Leafs 2014-15 Season Thread

[whysoserious]

I dont agree that the core has gone through almost three coaches.

And even if you think that, imagine a goalie of Bernier's caliber when Wilson was here. He would have easily made the playoffs.

Made the playoffs giving up the same number of shots they do? They've had this problem for years upon years. They don't play defense. The leadership is a problem.

They have Bernier now and struggle. Reimer faces chance after chance after chance.

And is the bar so low that making the playoffs is what it's about?

Seriously, at some point the core players need to be held accountable. They are good as individual pieces, in other situation they may even thrive and succeed but as is, this group together doesn't work and hasn't worked for a while.

[stealthmode]

Time for a fresh start.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I can't believe anyone would stick up for Randy. He was supposed to get fired last year. If they can't hang onto this playoff spot then the core will go, too. You just can't trade players whenever the hell you want to and expect to come out looking good. You can fire a coach, though, and at least give the players another voice to listen to.

[whysoserious]

I can't believe anyone would stick up for Randy. He was supposed to get fired last year. If they can't hang onto this playoff spot then the core will go, too. You just can't trade players whenever the hell you want to and expect to come out looking good. You can fire a coach, though, and at least give the players another voice to listen to.

Don't think anyone's defending the coach really but at some point these players need to also be accountable, no?

[Brew666]

So I'm thinking this is when the wheels come off this team. January is a tough month schedule-wise and now they've lost their only scapegoat. Moving forward, there's no debate who the blame is on now, it's the players and it'll be interesting to see how they deal w/ the media and added pressure.

They might play some inspired hockey initially [they seem to play well w/ a "us against the world" mentality] but I don't think they're in a playoff spot by the end of the month. And if that's the case, I don't expect mgmt to be attempting to improve the roster.

[LLJ]

I can't believe anyone would stick up for Randy. He was supposed to get fired last year. If they can't hang onto this playoff spot then the core will go, too. You just can't trade players whenever the hell you want to and expect to come out looking good. You can fire a coach, though, and at least give the players another voice to listen to.

Don't think anyone's defending the coach really but at some point these players need to also be accountable, no?

Yeah, that's on Nonis. Too bad he's not gonna get fired. TL really **** up in re-signing him.

[GYBE]

So I'm thinking this is when the wheels come off this team. January is a tough month schedule-wise and now they've lost their only scapegoat. Moving forward, there's no debate who the blame is on now, it's the players and it'll be interesting to see how they deal w/ the media and added pressure.

I still have a lot of blame for Nonis.

It's funny hearing people whine about Kessel and Phaneuf. They make money, but at least they contribute. How about we focus on the fact that we're paying a 4th-line forward $5.25 million for half a decade. Worst contract in the league by far and the guy who offered it is still employed by the team.

As for Carlyle, this is welcome and joyous news. I'm sure Horacek will have them playing a bit better until they desperately push for Babcock in the summer.

[Yosemite Dan]

So I'm thinking this is when the wheels come off this team. January is a tough month schedule-wise and now they've lost their only scapegoat. Moving forward, there's no debate who the blame is on now, it's the players and it'll be interesting to see how they deal w/ the media and added pressure.

I still have a lot of blame for Nonis.

It's funny hearing people whine about Kessel and Phaneuf. They make money, but at least they contribute. How about we focus on the fact that we're paying a 4th-line forward $5.25 million for half a decade. Worst contract in the league by far and the guy who offered it is still employed by the team.

As for Carlyle, this is welcome and joyous news. I'm sure Horacek will have them playing a bit better until they desperately push for Babcock in the summer.

Contribute??? How exactly are they contributing? Kessel can score and not do much else. He refuses to backcheck, is streaky and will avoid contact any chance he gets. You do not pay a guy 8 million a year who is so one dimensional and is averse to physical play in getting to those pucks in the corners. When he is your top line player and getting paid like a superstar then you are in big trouble. As for Phanuef, the guy is a 3rd or 4th dman at best but is also getting paid like a superstar. So what if he plays 25 minutes a game, they are not quality minutes as the team is continually out shot and outplayed, the goalies are the only reason he is a plus player. You could give any dman they have 25 minutes a game and I can't see them doing any worse defensively and outplayed in their own zone then they are now.

Sure the forwards are to blame as well for their terrible defensive play and the Clarkson contract doesn't help but when you have those 2 making 15 million combined and will only get worse as they are nearing 30 then you are in big trouble because trading either is near impossible with their contracts. You won't get value for Kessel and Phanuef will be next to impossible to trade with that contract.

I agree that Nonis created this mess, he did the same thing in Vancouver after Burke was canned there, but this mess is from top to bottom. The Gardner deal is another head scratcher. Where does he warrant getting that type of contract? Because he played well for a couple of weeks? That's the Leaf way. Any player that goes through a good stretch for a month or so are given a huge contract and then they're stuck with an average player with an albatross contract, Lupul and Bozek being others.

