GT: Hornets @ Raptors Thu Jan 8th 7:30PM EST

[Braggins]

The fact is that a team with Al as the go to scorer wasn't any better than the Dunlap team that included the likes of Corey Higgins, Tyrus Thomas, Diop, Matt Carroll, Reggie WIlliams, Ben Gordon, Corey Maggette, etc.

Like I said, if you are basing your analysis off of what Dell, Steve Martin, and Stephanie Ready say during the games then I don't know what to tell you.

Of course my analysis is not entirely off of what they say, but I do listen to what Dell says and take it seriously because he is smart, played in the league for 16 years, and really knows what he is talking about.

Thats not even close to what I said... I said our offensive rating with that team was only 2 points higher which means that the Dunlap team scored 2 fewer points per 100 possessions. All I'm doing is stating a fact that you apparently don't understand.

Yeah, that's what you said. There's nothing to misunderstand. I quoted exactly what you said.

Besides, if we were to win 22 more games with the same offensive rating, then those stats would technically indicate that we were a better defensive team with Jefferson on the floor, which may or may not be true.

I'm just saying to base anything purely off stats and not having seen the games is just not the best way to form an solid analysis.

Nice try. You didn't quote exactly what I said. You quoted me out of context by leaving out the part where I indicated I was referring to our offense. Maybe I could have been more clear.

"I judge the effect that Al's scoring prowess has on our team offense by looking at our offensive rating. The fact is that a team with Al as the go to scorer wasn't any better than the Dunlap team that included the likes of Corey Higgins, Tyrus Thomas, Diop, Matt Carroll, Reggie WIlliams, Ben Gordon, Corey Maggette, etc. It isn't a complicated concept. Al didn't improve our offense at all."

Again, I am not saying we were a better team in the Dunlap year than last year. I watched most of the games that season and virtually every game this season. The only thing I am basing off stats is my claim that Al hasn't improved our offense, which is something you can largely determine off of stats and there is no denying that we statistically haven't really improved on offense since Al has been here.

[Diop]

Congrats on the win. Anyone know why Henderson hates us so much? Seems like he lights us up every time we play you guys.

my guess is because he was often compared to Demar, who has since got the bigger contract and a better reputation.
Hendo has always performed better against certain competition, he used to always play well against the Lakers as well because he wants to be Kobe.

Imagine how frustrating it is for us to see him play like a legit starter one game, then go back to mediocre guard when its against a team that doesn't inspire him.

thankfully, this years benching has motivated him somewhat

[Liver_Pooty]

Congrats on the win. Anyone know why Henderson hates us so much? Seems like he lights us up every time we play you guys.

my guess is because he was often compared to Demar, who has since got the bigger contract and a better reputation.
Hendo has always performed better against certain competition, he used to always play well against the Lakers as well because he wants to be Kobe.

Imagine how frustrating it is for us to see him play like a legit starter one game, then go back to mediocre guard when its against a team that doesn't inspire him.

thankfully, this years benching has motivated him somewhat

Henderson seems to be finally turning into a good all around player. His assist have been up dramatically lately. Hes also been killing opposing guards in the post, even showing a couple of nice hook shots the past couple games. He may never learn how to shoot the deep ball, but hes definitely improved in other areas.

[Diop]

Congrats on the win. Anyone know why Henderson hates us so much? Seems like he lights us up every time we play you guys.

my guess is because he was often compared to Demar, who has since got the bigger contract and a better reputation.
Hendo has always performed better against certain competition, he used to always play well against the Lakers as well because he wants to be Kobe.

Imagine how frustrating it is for us to see him play like a legit starter one game, then go back to mediocre guard when its against a team that doesn't inspire him.

thankfully, this years benching has motivated him somewhat

Henderson seems to be finally turning into a good all around player. His assist have been up dramatically lately. Hes also been killing opposing guards in the post, even showing a couple of nice hook shots the past couple games. He may never learn how to shoot the deep ball, but hes definitely improved in other areas.

yeah I think the signing of lance and his benching motivated him.

we were saying the same things at the end of his contract year. "hey, he's finally getting it!"

just cant let him get comfortable

[Liver_Pooty]

my guess is because he was often compared to Demar, who has since got the bigger contract and a better reputation.
Hendo has always performed better against certain competition, he used to always play well against the Lakers as well because he wants to be Kobe.

