Stein: Mozgov Traded To Cleveland For 2 First Round Picks

[panthermark]

Am I the only one who thinks they overpaid for Mozgov and that they look desperate ?
I don't think they have any assets left to improve over the next 2-3 years, which means that if Love doesn't sign with them over the summer, they'll be capped out and virtually out of the contender discussion for at least 2-3 years.

They did overpay and they do look desperate because once Andy went down with an injury, they were desperate. That said, a desperate team paying a premium is not necessarily a horrible thing. It's easy to say that the Cavs should have let the losses pile up until the trade deadline but there would have been a pretty serious cost in doing so. They need time to come together as a team. They also don't need the negativity or drama that would accompany all those losses. LBJ and Shump are still injured and out. Their perimeter defense is really shaky and didn't get better by trading Waiters. With Kevin Love or TT playing center it was a lay up drill. They needed to stop the bleeding and they did.

That pretty much sums it up.
The defense was already poor. But once AV when down, every play-off team in the east with a decent big men and slashing wings were licking their lips. Love and TT protecting the paint? Go straight to the hoop.....

Waiters for Smith is a wash. Waiters is basically the younger, less mature (if possible) version of Smith from a skill standpoint.
Mozgov is a much better rim defender than TT.
Shump helping out on wing defense is a plus. Cavs don't need his (limited) offense anyway, they need role players that will defend.....and depth.

As a Bulls fan, I would have preferred the Cavs pile up losses and turn into a wonderful dysfunctional drama.....especially since we have this year's pick swap rights.

[oikosnomos]

I hear you, but two first round picks? For a guy we just threw in?

How does what the Knicks did with Mozgov have to do with his value around the league? Why in the world did the Knicks just throw in a young center? It can go either way.

Two first round picks is the phrase everyone keeps using because it is amibigous. If you clarify the protections and when and where they are likely to fall, it isn't nearly as sexy.

[jbk1234]

Am I the only one who thinks they overpaid for Mozgov and that they look desperate ?
I don't think they have any assets left to improve over the next 2-3 years, which means that if Love doesn't sign with them over the summer, they'll be capped out and virtually out of the contender discussion for at least 2-3 years.

They did overpay and they do look desperate because once Andy went down with an injury, they were desperate. That said, a desperate team paying a premium is not necessarily a horrible thing. It's easy to say that the Cavs should have let the losses pile up until the trade deadline but there would have been a pretty serious cost in doing so. They need time to come together as a team. They also don't need the negativity or drama that would accompany all those losses. LBJ and Shump are still injured and out. Their perimeter defense is really shaky and didn't get better by trading Waiters. With Kevin Love or TT playing center it was a lay up drill. They needed to stop the bleeding and they did.

That pretty much sums it up.
The defense was already poor. But once AV when down, every play-off team in the east with a decent big men and slashing wings were licking their lips. Love and TT protecting the paint? Go straight to the hoop.....

Waiters for Smith is a wash. Waiters is basically the younger, less mature (if possible) version of Smith from a skill standpoint.
Mozgov is a much better rim defender than TT.
Shump helping out on wing defense is a plus. Cavs don't need his (limited) offense anyway, they need role players that will defend.....and depth.

As a Bulls fan, I would have preferred the Cavs pile up losses and turn into a wonderful dysfunctional drama.....especially since we have this year's pick swap rights.

Waiters' on-the-ball defense is massively underrated. His help defense, on a team that doesn't always rotate when you help off your man, was the problem. The rotations were actually better last than they have been this year with LBJ and Love on the floor. At a certain point, Dion just said screw it, I'm not helping anymore because my man is always left wide open.

Offensively Waiters jump shot abandoned him this years. Last year he shot .368% from three point range on 250 attempts. This year he was hovering around .250%. That type of disparity is well outside the standard deviation year-to-year. Shump also doesn't need the touches in the way that Waiters does.

That said, Waiter has a better handle than Shump, is better at getting to the rim, and can create offense in a way that Shump really can't. As a huge Waiters fan, I was hoping he would have ended up in Boston. He would have fit that team really well. Zeller and Waiters had some real chemistry going last year.

[Sixerscan]

Yup, we disagree. I've never seen a 28 year old guy like Mozgov that has never been a starter before fetch two first round picks.

The Varajao signing is part of the common refrain of Cleveland doing something today that they could have done tomorrow.

Everything you're saying is the consistent "We HAD to make this trade, or else it wouldn't have gotten done." That's not necessarily a good reason, winner's curse and all that.

Really, it wouldn't shock me at all if this was more about making LeBron happy and being worried about him leaving again rather than making the best basketball moves. It's been a common refrain everywhere Lebron has been, wouldn't surprise me if it's happening again.

