Official Trade Thread: New Year, New Thread, New Laughs

[Revived]

I actually have less confidence on Hornacek this season. As a motivator, he is good, but actual plays and Xs/Os, he is yet to prove he is "good". This season, the wins primarily came from players getting hot. Giving up big leads, not calling time outs, not yanking out players taking terrible shots etc.

McD I have FULL trust.... Hornacek?... I've lost a little bit this season..

You forgot the fact that our offense relies entirely on transition basketball and ISO ball.

[batsmasher]

You forgot the fact that our offense relies entirely on transition basketball and ISO ball.

I completely disagree on the ISO. The only time ISO ball is part of our offense is when we get a mismatch.

[Revived]

You forgot the fact that our offense relies entirely on transition basketball and ISO ball.

I completely disagree on the ISO. The only time ISO ball is part of our offense is when we get a mismatch.

I guess Green always has a matchup every single night then?

Same with Marcus Morris and to some extent, Bledsoe & IT?

[Moochthemonkey]

lol we would've traded for Bledsoe for essentially nothing if this happened.

Suns trade Jared Dudley to Clippers for Eric Bledsoe.
Clips trade Jared Dudley to Bucks for Carlos Delfino.
Bucks trade Jared Dudley to Suns for Gerald Green.
Clips traded Eric Bledsoe for Carlos Delfino.
Bucks traded Carlos Delfino for Gerald Green.
Suns traded Gerald Green for Eric Bledsoe.
Suns get Eric Bledsoe. Clippers get Carlos Delfino. Bucks get Gerald Green.
Tradeception...

[batsmasher]

I guess Green always has a matchup every single night then?

Same with Marcus Morris and to some extent, Bledsoe & IT?

Absolutely, and it's not by design and not Horny's Xs/Os problem. It's entirely down to the players. Horny's offense is designed to create bunches of opportunities for players to shoot. More often than not the Green/Mook type will take that opportunity even if it isn't the correct one.

Horny's system is A-OK we just sometimes don't have high enough IQ players to work in it. If you believe otherwise all you have to do is look at the pedigree of the players vs Horny.

[TASTIC]

Thomas
Wright
GGreen
Shavlik
Plumlee

for

Bosh
Cole

Works in the trade checker...who would say no?

Suns roll out:

Len
Bosh
Tucker
Dragic
Bledsoe
----
Barron (would have to sign him as no other C)
Markieff
Mook
Cole
Ennis
Goodwin
Warren

Heat roll with:

Whiteside
Wright
Deng
Wade
Thomas
---
Anderson
Plumlee
Granger
Green
Chalmers

Meh, I'm just playing but I like the idea of Kieff/Mook killing second units again, though fresh off Kieff's career night is a bit rough haha

[NavLDO]

That is the problem right there, saying this team is rebuilt. This team is rebuilt, BUT THEY LACK STARS! How can you possibly find or develop ones when you play a bunch of veterans that are in their prime and you have locked them up to long term deals that hurts your financial flexibility. Teams rarely find stars drafting with the 14th and 15th pick over and over again. We may have one in Warren, but he never gets to play, so who knows.

You are right, it doesn't have to be 1st or 30th, but how is playing Green, Thomas, and Tucker and ending up 9th seed, any worse than playing Goodwin, Ennis, and Warren and ending up 10th or 11th seed. I will be honest, I don't mind Warren and Ennis not being in the rotation, its Goodwin not getting a shot that bothers me. So many nights, the Suns let Green and others chuck up 3's and no one drives to the basket. Those are the times, Goodwin should get some burn and allowed to do what he does best, get to the hole. He is in his 2nd year, and by all accounts has an excellent work ethic and is a gym rat, the Suns need to find a way to get him a consistent 10 minutes a night.

Not sure if anyone's already pointed this out to you or not yet, but we aren't the 9th seed. I find it hilarious that you have the nerve to call them (I'm one of those "give it a couple of years" crowd) hilarious, when you've given up on the team at mid-season and don't even know what seed we are. Now that's funny! Thank goodness you aren't in the Suns FO--part of the decision making crew.