Imagine how frustrating it is for us to see him play like a legit starter one game, then go back to mediocre guard when its against a team that doesn't inspire him.

thankfully, this years benching has motivated him somewhat

Henderson seems to be finally turning into a good all around player. His assist have been up dramatically lately. Hes also been killing opposing guards in the post, even showing a couple of nice hook shots the past couple games. He may never learn how to shoot the deep ball, but hes definitely improved in other areas.

yeah I think the signing of lance and his benching motivated him.

we were saying the same things at the end of his contract year. "hey, he's finally getting it!"

just cant let him get comfortable

When Lance comes back he has to come off the bench. Him and Walker have been pretty dynamic together lately. Give Lance 27-29 minutes or so off the bench as our 6th man and cut Neal and Hairston out of the rotation unless absolutely necessary.

[AttitudeAjusta]

Nice try. You didn't quote exactly what I said. You quoted me out of context by leaving out the part where I indicated I was referring to our offense. Maybe I could have been more clear.

"I judge the effect that Al's scoring prowess has on our team offense by looking at our offensive rating. The fact is that a team with Al as the go to scorer wasn't any better than the Dunlap team that included the likes of Corey Higgins, Tyrus Thomas, Diop, Matt Carroll, Reggie WIlliams, Ben Gordon, Corey Maggette, etc. It isn't a complicated concept. Al didn't improve our offense at all."

What is there to quote out of context? The only thing I left out is how you judge our team by misleading stats, and that you think Jefferson didn't improve our offense, which he did.

Again, I am not saying we were a better team in the Dunlap year than last year. I watched most of the games that season and virtually every game this season. The only thing I am basing off stats is my claim that Al hasn't improved our offense, which is something you can largely determine off of stats and there is no denying that we statistically haven't really improved on offense since Al has been here.

Again, statistically. But in reality, if you would have watched any of the few wins we had during the Silas/Dunlap years, you would have seen exactly how offensively anemic we were. Ask anyone who actually had to watch those painful years. No matter how good defense we played, we had no reliable scorers and could not score a basket to save our lives except for maybe Kemba.

That turned around when Jefferson came. It was night and day difference between the LOLcat years and last year. He almost single-handedly improved our offense dramatically and opened up our 3pt shooters that year so much that we went from sub .500 (before he started playing) to going competitive with contender-caliber teams and eventually 7th seed in the playoffs by the end of the year, which was great considering our start was as slow as it is this year.

That may not be the case this year, so it's not a bad idea to explore other possible options

[Braggins]

Nice try. You didn't quote exactly what I said. You quoted me out of context by leaving out the part where I indicated I was referring to our offense. Maybe I could have been more clear.

"I judge the effect that Al's scoring prowess has on our team offense by looking at our offensive rating. The fact is that a team with Al as the go to scorer wasn't any better than the Dunlap team that included the likes of Corey Higgins, Tyrus Thomas, Diop, Matt Carroll, Reggie WIlliams, Ben Gordon, Corey Maggette, etc. It isn't a complicated concept. Al didn't improve our offense at all."

What is there to quote out of context? The only thing I left out is how you judge our team by misleading stats, and that you think Jefferson didn't improve our offense, which he did.

Again, I am not saying we were a better team in the Dunlap year than last year. I watched most of the games that season and virtually every game this season. The only thing I am basing off stats is my claim that Al hasn't improved our offense, which is something you can largely determine off of stats and there is no denying that we statistically haven't really improved on offense since Al has been here.

Again, statistically. But in reality, if you would have watched any of the few wins we had during the Silas/Dunlap years, you would have seen exactly how offensively anemic we were. Ask anyone who actually had to watch those painful years. No matter how good defense we played, we had no reliable scorers and could not score a basket to save our lives except for maybe Kemba.

That turned around when Jefferson came. It was night and day difference between the LOLcat years and last year. He almost single-handedly improved our offense dramatically and opened up our 3pt shooters that year so much that we went from sub .500 (before he started playing) to going competitive with contender-caliber teams and eventually 7th seed in the playoffs by the end of the year, which was great considering our start was as slow as it is this year.