Babcock will not be coming here because they're basically stuck with guys like Phanuef, Gardner, Kessel and Clarkson for the next half decade. With that type of core and money they tie up you can only get so much no matter how good a coach you are. He doesnt need that type of aggravation. He will be staying in Detroit or going to Pittsburgh.

[whysoserious]

Nonis should have been fired along with Carlyle. I get the sense this was a directive (and the first) from Brendan.

The question is why leave Nonis in place? Maybe he's taken the coaching excuse away from Dave and the players and that gives him more reason to sell whatever his vision is. The problem is now's the time and leading up to the trade deadline to suck up the cost and start moving some of these guys out. Instead, we're going to do the overhaul after the season.

[GYBE]

Contribute??? How exactly are they contributing? Kessel can score and not do much else. He refuses to backcheck, is streaky and will avoid contact any chance he gets. You do not pay a guy 8 million a year who is so one dimensional and is averse to physical play in getting to those pucks in the corners. When he is your top line player and getting paid like a superstar then you are in big trouble. As for Phanuef, the guy is a 3rd or 4th dman at best but is also getting paid like a superstar. So what if he plays 25 minutes a game, they are not quality minutes as the team is continually out shot and outplayed, the goalies are the only reason he is a plus player. You could give any dman they have 25 minutes a game and I can't see them doing any worse defensively and outplayed in their own zone then they are now.

Sure the forwards are to blame as well for their terrible defensive play and the Clarkson contract doesn't help but when you have those 2 making 15 million combined and will only get worse as they are nearing 30 then you are in big trouble because trading either is near impossible with their contracts. You won't get value for Kessel and Phanuef will be next to impossible to trade with that contract

Kessel can score at a ridiculously high level. Over the last 3 years, he's 3rd in the entire league in points. He's not the problem. He would look exactly like Kane if he was playing on the Blackhawks. Because he's playing with much less talent and terrible coaching, his flaws are more easily exposed.

The idea that Kessel is untradeable is silly. He would get more than his contract if he were a FA today, he has lots of value. Elite scorers like him don't go on the market very often.

[Bankai]

The team is pretty unlikeable though, I dont think having the Coach be the fall guy will fix the problems with this team. The media might be sharks but even they dont think this team is approachable. Reimer is the most likeable guy on this team and then it falls off considerably. The Raptors were media darlings because while the media may ask dumb questions, Lowry, Vasquez, Demar, Amir, and Pat are very approachable and well liked by the media. Its easier to see how they they really are and how much team bonding is in the Raptor lockerroom. This Leafs core is very unlikable. Kessel is a "great player that has terrible character" and Phaneuf is bad yet people lay off him because he wears the C. Bernier has had alot of face palm moments, Kadri seems like a loose cannon. Anyways, Ive always thought that this was a flawed core on and off the ice. I dunno about the story of not retaining Mason Raymond, I thought he was great on the ice and loved by the fans in his little time here. I dont really follow the Leafs much.

[whysoserious]

Kessel can score at a ridiculously high level. Over the last 3 years, he's 3rd in the entire league in points. He's not the problem. He would look exactly like Kane if he was playing on the Blackhawks. Because he's playing with much less talent and terrible coaching, his flaws are more easily exposed.

The idea that Kessel is untradeable is silly. He would get more than his contract if he were a FA today, he has lots of value. Elite scorers like him don't go on the market very often.

You're right about Kessel but his inconsistency exposes him on the Leafs because there isn't enough talent around him to cover for him during his down periods. That's a reflection of management and the team they've built. At the same time, with Kessel he's probably the only guy teams would have interest in and you aren't acquiring high end talent to play with him because of how horrible the Leafs manage the cap since it was introduced.

Kessel and Phaneuf aren't bad players. On good teams they would thrive because they would be in better roles with better players around them. On this team though and the roles they are required to fill, they just won't ever live up to expectations. They need to be moved and the team needs to rebuild.

Kessel would be the last guy I'd move out of the core because I'd like to see what he could do with some better talent but I wouldn't hesitate to trade him either.

[Yosemite Dan]

Contribute??? How exactly are they contributing? Kessel can score and not do much else. He refuses to backcheck, is streaky and will avoid contact any chance he gets. You do not pay a guy 8 million a year who is so one dimensional and is averse to physical play in getting to those pucks in the corners. When he is your top line player and getting paid like a superstar then you are in big trouble. As for Phanuef, the guy is a 3rd or 4th dman at best but is also getting paid like a superstar. So what if he plays 25 minutes a game, they are not quality minutes as the team is continually out shot and outplayed, the goalies are the only reason he is a plus player. You could give any dman they have 25 minutes a game and I can't see them doing any worse defensively and outplayed in their own zone then they are now.

