Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[ibraheim718]

I don't think he can defend pfs though. He struggles defending the perimeter a bit so stretch 4s might give him some trouble. Maybe as a rookie he could play some pf, but as he fills out I think he's a center

TBQH, i don't think he can defend ANYONE. But I certainly wouldn't be committed to him at C because he just cannot be your last line of defense, especially in the NBA. He needs a shotblocker/rebounder who is a high energy guy next to him. Unless you find a PF who fits that role while keeping OK4 at C, then he's a PF.

That's true about his defense. He'll probably struggle no matter where he is. Guess it really depends who a paired up next to him. Either way I agree we need a shot blocker/rebounder next to him.

Common sense would lead a personnel department to mesh players that complement each other. That's how you build cohesive teams.

And the bottom line is his ability to get you an easy, efficient 20ppg and command double teams that he's shown the ability to pass out of are far more important to a team than his shot blocking and rebounding which by virtue of his sheer size he isn't as bad at as people make him seem. His presence in the paint affects shots around the basket and his rebounding is pretty good for a guy who teams try and drag out of the painted area.

[2010]

I prefer playing Jah at the 4 also.. get a center who cleans the glass and protects the rim.

Oh now you're coming around to the idea. Before you swore by him being a C and claimed he could be coached up into being a better defender, protecting the rim, and rebounding out of his area.

If you're acknowledging he's ideally a big skilled post-up PF who needs a shotblocker/rebounder beside him to mask his weaknesses, then what were we arguing about again?

The argument was never about what position I would play him at. Go back and read it. We were arguing about his athleticism and his PnR defense.. which btw has gotten better just like I said it would being coached by Coach K.

Yeah, forgot about the athleticism (or lackthere of) debate.

For the record, I still wouldn't call him athletic and I still don't ever see him becoming much of a defender/shotblocker/pick 'n' roll hedger due to defensive awareness and motor issues defensively. But we'll have to let this thing run it's course to find out.

But I won't complain if we end up drafting him and playing him at the 4 wit the right C next to him. But if he's drafted and left at C with no complimentary big to be the last line of defense, it will not be optimal to the success of the team or his own development.

[Knicks_Fan2]

There is no question, in hindsight for me but not for others, that trading Tyson when we did was really foolish.

I think there's much question. You're not getting a 1-15 type pick for him. So at 15-30 and 2nd, and it not being clear that we could get an expiring for him, it's still a pretty open question. If he played like this on the Knicks, iffy at best, maybe Dallas ups their offer. The Cavs couldn't do it really, cap wise. And why would they? A guy like Moz will be better for longer and cheaper. Who are these teams lining up for him? And nobody is offering substantial value.

We took back Calderon's horrific deal (given that we are apparently now trying to trade him) and, besides Dallas, there will be other teams that need bigs as well as the deadline nears. The Cavs are looking to win now and Tyson would have been perfect for that team.

[GONYK]

I've been preaching to sell the scrap metal and PJax took what he could get. But I can't help but feel that we could of gotten a #1 pick for Shump in this deal. How did CLE get a 1st rd pick in this deal???? Also, I always felt that Shump was a good fit around Melo as a 3&D guy. Him and Chandler played well in Melo ball.

JR gone feels like a 1000 lbs off the shoulders. Who is Wally gonna jock ride with JR gone?

Shump hasn't been able to hit the 3 or play consistent D since the first 2 weeks of the season.

It's popular to hate on this guy. But when he didn't have a PG dribbling for 15 seconds and actually gets to be a playmaker, he's played well. Him and Chandler were very solid pieces around a small ball Melo. I'll never be an apologist for him. Just stating the fact that he played well next to the guy we just invested 124 million in.

Well he wasn't doing it this season, and the vast majority of last season. His own inability to dribble the ball had a lot to do with it.

I don't hate Shump, but he was a major zero for us the last 2 seasons. Not really worth holding my breath hoping he'll become consistent.