That may not be the case this year, so it's not a bad idea to explore other possible options

Ummm, so points scored per possession is a misleading way to judge how many points a team scores? I'm not sure why I have to say this again but I watch almost all of our games. I have been since Kemba was drafted. Our offense scored at a rate of two points per 100 hundred possessions more in Al's first year than the Dunlap year. We scored a little over three points per game more. This season so far we are averaging almost the exact same points per/100 possessions as the Dunlap year. Our offense didn't dramatically improve when Al came. It very slightly improved unless you have some other measure of teams offense than the amount of points they score. I'm sorry you don't understand this.

Also, after the Dunlap year we didn't just simply add Al. We added Al and we got rid of all those players I mentioned before and replaced them with serviceable veterans. All that equated to a very anemic but slightly better offense. Alfense has really never been good here and you only believe that because it was good enough to win with last season due to our elite defense.

[AttitudeAjusta]

What those stats aren't showing you is that they're watered down by our poor early season stats, and not indicitive of the turnaround that happened as soon as Jefferson got healthy midway through the season. Is there a way to look up changes in that stat by month or season? That would probably tell a bigger story.

Contrary to what you're saying, our offense especially improved so much last year, we actually had a reliable go-to scorer for the first time in our franchise history and he was almost named an All-Star if it weren't due to his late start.

Alfense worked amazingly last year when we had all the pieces. I believe that because I saw it with my own eyes, heard people on here talking about it, as well as analysts, writers, and NBA junkies everywhere talking about how big of a turnaround we had.

However, it's not working as well this year because we let a lot of those pieces go amongst other things. Regardless, it was still a night and day difference in every aspect of our play including offense. I don't care what you make out of those stats, we had a really hard time scoring a basket before. When we got Al, we scored with ease, whether it was him, Kemba, or the 3pt snipers. We also didn't need to score as much because our defense was so good, but our offense was far from anemic last year.

Can we exist without Jefferson? I definitely think so.

I'm just not so delusional that I think he wasn't a factor in our 100% season win improvement we had last year from the previous.

[yosemiteben]

"Al only does bad things and every situation he is in is worse off because of him."

[stinger14]

Did signing Al help the offense? Sure it helped, have you looked at the roster from the Dunlap year? I mean Hendo was our leading scorer, and there are only about 6 of those guys that are even still on an NBA team. However, it really wasn't that much better, but the improvements were due to many factors, one of which was how many teams were tanking for the super draft.

Signing Al was a good thing for this franchise, and he has had a hand in the improvement. However, it reached its potential last year and it's time to move on. Team is younger, more athletic, and plays better without Al at this point. At this point we should explore trade options on him. If that doesn't work out, then he should come off the bench to play with second unit. There he could be the go to guy on offense instead of Neal, Hairston, and Roberts building houses on a nightly basis.

[Braggins]

What those stats aren't showing you is that they're watered down by our poor early season stats, and not indicitive of the turnaround that happened as soon as Jefferson got healthy midway through the season. Is there a way to look up changes in that stat by month or season? That would probably tell a bigger story.

Contrary to what you're saying, our offense especially improved so much last year, we actually had a reliable go-to scorer for the first time in our franchise history and he was almost named an All-Star if it weren't due to his late start.

Alfense worked amazingly last year when we had all the pieces. I believe that because I saw it with my own eyes, heard people on here talking about it, as well as analysts, writers, and NBA junkies everywhere talking about how big of a turnaround we had.

However, it's not working as well this year because we let a lot of those pieces go amongst other things. Regardless, it was still a night and day difference in every aspect of our play including offense. I don't care what you make out of those stats, we had a really hard time scoring a basket before. When we got Al, we scored with ease, whether it was him, Kemba, or the 3pt snipers. We also didn't need to score as much because our defense was so good, but our offense was far from anemic last year.

Can we exist without Jefferson? I definitely think so.

I'm just not so delusional that I think he wasn't a factor in our 100% season win improvement we had last year from the previous.

I acknowledged that it worked well in the second half of the season when he went on that crazy run where he was literally unstoppable. I think we were in the top half of the league at least.

[AttitudeAjusta]

What those stats aren't showing you is that they're watered down by our poor early season stats, and not indicitive of the turnaround that happened as soon as Jefferson got healthy midway through the season. Is there a way to look up changes in that stat by month or season? That would probably tell a bigger story.

