Leafs 2014-15 Season Thread

whysoserious · Post #141 » by **whysoserious** » Wed Jan 7, 2015 8:40 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:The trade Phaneuf/Kessel movement is total media driven/fan hysteria. I hate Phaneuf more than probably anyone on here, but he's still a good defensemen. I don't want to keep chasing out talent because of bull**** "accountability" issues. We've chased out so many players because we thought they weren't tough enough, didn't play hard enough, Muskoka 5 and all that. It makes for great talk radio, but the net result is we have never improved significantly when these guys get shuffled off for pennies on the dollar. The only real hard decision that would make sense is a total gut job to tank for McDavid. But, I think we're sitting in a playoff spot right now and you know that Bell/Rogers/Tanenbaum are not going to sign off on throwing the season away. The time to do that was probably in the off-season, anyway.

It sounds like Nonis is just hanging on by a thread and that Mark Hunter will take over. Maybe they're waiting for Leweike to officially leave town.

How is it media and fan hysteria? Most people, well reasonable people anyway, acknowledge they are good players. But they are overpaid and being asked to fill roles they will never live up to. That's the problem. The Leafs don't have enough talent around them and how are they going to add talent to them when you've got them, Lupul, Bozak, Clarkson all being way overpaid?

ATLTimekeeper · Post #142 » by **ATLTimekeeper** » Wed Jan 7, 2015 9:12 pm

whysoserious wrote:How is it media and fan hysteria? Most people, well reasonable people anyway, acknowledge they are good players. But they are overpaid and being asked to fill roles they will never live up to. That's the problem. The Leafs don't have enough talent around them and how are they going to add talent to them when you've got them, Lupul, Bozak, Clarkson all being way overpaid?

All bloated contracts can be balanced out by finding good, cheap players. That's always the case in any cap sport.

whysoserious · Post #143 » by **whysoserious** » Wed Jan 7, 2015 10:50 pm

Good and cheap can be found, the Leafs have done that on the third and fourth line the past year and this year. But you're not finding high end talent that way are you? That's what the Leafs need and don't have so no I don't believe good cheap players will help this core take a step forward and eventually towards elite.

LLJ · Post #144 » by **LLJ** » Thu Jan 8, 2015 11:45 pm

While I do think the witchhunt for Kessel is a bit overboard, I totally believe that he can be a hard to coach when things aren't going well, as it is in this case. That's the problem with this city, they think this is the greatest hockey market on earth and that players should feel priviledged to play here. The fact is, despite being a big market, the truth is nobody really wants to play here because of that attitude. The Leafs media are like the Knicks media--they have an overinflated opinion of themselves and their "market" when they're probably a big part of why we seem to never be able to land a star free agent in his prime. Whenever we run some talented player out of town, the media here don't realize that other NHL players are actually watching, and filing these facts away in their head when they're free agents.

bballsparkin · Post #145 » by **bballsparkin** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:45 pm

What's the point of trading Kessel now? The Leafs are too late to get in on this draft. With his contract and disposition I imagine he won't get a fair return either. Giving Phanuef that contract was criminal. I'm a Canuck fan and never dug Nonis. Firing Carlyle was the right move but I don't think it's on him. The guy loves defense and couldn't get the team to buy in. That's on the players imo. Even the Knicks are starting to get it right by going for a high pick. I've had fun laughing at the Leafs but I hope they turn it around at some point. My one friend calls me a Leaf hater but that's not true. I loved the team when Belfour was here. That was a team I could support. But since I've been living in Toronto it's been the same garbage team with no defense and overpaid players. Not sure how they can turn it around but I'd guess stop overpaying mediocre talent would be a good start. At least your drafts have been better lately.

stealthmode · Post #146 » by **stealthmode** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:18 pm

thank you TML for the Lowry all star tweet! much appreciated

Post #147 » by **GYBE** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:15 pm

The Leafs looked better against Columbus than any game I've ever seen under Carlyle (Buffalo games not counted).

Ray Ferraro on radio today: "I don't want to overreact but the game against CBJ was different than any Leaf game I've seen. They looked really good to me"

The Leafs are actually playing a defensive system now. They actually challenge teams in the neutral zone and don't let them cleanly enter the Leafs zone with the puck repeatedly. There were elements of the trap in terms of limiting opposing rushes. It's a much more boring brand of hockey actually, but far more effective if you care about winning.

I don't think people realize how bad Carlyle is as a coach. IMMEDIATELY after he left the Ducks, their possession and wins dramatically increased and they've been awesome ever since. When he came to Toronto, every player had worse possession numbers than they did under Ron Wilson. Now that he's gone, suddenly the Leafs can control play. It's not a coincidence.

Anyways, William Nylander was called up to the Marlies. I imagine he'll stay there all year. It would definitely be worth it to check out some Marlies games this year. Super cheap, get to watch the Leafs best prospect in forever.

whysoserious · Post #148 » by **whysoserious** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:32 pm

Ya, that CBJ game was probably the best performance I've seen out of them for 3-4 years now.

I'll believe it when I see it over the long haul. I still don't have a ton of faith in this core but we'll see. You always get a boost at the beginning of a coaching change, it's a matter of sustaining it and the players committing to defense when they really haven't ever done.

Brew666 · Post #149 » by **Brew666** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:28 pm

I'm in the same boat as Whysoserious b/c I have very little faith in this group. This group/core is a fringe playoff team in my eyes still regardless who the coach is.

Are there chances better to make the playoffs? Maybe, but that's about it in my eyes. Does anyone see this move as something that will project them beyond the playoff fringe group and into the contender group?

Regardless of the group, I like what I've seen/heard about Horacek. I think he has a real shot of being named head coach next year too. I think Babcock is the dream but probably unlikely seeing the roster makeup of the respective clubs. Horacek is a good communicator and seems like he can implement an identity as a defensive team.