[K_ick_God]

Shump failed. Phil needs to shore up our player development culture and staff.

[Context]

Dont be surprised if Melo gets traded...

Don't mess with me, Context.

just my opinion...

[Capn'O]

Ironically, a great player from a strict skills standpoint to pair with Okafor would be Josh Smith.

Unfortunately, a rule is a rule. NO MORE JSMITHS!

[K_ick_God]

There is no question, in hindsight for me but not for others, that trading Tyson when we did was really foolish.

I think there's much question. You're not getting a 1-15 type pick for him. So at 15-30 and 2nd, and it not being clear that we could get an expiring for him, it's still a pretty open question. If he played like this on the Knicks, iffy at best, maybe Dallas ups their offer. The Cavs couldn't do it really, cap wise. And why would they? A guy like Moz will be better for longer and cheaper. Who are these teams lining up for him? And nobody is offering substantial value.

We took back Calderon's horrific deal (given that we are apparently now trying to trade him) and, besides Dallas, there will be other teams that need bigs as well as the deadline nears. The Cavs are looking to win now and Tyson would have been perfect for that team.

I have addressed this. Cavs not a realistic team to send back an expiring and give value.

Who knows what other teams would've given. Very speculative.

[malik959]

I don't know why you like to play the coulda shoulda woulda game to prove a point. What makes you think Tyson would have stayed healthy after being injury prone all of last year?

And he's likely wrong. Someone is probably eating AV's contract in this situation and that's a bad deal -- dude is less healthy than Grant Hill in his prime.

I know he talks about doing all this other stuff to get him without AV but it's a stretch. It'd have required AV now in all likelihood OR you'd have to convince the Cavs that Tyson was better than AV before they gave him the big extension. Which is a long shot. Tyson was atrocious last season. And clearly the Cavs wanted to invest in AV so they like him/want him.

why would it require AV? They had the expiring deals to do it without him.

Man this reminds me of when we first had an injury riddled Camby and traded him. The Knicks no longer had the patients to wait for him to get healthy and who could blame them. When players have these major injuries that take forever and a day to heal, come back and re-injure or receive another injury the decision to get rid of them becomes easy. When Tyson did play he didn't give 100% and slacked off noticeably. If we didn't trade Ty we would have had to keep Felt on.

The Shump and JR deal might not have been a great deal but it was a necessary deal to make. Both players were injury riddled and were never going to stay healthy. Shump NEVER avg. more than 9.5 ppg, and 9.5 was actually his rookie year. To be this so called great defender he's never avg. more than 1.3 spg. and yet again his best was 1.7 his rookie season. And this board thinks teams are going to just give away a 1st Rd. pick for him LMAO! A D. leaguer could put up better numbers. Phill made the right move. Cut our dead weight!

[FKF]

And he's likely wrong. Someone is probably eating AV's contract in this situation and that's a bad deal -- dude is less healthy than Grant Hill in his prime.

I know he talks about doing all this other stuff to get him without AV but it's a stretch. It'd have required AV now in all likelihood OR you'd have to convince the Cavs that Tyson was better than AV before they gave him the big extension. Which is a long shot. Tyson was atrocious last season. And clearly the Cavs wanted to invest in AV so they like him/want him.

why would it require AV? They had the expiring deals to do it without him.

Man this reminds me of when we first had an injury riddled Camby and traded him. The Knicks no longer had the patients to wait for him to get healthy and who could blame them. When players have these major injuries that take forever and a day to heal, come back and re-injure or receive another injury the decision to get rid of them becomes easy. When Tyson did play he didn't give 100% and slacked off noticeably. If we didn't trade Ty we would have had to keep Felt on.

The Shump and JR deal might not have been a great deal but it was a necessary deal to make. Both players were injury riddled and were never going to stay healthy. Shump NEVER avg. more than 9.5 ppg, and 9.5 was actually his rookie year. To be this so called great defender he's never avg. more than 1.3 spg. and yet again his best was 1.7 his rookie season. And this board thinks teams are going to just give away a 1st Rd. pick for him LMAO! A D. leaguer could put up better numbers. Phill made the right move. Cut our dead weight!