Contrary to what you're saying, our offense especially improved so much last year, we actually had a reliable go-to scorer for the first time in our franchise history and he was almost named an All-Star if it weren't due to his late start.

Alfense worked amazingly last year when we had all the pieces. I believe that because I saw it with my own eyes, heard people on here talking about it, as well as analysts, writers, and NBA junkies everywhere talking about how big of a turnaround we had.

However, it's not working as well this year because we let a lot of those pieces go amongst other things. Regardless, it was still a night and day difference in every aspect of our play including offense. I don't care what you make out of those stats, we had a really hard time scoring a basket before. When we got Al, we scored with ease, whether it was him, Kemba, or the 3pt snipers. We also didn't need to score as much because our defense was so good, but our offense was far from anemic last year.

Can we exist without Jefferson? I definitely think so.

I'm just not so delusional that I think he wasn't a factor in our 100% season win improvement we had last year from the previous.

I acknowledged that it worked well in the second half of the season when he went on that crazy run where he was literally unstoppable. I think we were in the top half of the league at least.

Wouldn't that be awesome to go on another crazy run from here until the end of the season

[LamarMatic7]

but our offense was worlds better last year when we were hitting 3's left and right and destroying teams down low than it was during our losing and dunlap years of chucking up worthless shots as the shot clock expires.

I guess I also must have not watched games last year since I seemingly missed out on us raining 3s on everybody.

[AttitudeAjusta]

but our offense was worlds better last year when we were hitting 3's left and right and destroying teams down low than it was during our losing and dunlap years of chucking up worthless shots as the shot clock expires.

I guess I also must have not watched games last year since I seemingly missed out on us raining 3s on everybody.

We may not have been "raining" threes like Golden State, but our 3pt percentage was the highest it's been since 2008. It was also the first year I remember that we had any consistent 3 point shooters where that was mainly their role, although I didn't start watching and following until the 2009 season, so maybe there were others before that

[LamarMatic7]

but our offense was worlds better last year when we were hitting 3's left and right and destroying teams down low than it was during our losing and dunlap years of chucking up worthless shots as the shot clock expires.

I guess I also must have not watched games last year since I seemingly missed out on us raining 3s on everybody.

We may not have been "raining" threes like Golden State, but our 3pt percentage was the highest it's been since 2008. It was also the first year I remember that we had any consistent 3 point shooters where that was mainly their role, although I didn't start watching and following until the 2009 season, so maybe there were others before that

fantastic. we were better than the worst team ever and some teams without shooters.

[LamarMatic7]

I also have the feeling that if AttitudeAjusta had made that statement a couple of years ago (about us not having any players whose role is to shoot threes), the Matt Carroll army would have killed him.

but, eh.... seems like the people around here have chanced.

[gehenherzog]

It case anyone is interested..we made just over 6 3's a game last year... hardly "raining 3s"

[NCHeels2008]

Outrebounded the much larger Raps. And now CHA leads the league in defensive rebounding. How we doing that when we're so undersized? Great silver lining!

Man that last minute inbounds pass by Marvin was just dumb, almost cost us. And Roberts plays so weak. Interesting that Cliff had Roberts in for Neal at game end, but that backup PG spot is a problem going forward.

As much confusion as Vonleh caused in the first half, it's clear he's not overmatched physically. His little flurry at the end of Q3, a near putback slam - busting up a pass on d, and then digging for the o-board and scoring vs. Patrick Patterson - showed promise.

Hendo did a lot of phenomenal things tonight. It struck me that several of them - the drive and dish to a cutting MKG for the slam, and the attempted dunk in Q4 that got him to the line, for example - would not have been possible if Al had been camped out in his usual spot in the left post.

Also, I hate Valanciunas's lumberjack beard.

When Lance gets back we could roll with a Lance/PJ backcourt off the bench if you wanna avoid both Neal and Roberts

[AttitudeAjusta]

I also have the feeling that if AttitudeAjusta had made that statement a couple of years ago (about us not having any players whose role is to shoot threes), the Matt Carroll army would have killed him.

but, eh.... seems like the people around here have chanced.

I forgot about Matt Carroll...

Please don't tell him