Sure the forwards are to blame as well for their terrible defensive play and the Clarkson contract doesn't help but when you have those 2 making 15 million combined and will only get worse as they are nearing 30 then you are in big trouble because trading either is near impossible with their contracts. You won't get value for Kessel and Phanuef will be next to impossible to trade with that contract

Kessel can score at a ridiculously high level. Over the last 3 years, he's 3rd in the entire league in points. He's not the problem. He would look exactly like Kane if he was playing on the Blackhawks. Because he's playing with much less talent and terrible coaching, his flaws are more easily exposed.

The idea that Kessel is untradeable is silly. He would get more than his contract if he were a FA today, he has lots of value. Elite scorers like him don't go on the market very often.

Never said he was untradeable, I said you won't get the value that the Leafs and many fans think he would get. In that you would get elite talent back. He's an elite scorer but his many flaws make him a good player, not a great player and teams are not gonna throw a lot back at the Leafs for a player who is one dimensional and locked to a huge long term contract. And this is a player who relies on speed as his biggest asset and teams know a player who relies on quickness like he does will not age well as he hits over 30 and still has a large chunk of contract left. And for a guy who has never put fitness first, he will probably lose his speed advantage sooner rather than later. Look at how quickly Vince Carter fell off as he hit over 30 who is a similar basketball version of Kessel.

That being said the time is now to trade him while he still has some value to free up some cap room (guys like Phanuef and Clarkson are untradeable so you're stuck with them against the cap) because in 3 years time he will have very little value. Cut bait and get what you can for him. The old adage of trading a player a year too soon rather than a year too late applies very well in this case.

And this comparison of Kane to Kessel is a poor one. Yes Kane is not the greatest back checker around but he at least is not afraid to get his nose dirty in the offensive corners and has some fight in him when needed to hold on to the puck. Kessel goes up and down the wing when he's not floating around center ice waiting for a breakout pass and rarely fights for the puck if his dipsy doodles don't work.

[whysoserious]

The time to trade him was last year before he re-signed and the same with Phaneuf. The Dion signing was a huge huge mistake. They sold it as well he'll get that much on FA and he plays 25 mins a night. So what, he's just not good enough to take up that much room on a teams cap, especially one that's made so many mistakes managing it. Let him go to FA or trade him at the deadline and if he gets offers in that range, so be it, you let him walk. They could have turned around and given Franson a long-term deal and he provides just as much offensively if not more than Phaneuf and would have cost significantly less.

Nonis really needs to go and he needs to go now.

[whysoserious]

Also, for those that know the hockey cap and rules better, is it actually possible for the Leafs to stick Phaneuf on waivers and send him to the Marlies? Not sure if he has any of those stupid no movement clauses either.

If it was me running the team, I'd suck it up and trade Phaneuf and Kessel for whatever I can get. Trade Clarkson, Bozak (probably last) and Lupul.

Then I'd bring up any young prospects they have and just let the kids play. Put Kadri on the first line with JVR and let them just play and have fun the rest of the season. Whatever coach comes in, has to focus on developing Reilly, Gardiner and Franson on the back end.

From there you play things out and go in to the off-season. It's gonna take 2 maybe 3 years before you even start to see a turnaround so patience is key and Shanny needs to tell the media and his new GM that's the plan. It's going to be painful. Don't go out and spend a ton of money just to put more bandaids on it, even if they start to have moderate success with these young guys. Just keep building slowly.

[Yosemite Dan]

Also, for those that know the hockey cap and rules better, is it actually possible for the Leafs to stick Phaneuf on waivers and send him to the Marlies? Not sure if he has any of those stupid no movement clauses either.

If it was me running the team, I'd suck it up and trade Phaneuf and Kessel for whatever I can get. Trade Clarkson, Bozak (probably last) and Lupul.

Then I'd bring up any young prospects they have and just let the kids play. Put Kadri on the first line with JVR and let them just play and have fun the rest of the season. Whatever coach comes in, has to focus on developing Reilly, Gardiner and Franson on the back end.

From there you play things out and go in to the off-season. It's gonna take 2 maybe 3 years before you even start to see a turnaround so patience is key and Shanny needs to tell the media and his new GM that's the plan. It's going to be painful. Don't go out and spend a ton of money just to put more bandaids on it, even if they start to have moderate success with these young guys. Just keep building slowly.