Well, your plan is brilliant! Let's give up on trying to make the playoffs so Goodwin can get more playing time over players that are currently better than he is. He's barely 20 YO! He probably needs--wait for it--a couple of years to develop. He would get playing time if he deserves it--same with Warren, same with Ennis. We are currently closer to the 7th seed than we are the 9th.

Now, once we are eliminated from Playoff contention, then sure, play the younger guys more, but until then, how 'bout we don't just give up our Playoff slot, eh?

And additionally, plenty of star players are found at the 14th pick and later. Plus the fact that we own a high lotto pick about to be conveyed to us in the next draft or two. So our chances are pretty good we'll find, at a minimum, a solid contributor.

[Frank Lee]

I guess Green always has a matchup every single night then?

Same with Marcus Morris and to some extent, Bledsoe & IT?

Absolutely, and it's not by design and not Horny's Xs/Os problem. It's entirely down to the players. Horny's offense is designed to create bunches of opportunities for players to shoot. More often than not the Green/Mook type will take that opportunity even if it isn't the correct one.

Horny's system is A-OK we just sometimes don't have high enough IQ players to work in it. If you believe otherwise all you have to do is look at the pedigree of the players vs Horny.

That might explain the disgusted look on his face through out the game. The question is.... what is he/FO going to do about ?

Trade deadline is Feb 19.... lots of time for spankulation. I'd say, if GGreens's minutes are cut down, McDo will deal him for a second rounder, just to assist him in his contract push. Especially if Tucker keeps balling. Tucker has been a GD menace lately. No longer stuck in the corner. Don't know if it is by design, but he certainly isn't offensively bashful. Could be tied to batasmash's comment.

[carey]

I actually have less confidence on Hornacek this season. As a motivator, he is good, but actual plays and Xs/Os, he is yet to prove he is "good". This season, the wins primarily came from players getting hot. Giving up big leads, not calling time outs, not yanking out players taking terrible shots etc.

McD I have FULL trust.... Hornacek?... I've lost a little bit this season..

I think it's impossible to tell because there have been so many times the players on the floor flat out aren't running plays being called. This has been noted by Coro, Petersen, and King numerous times. I'm surprised Hornacek has any hair left at this point.

[carey]

There has to be red flags if a team like Philly, who is in desperate need of talent, is trying to dump a player that early into his rookie deal.

[bwgood77]

Thomas
Wright
GGreen
Shavlik
Plumlee

for

Bosh
Cole

Works in the trade checker...who would say no?

Suns roll out:

Len
Bosh
Tucker
Dragic
Bledsoe
----
Barron (would have to sign him as no other C)
Markieff
Mook
Cole
Ennis
Goodwin
Warren

Heat roll with:

Whiteside
Wright
Deng
Wade
Thomas
---
Anderson
Plumlee
Granger
Green
Chalmers

Meh, I'm just playing but I like the idea of Kieff/Mook killing second units again, though fresh off Kieff's career night is a bit rough haha

Miami says no. After convincing Bosh to stay there for a max, they are not going to deal him. For one, it would piss off Wade. Now in my opinion it would be a smart thing to do, but they are not going to go into some sort of tank mode as long as Wade is around. Now if they can trade both somehow (I don't know if they would trade Wade or if he has value) potentially, but I imagine they'd want a ton of draft picks.

When teams have cornerstones, they are not going to trade them, particularly if they are in the markets like Miami and NY with Riley and Phil and will want to build instant contenders. NY isn't going to trade Melo either because although they are trading dead weight now, they are doing it to clear cap space and to get a good pick this year. They don't own a pick next year so they will hope to find premier free agents this summer to add to Melo. If you can convice a big time star to sign with you, you don't trade him. The Lakers, Knicks and Heat desperately wanted to get any premier free agents they could and they will do that every year. These guys simply are not available.

[bwgood77]

There has to be red flags if a team like Philly, who is in desperate need of talent, is trying to dump a player that early into his rookie deal.