Yeah and the ironic is that the player who gets traded for a 1st round pick is in this deal... it's Dion Waiters, a former #4 draft choice with much better potential, picked ahead of the likes of Damian Lillard, Harrison Barnes, Terence Ross, Andre Drummond... and only behind Anthony Davis, MKG and Bradley Beal.
I liked Shump but he is a former #17 who never averages double figures in scoring and is injury prone, no way he could net a 1st rounder on his own, especially in a deal where we unload JR. I would have done the trade without the Cavs future 2nd rounder really.

[vallen]

[
when he made that trade, and resigned melo, he intended to compete in the east with those players. now that plan A failed he needs to go another direction. Plan B. and well since he failed miserably with Plan A, how are we expected to believe he will do any better with Plan B ? and if we went with Plan B from the start, we could have used Tyson and Shump to get something in return, and let the cancers expire, while maintaining our cap till 2016, the better year to use that money.

contrary to popular belief on the boards "addition by subtraction" hasnt worked for us. you cant keep trading assets away to get rid of "cultural resistant players", just for the sake of a "culture change". eventually you actually need talent/assets coming back. and now we will blow our Cap load on Dragic and Monroe, then shorty after be crying for 2020 to hurry up and arrive.

There's really no evidence that his intention was to compete, as opposed to just making the team just attractive enough to convince Melo to stay. None of his moves necessarily indicate that his goal was to make the playoffs this year. Calderon makes sense as a good locker-room guy who can start to gel with Melo a year early. Trading for him shows Phil's commitment to high IQ, culture, and continuity more than winning immediately. And I believe the plan is for Calderon to be a contributor for the next 3-4 years. As for Shump, Phil could have kept him just to be part of the rebuilding plan. And aside from the moves, the only real evidence that Phil was trying to compete now are press statements, which add exactly zero support for your argument because they are blatant BS. If your theory were correct, he wouldn't have hired a rookie coach, either.

Aside from all this, your argument is just silly on a very fundamental level... something good is happening and you wanna bash it cause it wasn't by design? Should Pop be fired because the only way the Spurs got Duncan was cause of Robinson's injury?

Both Phil and Fisher repeatedly said they were going into the season to compete. just stop.

[DaGawd]

[
when he made that trade, and resigned melo, he intended to compete in the east with those players. now that plan A failed he needs to go another direction. Plan B. and well since he failed miserably with Plan A, how are we expected to believe he will do any better with Plan B ? and if we went with Plan B from the start, we could have used Tyson and Shump to get something in return, and let the cancers expire, while maintaining our cap till 2016, the better year to use that money.

contrary to popular belief on the boards "addition by subtraction" hasnt worked for us. you cant keep trading assets away to get rid of "cultural resistant players", just for the sake of a "culture change". eventually you actually need talent/assets coming back. and now we will blow our Cap load on Dragic and Monroe, then shorty after be crying for 2020 to hurry up and arrive.

There's really no evidence that his intention was to compete, as opposed to just making the team just attractive enough to convince Melo to stay. None of his moves necessarily indicate that his goal was to make the playoffs this year. Calderon makes sense as a good locker-room guy who can start to gel with Melo a year early. Trading for him shows Phil's commitment to high IQ, culture, and continuity more than winning immediately. And I believe the plan is for Calderon to be a contributor for the next 3-4 years. As for Shump, Phil could have kept him just to be part of the rebuilding plan. And aside from the moves, the only real evidence that Phil was trying to compete now are press statements, which add exactly zero support for your argument because they are blatant BS. If your theory were correct, he wouldn't have hired a rookie coach, either.

Aside from all this, your argument is just silly on a very fundamental level... something good is happening and you wanna bash it cause it wasn't by design? Should Pop be fired because the only way the Spurs got Duncan was cause of Robinson's injury?