Actually the top of my list of movable assets is Kadri. He's having an OK season compared to last year where he was invisible most nights but he is the same type of soft player with motivation problems that the Leafs have an abundance of. But since he's not as bad as last year the Leafs will hand him a big contract over the summer paying him first line money when he plays like a 3rd line player most nights. That's the Leaf way. Grossly overpay to reward a month or 2 of good play like they did with Phaneuf. Kadri is the poster boy for a type of player who will mail it in once he signs a big contract. But even then how much can they really get for him when he is a free agent this summer so they will undoubtedly give him a albatross contract instead. Yeah the Leafs are screwed

[whysoserious]

Actually the top of my list of movable assets is Kadri. He's having an OK season compared to last year where he was invisible most nights but he is the same type of soft player with motivation problems that the Leafs have an abundance of. But since he's not as bad as last year the Leafs will hand him a big contract over the summer paying him first line money when he plays like a 3rd line player most nights. That's the Leaf way. Grossly overpay to reward a month or 2 of good play like they did with Phaneuf. Kadri is the poster boy for a type of player who will mail it in once he signs a big contract. But even then how much can they really get for him when he is a free agent this summer so they will undoubtedly give him a albatross contract instead. Yeah the Leafs are screwed

The Leafs are weird when you look at the Kadri situation. They held so strong on not giving him a big deal as a restricted free agent. He's one of the few young guys on the team and deserves to stay but he's also a tradeable asset at this point. He's not classified as untradeable so if you can get stuff for him, so be it but I would actually like to see him get an extended look as the first line C. I don't believe that's the role for him and he's ideally suited as a number 2 C.

[Brew666]

Also, for those that know the hockey cap and rules better, is it actually possible for the Leafs to stick Phaneuf on waivers and send him to the Marlies? Not sure if he has any of those stupid no movement clauses either.

I didn't know capgeek was done with, so not sure what the best resource for checking contract info now.

Doing a quick search I found that he has a limited no trade clause. I'm guessing he can either provide a list of teams or there's a window in June-July where he's tradeable.

Pretty sure the previous cba also addressed burying contracts in the minors. Don't know what the details are but I think his cap hit stays w/ the team if he's sent down.

Looking to the brighter side, not one of the long term contracts have full no trade clauses, so that's something...

[Yosemite Dan]

Actually the top of my list of movable assets is Kadri. He's having an OK season compared to last year where he was invisible most nights but he is the same type of soft player with motivation problems that the Leafs have an abundance of. But since he's not as bad as last year the Leafs will hand him a big contract over the summer paying him first line money when he plays like a 3rd line player most nights. That's the Leaf way. Grossly overpay to reward a month or 2 of good play like they did with Phaneuf. Kadri is the poster boy for a type of player who will mail it in once he signs a big contract. But even then how much can they really get for him when he is a free agent this summer so they will undoubtedly give him a albatross contract instead. Yeah the Leafs are screwed

The Leafs are weird when you look at the Kadri situation. They held so strong on not giving him a big deal as a restricted free agent. He's one of the few young guys on the team and deserves to stay but he's also a tradeable asset at this point. He's not classified as untradeable so if you can get stuff for him, so be it but I would actually like to see him get an extended look as the first line C. I don't believe that's the role for him and he's ideally suited as a number 2 C.

I think they were all set for to give him a big contract but then saw that Montreal gave Subban a bridge contract to see how he pans out and thought to themslves "oh we can do that? and to think we were all set to give him a 8 year deal".

Never was a big fan of Kadri. I think he's lazy and only seems to play well when he's playing a team like Pittsburgh playing against Crosby because it''s an ego thing. He has shown to be terribly inconsistent and streaky and in the vast majority of cases a player who has motivational problems the first few years of thier career always have motivational problems. He might have 2nd line talent but not the kind of player you can go far with in the playoffs as your 2nd line center because like Kessel he doesn't have that grit you need in your better talents. He's a poor man's version of Kessel and we have enough of those kind of players. If we overpay him to a 5 or 6 year contract for fear of losing him in free agency then we would regret it a year after he signed. That's why trade him now so the Leafs can resist the temptation of overpaying him.

And that's the big problem with the team. Thier top offensive talents are too easy to knock off the puck and then they're stuck deep in the offensive zone while the other team is going the other way on a odd man break and keep possession because those guys can't do anything to knock the opposition off the puck in thier own end when they finally get back.

[ATLTimekeeper]

The trade Phaneuf/Kessel movement is total media driven/fan hysteria. I hate Phaneuf more than probably anyone on here, but he's still a good defensemen. I don't want to keep chasing out talent because of bull**** "accountability" issues. We've chased out so many players because we thought they weren't tough enough, didn't play hard enough, Muskoka 5 and all that. It makes for great talk radio, but the net result is we have never improved significantly when these guys get shuffled off for pennies on the dollar. The only real hard decision that would make sense is a total gut job to tank for McDavid. But, I think we're sitting in a playoff spot right now and you know that Bell/Rogers/Tanenbaum are not going to sign off on throwing the season away. The time to do that was probably in the off-season, anyway.

It sounds like Nonis is just hanging on by a thread and that Mark Hunter will take over. Maybe they're waiting for Leweike to officially leave town.