I take it you are talking about MCW? I read reports on that too. I think it's partially because Hinkie is not as smart as he thinks he is. For one, there is not a market for point guards (though ones on rookie deals would be more attractive to most). He is a guy that the Lakers or Knicks might want, but neither can afford to give up a bunch of picks for him. That leaves Miami, who might give up picks, though I think they already gave away this year's pick.

[bigfoot]

I actually have less confidence on Hornacek this season. As a motivator, he is good, but actual plays and Xs/Os, he is yet to prove he is "good". This season, the wins primarily came from players getting hot. Giving up big leads, not calling time outs, not yanking out players taking terrible shots etc.

McD I have FULL trust.... Hornacek?... I've lost a little bit this season..

Holy crap you have no idea what your talking about. Horny has always been an Xs / Os guy. Even when he was playing. Go read #11 on this link

https://jazzfanatical.wordpress.com/201 ... -assisted/

John Stockton thinks you don't know shat !!

Wow way to go on the attack.

Do you watch games? Surely you do.
How many set plays do the Suns run? in comparison to other X and O teams?

Hornacek may have been an Xs and Os guy in JAZZ, but in Phoenix, he is yet to prove that or show it consistently. The team certainly doesnt show it, and the team we see on the court represent his coaching a lot.

Green plays 20 mins a game and in that 20 mins, he takes contested shots within the first 10 seconds, and he's not the only one.
You'll probably mention that shots taken early in the shot clock, go in at a higher percentage crap, which has merit if its in transition or SSOL Suns type offense, but I'm talking about players trying to score on their man individually as opposed to rotating it to the open man as per Xs and Os.

Now, as I mentioned MULTIPLE times already, either Hornacek is just really calm and he does plan a lot of Xs and Os.. BUT his team simply ignores it... OR he just lets them play/improvise majority of the time. I believe its a bit of both...
And that doesnt contradict my statement and MY OPINION above. And it won't change, I don't care about what YOU think, I'm entitled to my opinion.


I didnt say Hornacek CAN'T be a good coach, I think he has the accolades and intellect to excel at it... but I'm simply not seeing it consistently applied. And again, if its a matter of players ignoring him... consistently... then that's an even worse issue.

I would say if the Suns don't have a fast break opportunity then they always run a half court set. Horny rarely calls the play ... its the PG's job. But to shoot down your claim about Horny's offense being so bad ... the Suns have the sixth best offensive rating in the league and the fifth best effective field goal percentage. Clearly something is being done right but people aren't seeing it in the games.

To me a lot of it is seeing the full play. For example, Steve Nash would run PnR with Frye/Gortat often. The big would switch onto Nash. At that point it becomes ISO basketball because the PnR created a mismatch. Nash would dribble the ball at the top of the key and either backup and shoot over the big or drive by him for a layup or assist. We all loved this play and I see this happen often with Bledsoe and IT. They wave off Plumlee or Len after the switch. Mainly because neither of our bigs are very competent with their backs to the basket and need to move their big azzes out of the way to give the PG room to operate (let's hope Len develops this part of his game). Also, we watched Kief post up just outside of the key in the Cavs game time-after-time. Is this not a set play? If the defending PF is slow footed Kief has a mismatch and should try to take advantage of the player. As Kief matures and other teams start doubling he will have to make the extra pass. Still this is part of the Suns offense. Is it ISO ball? If so people around here would have hated having Duncan or Barkley on our team playing in the low block all the time. Basketball (like football) is about creating mismatches ... height or speed. If the offense finds that mismatch it is gonna be ISO ball which looks a lot like improvisation. Sorry to tell you but basketball has always been played that way ... find and exploit the mismatch. When our guys who are in the mismatch learn to make the extra pass as defensive help comes ... you will start seeing the ball movement you desire.

The real problem is people complain too damn much around here when things aren't going perfectly. If I wanted that I'd tune into CNN and Fox news all the time.

