker, he's played well. Him and Chandler were very solid pieces around a small ball Melo. I'll never be an apologist for him. Just stating the fact that he played well next to the guy we just invested 124 million in.

[Jalen Bluntson]

This is the 2nd trade in a stealth tank/rebuild. Was it intentional? I am inclined to believe it was. Phish had to know this roster was just bench players trying out for a job next year. With cap space to flesh out the starting 5 and improve the depth of this team.

Looking at the roster turnover...outside of Jose...the cupboard is almost bare. His money will mean nothing when the cap goes up in 2 seasons. Let's hope he turns it around with better players if he is still here next year. Is he the ideal starter? Not even close. But he IS a player that fits nicely on a solid team. People acting like his deal is kiling this team are far too short sighted. I would like better but for now I'm ok with him.

It is all about nailing FA/DRAFT. Two things we haven't been involved in for quite some time! We sent out failing slackers in order to have the MAXIMUM amount of cap space next year and brought in 5 draft picks (sent one out with Outlaw) since Phil began his tenure. I repeat...we cleared the MAXIMUM possible cap space WITHOUT TRADING PICKS!!! NO OTHER GM IN 15 YEARS HAS DONE THIS!

People thinking we sent out value for nothing in return are two things:
1) Shortsighted
2) GROSSLY over valuing these players and what they mean for our future.

I would mention the 9mil or so in TPEs but why bother.

The Knicks had a high pick not that that long ago. The year they didn't get Steph Curry...

Not high enough. Not possible top pick. Also...not a pick that would have been traded anyway. Just like Jordan Hill was. Okafor FTW!

[2010]

If we are lucky enough to draft Okafor, I'd go after a PF that can watch his back like Mislap, Taj Gibson, Amir Johnson, David West, etc. He's a special guy so we would need to be more careful on who to pair next to him, but a combo that works would pay off

Then use the most of whats left on the backcourt.

See I think the other way I want someone to take the defensive pressure away from him. Phil likes to play big. So maybe a Asik next to Okafor. Bynum/Gasol type combo.

I prefer playing Jah at the 4 also.. get a center who cleans the glass and protects the rim.

Oh now you're coming around to the idea. Before you swore by him being a C and claimed he could be coached up into being a better defender, protecting the rim, and rebounding out of his area.

If you're acknowledging he's ideally a big skilled post-up PF who needs a shotblocker/rebounder beside him to mask his weaknesses, then what were we arguing about again?

[2010]

why do you guys think okafor is a PF? is he fast enough to chase stretch 4s ?

Are stretch 4's strong enough to defend him in the post?

It's the same reason why when teams went big we used to have to take Novak off the floor cuz we couldn't hide him from being posted up.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

[
when he made that trade, and resigned melo, he intended to compete in the east with those players. now that plan A failed he needs to go another direction. Plan B. and well since he failed miserably with Plan A, how are we expected to believe he will do any better with Plan B ? and if we went with Plan B from the start, we could have used Tyson and Shump to get something in return, and let the cancers expire, while maintaining our cap till 2016, the better year to use that money.

contrary to popular belief on the boards "addition by subtraction" hasnt worked for us. you cant keep trading assets away to get rid of "cultural resistant players", just for the sake of a "culture change". eventually you actually need talent/assets coming back. and now we will blow our Cap load on Dragic and Monroe, then shorty after be crying for 2020 to hurry up and arrive.

There's really no evidence that his intention was to compete, as opposed to just making the team just attractive enough to convince Melo to stay. None of his moves necessarily indicate that his goal was to make the playoffs this year. Calderon makes sense as a good locker-room guy who can start to gel with Melo a year early. Trading for him shows Phil's commitment to high IQ, culture, and continuity more than winning immediately. And I believe the plan is for Calderon to be a contributor for the next 3-4 years. As for Shump, Phil could have kept him just to be part of the rebuilding plan. And aside from the moves, the only real evidence that Phil was trying to compete now are press statements, which add exactly zero support for your argument because they are blatant BS. If your theory were correct, he wouldn't have hired a rookie coach, either.