Post #150 » by **GYBE** » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:13 am

ESPN prospect guru Corey Pronman named William Nylander the best prospect in hockey.

Link

whysoserious · Post #151 » by **whysoserious** » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:14 pm

GYBE wrote:ESPN prospect guru Corey Pronman named William Nylander the best prospect in hockey.

Link

Would have been nice to have drafted him last year and had a clear vision of rebuilding (meaning not signing both Kessel and Phaneuf or exploring trading them in the off-season). Imagine being in the sweepstakes of McDavid for real and Nylander and though many have given up on Gardiner, him and Reilly set up the D nice during a rebuild. Bernier is still young.

If you were to get McDavid or even one of the top picks, that gives you a solid core of 6 younger guys (Bernier being the oldest) to start getting excited and build around.

BramptonYute · Post #152 » by **BramptonYute** » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:14 pm

Best case scenario, the Leafs continue to suck, end up with a top 5 pick, Nonis is fired, core gets changed up, Babcock comes here. Of course not all of those will come to fruition, but I sure hope they do.

Also, I dont see Gardiner being a significant part of our defense unless he shows he capable of actually playing defense. Offensively he hasnt been that special either. But I do believe he's a good possesion player. Wouldnt give up on him yet, but he needs to make some strides forward this season and next.

CptLouHefner · Post #153 » by **CptLouHefner** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:17 pm

Why on earth would Babcock want to coach this garbage team? We're delusional if we think he's coming here next year.

whysoserious · Post #154 » by **whysoserious** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:52 pm

CptLouHefner wrote:Why on earth would Babcock want to coach this garbage team? We're delusional if we think he's coming here next year.

There is always going to be the allure of being the guy that came and got it right in Toronto. You win here and you'll be a legend forever, not just here but the recognition that goes beyond Toronto for doing it.

I get the rationale of why he wouldn't and the pressure but there's always that other side.

As for the team, amazing road trip, played a better puck possession game, limited shots but scored 1 goal in 4 games and that goal was from a defensemen.

whysoserious · Post #155 » by **whysoserious** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:11 am

1 goal in 4 games and 2 periods and that goal came from a defensemen....

BramptonYute · Post #156 » by **BramptonYute** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:35 am

I really hope we start selling off some players and get some good value back for them.

whysoserious · Post #157 » by **whysoserious** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:58 pm

Nored wrote:I really hope we start selling off some players and get some good value back for them.

Even if you don't get good value back, just move some guys. Clear salary. You don't want players coming back that will work hard under Horachek the rest of the season because somehow that's a recipe for moving back up slowly in the standings but missing the playoffs.

You want picks and prospects that can go to the Marlies or still in the CHL. Sign a bunch of US college guys late in the year (not sure rules around that). You're going to have to take salary back, just make sure they are guys close to retirement or something.

BramptonYute · Post #158 » by **BramptonYute** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:38 pm

whysoserious wrote:
Nored wrote:I really hope we start selling off some players and get some good value back for them.

Even if you don't get good value back, just move some guys. Clear salary. You don't want players coming back that will work hard under Horachek the rest of the season because somehow that's a recipe for moving back up slowly in the standings but missing the playoffs.

You want picks and prospects that can go to the Marlies or still in the CHL. Sign a bunch of US college guys late in the year (not sure rules around that). You're going to have to take salary back, just make sure they are guys close to retirement or something.

I think you should sell off the pending UFA's for whatever they can get. But when it comes to a guy like Lupul, you have to wait it out and try get some real value back for him. Obviously im not expecting much for Lupul, but he is a god foward, when healthy. I remember a rumour came out that the Leafs and Kings were close to a Lupul for Toffoli deal, but the Kings ended up going for Gaborik. That would have been a really nice deal for us.

Ideally, you move out the pending ufa's like Franson, Santo, Winnik before the deadline, and then explore trades involving guys like Lupul, Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner at the draft.

whysoserious · Post #159 » by **whysoserious** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:58 pm

Nored wrote:I think you should sell off the pending UFA's for whatever they can get. But when it comes to a guy like Lupul, you have to wait it out and try get some real value back for him. Obviously im not expecting much for Lupul, but he is a god foward, when healthy. I remember a rumour came out that the Leafs and Kings were close to a Lupul for Toffoli deal, but the Kings ended up going for Gaborik. That would have been a really nice deal for us.

Ideally, you move out the pending ufa's like Franson, Santo, Winnik before the deadline, and then explore trades involving guys like Lupul, Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner at the draft.

The difference is Franson can almost give you what Phaneuf does now, why not keep him. Santo is not a bad piece going forward. Waiting longer and longer to keep guys thinking their value is going to go up is just wasting the season even more.

Sure, they could play their value up, but how much did you hurt yourself this year. The likelihood of landing a pick that gets McDavid is slim already, why try and keep guys that are going to negatively impact the remote chance at him.

Plus, these guys are all on long-term deals, you're not going to find much value anyways. It's time to just admit defeat, maximize what we can now and cut bait and move on.

Post #160 » by **Cyrus** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:49 pm

The problem is Core, there is a reason why Boston got rid of Kessel, he's a good player, a great player, but not one you can win with. Same argument can be made with Ovichkin, amazing talent, but can you build around him. Basically if Kessel is your top guy, your not going far. IF Kessel is your 2a, 2b and you got someone better, more well rounded, a leader, then sure...

Same thing can be said with Dion. He's just not a winner, when in his career was he a "winner", when he played team canada jr. team? Dion isn't a bad player, but if he's your top defence men, and is being paid like top defence, then your in real trouble. If this wasn't a cap league, and he was your 2nd line defence man, but getting paid like top defence man, you can get away with it, but this isn't.