[Jdiddy701]

Does anybody know how to watch Bakersfield game that starts at 10am? I heard something about YouTube?


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[bwgood77]

Holy crap you have no idea what your talking about. Horny has always been an Xs / Os guy. Even when he was playing. Go read #11 on this link

https://jazzfanatical.wordpress.com/201 ... -assisted/

John Stockton thinks you don't know shat !!

Wow way to go on the attack.

Do you watch games? Surely you do.
How many set plays do the Suns run? in comparison to other X and O teams?

Hornacek may have been an Xs and Os guy in JAZZ, but in Phoenix, he is yet to prove that or show it consistently. The team certainly doesnt show it, and the team we see on the court represent his coaching a lot.

Green plays 20 mins a game and in that 20 mins, he takes contested shots within the first 10 seconds, and he's not the only one.
You'll probably mention that shots taken early in the shot clock, go in at a higher percentage crap, which has merit if its in transition or SSOL Suns type offense, but I'm talking about players trying to score on their man individually as opposed to rotating it to the open man as per Xs and Os.

Now, as I mentioned MULTIPLE times already, either Hornacek is just really calm and he does plan a lot of Xs and Os.. BUT his team simply ignores it... OR he just lets them play/improvise majority of the time. I believe its a bit of both...
And that doesnt contradict my statement and MY OPINION above. And it won't change, I don't care about what YOU think, I'm entitled to my opinion.


I didnt say Hornacek CAN'T be a good coach, I think he has the accolades and intellect to excel at it... but I'm simply not seeing it consistently applied. And again, if its a matter of players ignoring him... consistently... then that's an even worse issue.

I would say if the Suns don't have a fast break opportunity then they always run a half court set. Horny rarely calls the play ... its the PG's job. But to shoot down your claim about Horny's offense being so bad ... the Suns have the sixth best offensive rating in the league and the fifth best effective field goal percentage. Clearly something is being done right but people aren't seeing it in the games.

To me a lot of it is seeing the full play. For example, Steve Nash would run PnR with Frye/Gortat often. The big would switch onto Nash. At that point it becomes ISO basketball because the PnR created a mismatch. Nash would dribble the ball at the top of the key and either backup and shoot over the big or drive by him for a layup or assist. We all loved this play and I see this happen often with Bledsoe and IT. They wave off Plumlee or Len after the switch. Mainly because neither of our bigs are very competent with their backs to the basket and need to move their big azzes out of the way to give the PG room to operate (let's hope Len develops this part of his game). Also, we watched Kief post up just outside of the key in the Cavs game time-after-time. Is this not a set play? If the defending PF is slow footed Kief has a mismatch and should try to take advantage of the player. As Kief matures and other teams start doubling he will have to make the extra pass. Still this is part of the Suns offense. Is it ISO ball? If so people around here would have hated having Duncan or Barkley on our team playing in the low block all the time. Basketball (like football) is about creating mismatches ... height or speed. If the offense finds that mismatch it is gonna be ISO ball which looks a lot like improvisation. Sorry to tell you but basketball has always been played that way ... find and exploit the mismatch. When our guys who are in the mismatch learn to make the extra pass as defensive help comes ... you will start seeing the ball movement you desire.

The real problem is people complain too damn much around here when things aren't going perfectly. If I wanted that I'd tune into CNN and Fox news all the time.

I think it depends on the coach he is letting influence his style the most. Sloan was an X/O guy. Cotton was more of a run run run guy. One problem is we don't have anyone nearly as talented as KJ was, so it's tough to completely replicate that. And he really solely ran that offense perfectly.

[Synyster9]

Does anybody know how to watch Bakersfield game that starts at 10am? I heard something about YouTube?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

https://www.youtube.com/user/nbadleague ... nbadleague

[bigfoot]

Wow way to go on the attack.

Do you watch games? Surely you do.
How many set plays do the Suns run? in comparison to other X and O teams?

Hornacek may have been an Xs and Os guy in JAZZ, but in Phoenix, he is yet to prove that or show it consistently. The team certainly doesnt show it, and the team we see on the court represent his coaching a lot.