Aside from all this, your argument is just silly on a very fundamental level... something good is happening and you wanna bash it cause it wasn't by design? Should Pop be fired because the only way the Spurs got Duncan was cause of Robinson's injury?

[Deeeez Knicks]

See I think the other way I want someone to take the defensive pressure away from him. Phil likes to play big. So maybe a Asik next to Okafor. Bynum/Gasol type combo.

I prefer playing Jah at the 4 also.. get a center who cleans the glass and protects the rim.

Oh now you're coming around to the idea. Before you swore by him being a C and claimed he could be coached up into being a better defender, protecting the rim, and rebounding out of his area.

If you're acknowledging he's ideally a big skilled post-up PF who needs a shotblocker/rebounder beside him to mask his weaknesses, then what were we arguing about again?

I don't think he can defend pfs though. He struggles defending the perimeter a bit so stretch 4s might give him some trouble. Maybe as a rookie he could play some pf, but as he fills out I think he's a center

[Boarder Patrol]

I see some people claiming we gave up assets in the deal...we didn't give up a single asset. Not one. Shump, after regressing since his rookie year and having multiple major injuries/surgeries was NOT a highly valued player or prospect. He is what he is - decent defensive guard, horrible offense, 8th or 9th man or Thabo type starter.

People also need to stop comparing Jose to Felton and JR. It would be best to get rid of Jose and taking him back was probably a mistake, yes, but JR and Felton are terrible at basketball, not worth their money, and distractions off the court. Calderon is actually a good basketball player. He earns his checks, even if he's getting a little bit more pie than he deserves. He's not a bad contract like those 2.

[2010]

I prefer playing Jah at the 4 also.. get a center who cleans the glass and protects the rim.

Oh now you're coming around to the idea. Before you swore by him being a C and claimed he could be coached up into being a better defender, protecting the rim, and rebounding out of his area.

If you're acknowledging he's ideally a big skilled post-up PF who needs a shotblocker/rebounder beside him to mask his weaknesses, then what were we arguing about again?

I don't think he can defend pfs though. He struggles defending the perimeter a bit so stretch 4s might give him some trouble. Maybe as a rookie he could play some pf, but as he fills out I think he's a center

TBQH, i don't think he can defend ANYONE. But I certainly wouldn't be committed to him at C because he just cannot be your last line of defense, especially in the NBA. He needs a shotblocker/rebounder who is a high energy guy next to him. Unless you find a PF who fits that role while keeping OK4 at C, then he's a PF.

[K_ick_God]

Shut up Zach. He hasn't played like a good player. At all.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Oh now you're coming around to the idea. Before you swore by him being a C and claimed he could be coached up into being a better defender, protecting the rim, and rebounding out of his area.
Who
If you're acknowledging he's ideally a big skilled post-up PF who needs a shotblocker/rebounder beside him to mask his weaknesses, then what were we arguing about again?

I don't think he can defend pfs though. He struggles defending the perimeter a bit so stretch 4s might give him some trouble. Maybe as a rookie he could play some pf, but as he fills out I think he's a center

TBQH, i don't think he can defend ANYONE. But I certainly wouldn't be committed to him at C because he just cannot be your last line of defense, especially in the NBA. He needs a shotblocker/rebounder who is a high energy guy next to him. Unless you find a PF who fits that role while keeping OK4 at C, then he's a PF.

That's true about his defense. He'll probably struggle no matter where he is. Guess it really depends who a paired up next to him. Either way I agree we need a shot blocker/rebounder next to him.

[ibraheim718]

See I think the other way I want someone to take the defensive pressure away from him. Phil likes to play big. So maybe a Asik next to Okafor. Bynum/Gasol type combo.

I prefer playing Jah at the 4 also.. get a center who cleans the glass and protects the rim.

Oh now you're coming around to the idea. Before you swore by him being a C and claimed he could be coached up into being a better defender, protecting the rim, and rebounding out of his area.

If you're acknowledging he's ideally a big skilled post-up PF who needs a shotblocker/rebounder beside him to mask his weaknesses, then what were we arguing about again?

The argument was never about what position I would play him at. Go back and read it. We were arguing about his athleticism and his PnR defense.. which btw has gotten better just like I said it would being coached by Coach K.