Are you trolling me? Mozgov has started in a 115 of his 247 games. He is a starter. He is in the highest value positions, he is in his prime and he under cheap contract. Keep saying two first round picks like they are in the lottery. Fair price. I don't know what you even mean when you say "a guy like Mozgov", like that description offers any insight to anyone. It has no inherent meaning.

And I am baffled by the "doing what they could have done tomorrow" statement. If you need a wing defender and a 5, and you can acquire two of the most quality ones that are going to be available, why are we waiting?

You also assume that every deal on the table now will be available later. And again, why would the Cavs wait to pull the trigger on these needs? They need to develop chemistry, waiting for waiting sake.

Of course they didn't have to do these trades, but they are fair and they fill needs that the team had to address.

Then you go on to blame Lebron for everything, which leads me to believe you just don't like Lebron teams, which is fine. It's just affecting you judgment and ability to look at anything clearly. Your only rebuttal for why the trades weren't fair is that the Cavs should have waited (not sure if that is even true).

I like LeBron fine. I've actually been accused of being a lebron homer in the past by jordan-stans. Go through my post history if you don't believe me. But it's also been a noticable thing that the Cavs and Heat in the past screwed up their rosters by doing everything possible to keep him happy. Even the Cavs this year "wasted too many spots on Friends of LeBron who can’t play." Several people have said that Lebron signing in Cleveland was contingent on the Cavs doing whatever necessary to get Love. So it would hardly be the first time that a team jumped the gun and paid too high a price to make a move that Lebron wanted them to make.

You should wait if someone is asking for too high of a price for a player.

I don't assume that every trade will be available later. The Cavs didn't HAVE to trade for Mozgov. If some other team would have offered 2 first round picks, would you have topped them with a 3rd? What if it took a 4th?

We disagree on what the point is where you would back away. Fine. I'm just saying, it's very rare that you see a guy like Mozgov fetch the return that he did.

[panthermark]

They did overpay and they do look desperate because once Andy went down with an injury, they were desperate. That said, a desperate team paying a premium is not necessarily a horrible thing. It's easy to say that the Cavs should have let the losses pile up until the trade deadline but there would have been a pretty serious cost in doing so. They need time to come together as a team. They also don't need the negativity or drama that would accompany all those losses. LBJ and Shump are still injured and out. Their perimeter defense is really shaky and didn't get better by trading Waiters. With Kevin Love or TT playing center it was a lay up drill. They needed to stop the bleeding and they did.

That pretty much sums it up.
The defense was already poor. But once AV when down, every play-off team in the east with a decent big men and slashing wings were licking their lips. Love and TT protecting the paint? Go straight to the hoop.....

Waiters for Smith is a wash. Waiters is basically the younger, less mature (if possible) version of Smith from a skill standpoint.
Mozgov is a much better rim defender than TT.
Shump helping out on wing defense is a plus. Cavs don't need his (limited) offense anyway, they need role players that will defend.....and depth.

As a Bulls fan, I would have preferred the Cavs pile up losses and turn into a wonderful dysfunctional drama.....especially since we have this year's pick swap rights.

Waiters' on-the-ball defense is massively underrated. His help defense, on a team that doesn't always rotate when you help off your man, was the problem. The rotations were actually better last than they have been this year with LBJ and Love on the floor. At a certain point, Dion just said screw it, I'm not helping anymore because my man is always left wide open.

Offensively Waiters jump shot abandoned him this years. Last year he shot .368% from three point range on 250 attempts. This year he was hovering around .250%. That type of disparity is well outside the standard deviation year-to-year. Shump also doesn't need the touches in the way that Waiters does.

That said, Waiter has a better handle than Shump, is better at getting to the rim, and can create offense in a way that Shump really can't. As a huge Waiters fan, I was hoping he would have ended up in Boston. He would have fit that team really well. Zeller and Waiters had some real chemistry going last year.

I think you might have mis-read my post/what you highlighted. I said Waiters for Smith is a wash....not Waiters for Shump.
Smith is probably a better 6th man than Waiters....who didn't want to be a 6th man. But JR Smith is gonna JR Smith. So at some point expect a couple of contested, step-back 27 footers with 14 seconds still left on the shot clock. Gotta take the good with the bad.

[oikosnomos]

You should wait if someone is asking for too high of a price for a player.

I don't assume that every trade will be available later. The Cavs didn't HAVE to trade for Mozgov. If some other team would have offered 2 first round picks, would you have topped them with a 3rd? What if it took a 4th?

We disagree on what the point is where you would back away. Fine. I'm just saying, it's very rare that you see a guy like Mozgov fetch the return that he did.

I think the main point we disagree on is that the price was too high. Mozgov has been a target for since preseason for the Cavs and has good value for all the reasons I previously stated. It might be rare to see a deal like this for "a guy like Mozgov", but only because the situation is rare. I would say the Pelican's trade for Asik is similar, the main differences being being Asik has bigger, shorter contract and it was only one pick but a more valuable one. The pick's protections basically assure it will be in the lottery.