Green plays 20 mins a game and in that 20 mins, he takes contested shots within the first 10 seconds, and he's not the only one.
You'll probably mention that shots taken early in the shot clock, go in at a higher percentage crap, which has merit if its in transition or SSOL Suns type offense, but I'm talking about players trying to score on their man individually as opposed to rotating it to the open man as per Xs and Os.

Now, as I mentioned MULTIPLE times already, either Hornacek is just really calm and he does plan a lot of Xs and Os.. BUT his team simply ignores it... OR he just lets them play/improvise majority of the time. I believe its a bit of both...
And that doesnt contradict my statement and MY OPINION above. And it won't change, I don't care about what YOU think, I'm entitled to my opinion.


I didnt say Hornacek CAN'T be a good coach, I think he has the accolades and intellect to excel at it... but I'm simply not seeing it consistently applied. And again, if its a matter of players ignoring him... consistently... then that's an even worse issue.

I would say if the Suns don't have a fast break opportunity then they always run a half court set. Horny rarely calls the play ... its the PG's job. But to shoot down your claim about Horny's offense being so bad ... the Suns have the sixth best offensive rating in the league and the fifth best effective field goal percentage. Clearly something is being done right but people aren't seeing it in the games.

To me a lot of it is seeing the full play. For example, Steve Nash would run PnR with Frye/Gortat often. The big would switch onto Nash. At that point it becomes ISO basketball because the PnR created a mismatch. Nash would dribble the ball at the top of the key and either backup and shoot over the big or drive by him for a layup or assist. We all loved this play and I see this happen often with Bledsoe and IT. They wave off Plumlee or Len after the switch. Mainly because neither of our bigs are very competent with their backs to the basket and need to move their big azzes out of the way to give the PG room to operate (let's hope Len develops this part of his game). Also, we watched Kief post up just outside of the key in the Cavs game time-after-time. Is this not a set play? If the defending PF is slow footed Kief has a mismatch and should try to take advantage of the player. As Kief matures and other teams start doubling he will have to make the extra pass. Still this is part of the Suns offense. Is it ISO ball? If so people around here would have hated having Duncan or Barkley on our team playing in the low block all the time. Basketball (like football) is about creating mismatches ... height or speed. If the offense finds that mismatch it is gonna be ISO ball which looks a lot like improvisation. Sorry to tell you but basketball has always been played that way ... find and exploit the mismatch. When our guys who are in the mismatch learn to make the extra pass as defensive help comes ... you will start seeing the ball movement you desire.

The real problem is people complain too damn much around here when things aren't going perfectly. If I wanted that I'd tune into CNN and Fox news all the time.

I think it depends on the coach he is letting influence his style the most. Sloan was an X/O guy. Cotton was more of a run run run guy. One problem is we don't have anyone nearly as talented as KJ was, so it's tough to completely replicate that. And he really solely ran that offense perfectly.

Yet our offense numbers are still very good compared to 25 other teams in the league. Offense isn't the problem. We are in the bottom third defensively and turn the ball over too often (bottom half).

[NotTraxxe]

The twins, Plumlee, IT, Green, and Dragic are on the block.

The Suns are set keeping Wright/Len, Tucker, and Bledsoe.

They are not tied to Warren/Ennis/etc for the right deal.

We've put calls into Chicago, Houston, and Orlando I heard of.

Don't know anything else. And I won't know as much this year as in years' previous. The Suns are controlling what gets out at this juncture.

[Jdiddy701]

^ not what I wanted to hear. Thanks traxxe


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[letsgosuns]

The twins, Plumlee, IT, Green, and Dragic are on the block.

The Suns are set keeping Wright/Len, Tucker, and Bledsoe.

They are not tied to Warren/Ennis/etc for the right deal.

We've put calls into Chicago, Houston, and Orlando I heard of.

Don't know anything else. And I won't know as much this year as in years' previous. The Suns are controlling what gets out at this juncture.

Thanks for the info!