Both Phil and Fisher repeatedly said they were going into the season to compete. just stop.

I don't understand why yall go by what Phil and Fish said in the off season as an indicator of whether or not we are intentionally tanking or not.. every team in the league says the same thing pretty much except for ones that are clearly rebuilding like Philly for instance. We have Melo.. going into the season you almost have to say " Yeah we expect to be in the playoff hunt". Anything otherwise just sounds bad.

[dakomish23]

Matt Moore had a good viewpoint on Shump. He's a great on the ball defender. He's got good instincts and active hands to make it difficult for primary ball handlers. His failure is off the ball, where he often loses his man while ball watching.

That's why I think Shump is ideal with a true rim protector behind him. Someone who can cover the back door plays.

The moment Calderon came back, Shump fell off a cliff. Look at the actual game log. He killed it up to then. Stick him in the corner to do nothing with the ball and he will wilt.

Too bad this kid had so many injuries. Never got to put a full year together

[ORANGEandBLUE]

I've been a big shump defender, but there was no change in the system or his role that coincided with his massive slump. He's just that inconsistent. And he was getting torched all season, e.g. Westbrook, Deron, Wade all had monster games against him, and individual on-ball d is supposed to be his strength.

[KnicksScholar24]

I figure Calderon will be next to go because he'll be the second highest paid player after Carmelo, and he's 33+ and can't play defense. While he does have his positive attributes, I don't see him being part of the Knicks' future plans and his $7.4 salary could be big in the off-season, because it could mean the difference between adding a star or multiple quality free agents (younger ones that can defend).

I don't know why every trade idea for Calderon has Tim Hardaway Jr attached it him. Calderon should have enough value to be traded on his own (I like Lin for Calderon straight up, if possible), and Hardaway is a young talent on his rookie contract. There is absolutely no reason to add him. Is there an abundance of unknown draft picks that the Knicks have that can be used to replacement him in the next upcoming drafts? The Knicks should be looking to ADD young talent (like Hardaway) and draft picks, not traded them a away for an extra million in cap space in the off-season.

Hardaway is a bad defender, but at least he's young enough, unlike Calderon, to be given the opportunity to improve. His offense has been streaky this season, but at least his contract is small enough, unlike Calderon, to keep on the roster to develop and see if he can become more consistent.

[bigfnjoe96]

I figure Calderon will be next to go because he'll be the second highest paid player after Carmelo, and he's 33+ and can't play defense. While he does have his positive attributes, I don't see him being part of the Knicks' future plans and his $7.4 salary could be big in the off-season, because it could mean the difference between adding a star or multiple quality free agents (younger ones that can defend).

I don't know why every trade idea for Calderon has Tim Hardaway Jr attached it him. Calderon should have enough value to be traded on his own (I like Lin for Calderon straight up, if possible), and Hardaway is a young talent on his rookie contract. There is absolutely no reason to add him. Is there an abundance of unknown draft picks that the Knicks have that can be used to replacement him in the next upcoming drafts? The Knicks should be looking to ADD young talent (like Hardaway) and draft picks, not traded them a away for an extra million in cap space in the off-season.

Hardaway is a bad defender, but at least he's young enough, unlike Calderon, to be given the opportunity to improve. His offense has been streaky this season, but at least his contract is small enough, unlike Calderon, to keep on the roster to develop and see if he can become more consistent.

I think the reason TH Jr, seems attached is because Calderon's salary is kind of high (2 years/15M) and probably any team taking him on is gonna want an asset (draft pick) unless it's a trade where we take on another teams player with money on the books for at least next year.

[Deeeez Knicks]

TBQH, i don't think he can defend ANYONE. But I certainly wouldn't be committed to him at C because he just cannot be your last line of defense, especially in the NBA. He needs a shotblocker/rebounder who is a high energy guy next to him. Unless you find a PF who fits that role while keeping OK4 at C, then he's a PF.