The deal was fair, if the Cavs gave them one of those 1st rounders, it would have been a steal and 3 (say the Cavs 2018 pick as well) would have been a steal for the Nuggets. Two heavily protected picks was fair. If the two picks were both lottery bound, obvious overpay.

This is all just opinions, but I think the picks are being way, way overvalued because of the omission by most of their protections. It's bizarre the way these reports are coming out. When the Cavs received the pick in the Waiters trade, the protections were always clarified and say "heavily protected 1st rounder", but when it was flipped two days later it was only referred to as a 1st rounder.

[The Rebel]

I hear you, but two first round picks? For a guy we just threw in?

How does what the Knicks did with Mozgov have to do with his value around the league? Why in the world did the Knicks just throw in a young center? It can go either way.

Two first round picks is the phrase everyone keeps using because it is amibigous. If you clarify the protections and when and where they are likely to fall, it isn't nearly as sexy.

I like how Mozgov was just a throw in now, during the leadup to the Melo deal Knicks fans wanted no part of trading Mozgov, and many were pissed when it came out that Denver was demanding Mozzy the night before the deal actually went down.

[Thorn]

I hear you, but two first round picks? For a guy we just threw in?

How does what the Knicks did with Mozgov have to do with his value around the league? Why in the world did the Knicks just throw in a young center? It can go either way.

Two first round picks is the phrase everyone keeps using because it is amibigous. If you clarify the protections and when and where they are likely to fall, it isn't nearly as sexy.

I like how Mozgov was just a throw in now, during the leadup to the Melo deal Knicks fans wanted no part of trading Mozgov, and many were pissed when it came out that Denver was demanding Mozzy the night before the deal actually went down.

I was pissed we HAD to throw him in, at the time the kid was not playing at a level anywhere NEAR where he is now and he was literally the last piece in the deal not a major component.

Call him or his inclusion what you will we didn't want to add him to the deal, the Nuggets wanted him. We threw him into the deal that in principle was not "Mel for Mozgov" at the end because your GM was insisting on his inclusion. He did good, we didn't.

I hear you, but two first round picks? For a guy we just threw in?

How does what the Knicks did with Mozgov have to do with his value around the league? Why in the world did the Knicks just throw in a young center? It can go either way.

Two first round picks is the phrase everyone keeps using because it is amibigous. If you clarify the protections and when and where they are likely to fall, it isn't nearly as sexy.

It matters to me because as a Knick fan that is my historical perspective, we threw him into a deal at the end because their GM was insisting on his inclusion... and in the end they are getting two first round picks out of it. I don't care where those picks fall... I would love to have those picks right now.

[mab2039]

Yup, we disagree. I've never seen a 28 year old guy like Mozgov that has never been a starter before fetch two first round picks.

The Varajao signing is part of the common refrain of Cleveland doing something today that they could have done tomorrow.

Everything you're saying is the consistent "We HAD to make this trade, or else it wouldn't have gotten done." That's not necessarily a good reason, winner's curse and all that.

Really, it wouldn't shock me at all if this was more about making LeBron happy and being worried about him leaving again rather than making the best basketball moves. It's been a common refrain everywhere Lebron has been, wouldn't surprise me if it's happening again.

Are you trolling me? Mozgov has started in a 115 of his 247 games. He is a starter. He is in the highest value positions, he is in his prime and he under cheap contract. Keep saying two first round picks like they are in the lottery. Fair price. I don't know what you even mean when you say "a guy like Mozgov", like that description offers any insight to anyone. It has no inherent meaning.

And I am baffled by the "doing what they could have done tomorrow" statement. If you need a wing defender and a 5, and you can acquire two of the most quality ones that are going to be available, why are we waiting?

You also assume that every deal on the table now will be available later. And again, why would the Cavs wait to pull the trigger on these needs? They need to develop chemistry, waiting for waiting sake.

Of course they didn't have to do these trades, but they are fair and they fill needs that the team had to address.

Then you go on to blame Lebron for everything, which leads me to believe you just don't like Lebron teams, which is fine. It's just affecting you judgment and ability to look at anything clearly. Your only rebuttal for why the trades weren't fair is that the Cavs should have waited (not sure if that is even true).

I like LeBron fine. I've actually been accused of being a lebron homer in the past by jordan-stans. Go through my post history if you don't believe me. But it's also been a noticable thing that the Cavs and Heat in the past screwed up their rosters by doing everything possible to keep him happy. Even the Cavs this year "wasted too many spots on Friends of LeBron who can’t play." Several people have said that Lebron signing in Cleveland was contingent on the Cavs doing whatever necessary to get Love. So it would hardly be the first time that a team jumped the gun and paid too high a price to make a move that Lebron wanted them to make.

You should wait if someone is asking for too high of a price for a player.

I don't assume that every trade will be available later. The Cavs didn't HAVE to trade for Mozgov. If some other team would have offered 2 first round picks, would you have topped them with a 3rd? What if it took a 4th?

We disagree on what the point is where you would back away. Fine. I'm just saying, it's very rare that you see a guy like Mozgov fetch the return that he did.

Only players that lebron brought with him are Miller and Jones. jones got vet minimum and Miller was going to sign for more with Nuggets but he chose Cavs for less. As far as Lebron signing with Cavs , may be the Cavs promised him they would get him Kevin Love if he would sign with them.
Don't make it sound like Lebron was running things when the management very well may have sold him on some promises. Regarding Mogzov trade, I think it's great because he's got great contract for this year and next. When player of lesser skills are getting over paid left and right, Mogzov's contract is a bargain. His contract alone is very appealing and he is a big body with good skill-set on top of it.

[jbk1234]

Are you trolling me? Mozgov has started in a 115 of his 247 games. He is a starter. He is in the highest value positions, he is in his prime and he under cheap contract. Keep saying two first round picks like they are in the lottery. Fair price. I don't know what you even mean when you say "a guy like Mozgov", like that description offers any insight to anyone. It has no inherent meaning.

And I am baffled by the "doing what they could have done tomorrow" statement. If you need a wing defender and a 5, and you can acquire two of the most quality ones that are going to be available, why are we waiting?

You also assume that every deal on the table now will be available later. And again, why would the Cavs wait to pull the trigger on these needs? They need to develop chemistry, waiting for waiting sake.

Of course they didn't have to do these trades, but they are fair and they fill needs that the team had to address.

Then you go on to blame Lebron for everything, which leads me to believe you just don't like Lebron teams, which is fine. It's just affecting you judgment and ability to look at anything clearly. Your only rebuttal for why the trades weren't fair is that the Cavs should have waited (not sure if that is even true).

I like LeBron fine. I've actually been accused of being a lebron homer in the past by jordan-stans. Go through my post history if you don't believe me. But it's also been a noticable thing that the Cavs and Heat in the past screwed up their rosters by doing everything possible to keep him happy. Even the Cavs this year "wasted too many spots on Friends of LeBron who can’t play." Several people have said that Lebron signing in Cleveland was contingent on the Cavs doing whatever necessary to get Love. So it would hardly be the first time that a team jumped the gun and paid too high a price to make a move that Lebron wanted them to make.

You should wait if someone is asking for too high of a price for a player.

I don't assume that every trade will be available later. The Cavs didn't HAVE to trade for Mozgov. If some other team would have offered 2 first round picks, would you have topped them with a 3rd? What if it took a 4th?

We disagree on what the point is where you would back away. Fine. I'm just saying, it's very rare that you see a guy like Mozgov fetch the return that he did.

Only players that lebron brought with him are Miller and Jones. jones got vet minimum and Miller was going to sign for more with Nuggets but he chose Cavs for less. As far as Lebron signing with Cavs , may be the Cavs promised him they would get him Kevin Love if he would sign with them.
Don't make it sound like Lebron was running things when the management very well may have sold him on some promises.

Cavs would not have extended Andy unless LBJ weighed in. More importantly, LBJ could have gone to the FO and said don't sell the farm to clear cap space over a 48 hour period. I'm coming home regardless. Clear the space without mortgaging the future. He could have said I want Love but don't feel like you need to make the trade no matter what. They paid a high price to get the big three together in hurried fashion. He doesn't get to be the most powerful player in the league and then be blameless when his team pays a premium to make him happy.

[Sixerscan]

Which is pretty much what happened in Miami.

Then again, if it wasn't for both Miami and Cleveland doing that, Sixers wouldn't have a top 17 pick coming our way from Miami this year. So I guess I should be thanking LeBron and keeping quiet!

[mab2039]

What happened in Miami? As far as i know they still havent gotten a Center yet which has always been their weakness. Last year Miami didnt even spend money in the offseason instead opted to save money by cutting Miller. Their acquisition last year was Beasley for Vet Minimum, they didnt even use their exception worth 2.8 million.

[mab2039]

When you have Lebron on your team you build to win now not in the future. And i guarantee all teams in the nba would have done the same thing if they had that chance.

[mab2039]

When you have Lebron on your team you build to win now not in the future. And i guarantee all teams in the nba would have done the same thing if they had that chance.

[DowJones]

I really liked what I saw from Mozgov last night. It was nice to see a guy alter shots in the paint. I still think we need 1 more big....either Dally or O'Neal. That way we play Mozgov for 30 min a game and Dally/O'Neal for 10-15 minutes a game. I want to limit the minutes Tristan Thompson spends at center.

[Dupp]

If he plays like he did against golden state he's worth the picks.