That's true about his defense. He'll probably struggle no matter where he is. Guess it really depends who a paired up next to him. Either way I agree we need a shot blocker/rebounder next to him.

Common sense would lead a personnel department to mesh players that complement each other. That's how you build cohesive teams.

And the bottom line is his ability to get you an easy, efficient 20ppg and command double teams that he's shown the ability to pass out of are far more important to a team than his shot blocking and rebounding which by virtue of his sheer size he isn't as bad at as people make him seem. His presence in the paint affects shots around the basket and his rebounding is pretty good for a guy who teams try and drag out of the painted area.

Yeah I totally agree. I am aboard the Okafor bandwagon. Those type of players don't come along often.

He has really been improving on defense too. Just one season with Coach K is going to help him out a lot. He seems like a smart kid that picks up on things quick. I think people took a few clips from the Wisconsin game as evidence, but that was a tough matchup for him. The C they have can really knock down 3's, so he had to stay home and couldn't help out as much on the pick n roll. He did adjust as the game went along though (I am sure with Coach K's help too).

Overall i think he's gonna have an easier time defending Centers rather then PFs though.

[KnicksScholar24]

Matt Moore had a good viewpoint on Shump. He's a great on the ball defender. He's got good instincts and active hands to make it difficult for primary ball handlers. His failure is off the ball, where he often loses his man while ball watching.

That's why I think Shump is ideal with a true rim protector behind him. Someone who can cover the back door plays.

The moment Calderon came back, Shump fell off a cliff. Look at the actual game log. He killed it up to then. Stick him in the corner to do nothing with the ball and he will wilt.

Too bad this kid had so many injuries. Never got to put a full year together

A year or two ago, I would have been upset about losing Iman Shumpert for so little, but the guy has never shot over 40-41% in his career and his defense has become the most overrated thing in the NBA. While did show flashed on good on-the-ball defense, on rare occasion, his off-the-ball defense was horrendous and he routinely left 3-point shooters open, to sag into the paint FOR NO REASON. He, nor any other Knicks' wing defender, had any responsibility to defend their own man on the perimeter, which is why this years Knicks roster is maybe the worst in NBA history at defending the three-point line.

I saw his highest potential as a big point guard, and any game that he got to start at PG and play a big role in the team offense, he played great, but his terrible shooting (39% career) with very little improvement from year-to-year is a big sign that he doesn't have the commitment or work ethic to improve. While a new role, new team might help him, I don't see him improving much throughout his career.

I thought he potential had 'low-end Paul George' potential after the 54-win season, but he's show no improvement, and has even gotten worse. I then lowered my expectations and hoped he could developed into a low-budget Tony Allen, but he hasn't. Now he's become injury prone. If he stayed with the Knicks, him earning anything more the $2-3 mill/year as a back-up, would have been an overpay. And that would have only made sense, because he is still young. If he was late 20s, early 30s, then you don't re-sign him at all.

My message to Shumpert: Iman, focus less on your music and girlfriend, and more on your basketball skills. Jimmy Butler did and he's going to get paid, while you'll probably out of the NBA in a couple years. Maybe with more dedication to your primary profession, you will eventually live up to the hype that garnered you a Reebok commercial with Damian Lillard & Von Miller.

[mpharris36]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/meanbarb/status/552837257284308992[/tweet]

interesting that is 3 open roster spots.

might something be going down?

[kosmovitelli]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/meanbarb/status/552837257284308992[/tweet]

interesting that is 3 open roster spots.

might something be going down?

On january 10, all contracts become guaranteed for the remainder of the season. That's why these players are cut (non guaranteed contracts). They need to clear the waivers before january 10 and there's a 48 hours waiting period before they clear the waivers. The waiver request deadline's always 5PM (Eastern Time) so if the players are waived today, they will clear the waivers friday at 5PM and those contracts won't become guaranteed on january 10. Mission accomplished. It's not an indication a trade will go down and we're making room to sign a free agent, a 10-day contract, etc. It's just the january 10 deadline for non guaranteed contracts.