The Marvin Gaye Williams Thread

[HornetJail]

He's playing better because he's not being called upon to guard starting PFs. I'd keep Marvin in the role he is presently in.

Marvin should stick to corner threes.

So you're just going to ignore the fact that he's been our best, most consistent shooter? He's shooting 40% on threes from the wing. Maybe he's better at more than corner threes.

Not saying he isn't. And that's **** sad when marvin williams is your most only consistent shooter. We are 100% toast if injured Al and Marvin Williams are our starting interior defenders, and that is a proven fact. There is simply no way around the fact that Marvin is a SF, not a PF, certainly not a starting PF.

[yosemiteben]

He's playing better because he's not being called upon to guard starting PFs. I'd keep Marvin in the role he is presently in.

Marvin should stick to corner threes.

So you're just going to ignore the fact that he's been our best, most consistent shooter? He's shooting 40% on threes from the wing. Maybe he's better at more than corner threes.

Not saying he isn't. And that's **** sad when marvin williams is your most only consistent shooter. We are 100% toast if injured Al and Marvin Williams are our starting interior defenders, and that is a proven fact. There is simply no way around the fact that Marvin is a SF, not a PF, certainly not a starting PF.

Well it's reality that he's our best shooter, and there is definitely going to be an offensive void left with Al out. I think it makes a lot of sense to start Marvin alongside Biz while Al is out.

[mrknowitall215]

Anderson does not create his own shot well. He gets plays run for him. Pick and Roll or pick and pop type stuff. So yes he is a focal point of their offense when he is out there.

So...we don't do pick-and-pop with Marvin Williams to a decent degree? Because if you tell me 'no', I'm going to call you a liar

Not at near the rate they do with Anderson. Also we do not run it near as well as they do. So he would not have the same shots he now gets and therefore likely would not be much better here considering a drop in defense. If we changed and would use it more then great but if not getting him is a waste of assets.

That's only because Williams isn't near the offensive talent Anderson is. Williams get open looks every game that he don't take that Anderson wouldn't hesitate to take, and that's the difference, and the reasoning for some of our posters wanting better 3-point threats that are more confident & unconscious with attempting the feat

[mrknowitall215]

Needless to say, I'm over with bashing Marvin Williams. Do I think it was a bad signing? Yes, but it was a desperate attempt to replace McRoberts sudden emergence in ability to make 3-pointers and create spacing for Jefferson. However, it was a miscalculation. Williams will be on our books for another year after this as it is a bad contract unless another team want to send us a worst contract in exchange. Williams coming off the bench as a hybrid forward as he currently is, is fine by me

Just don't tell me that he's shooting 3-pointers better than Ryan Anderson (even in a down year)

[catch20two]

You heard it from the horse's mouth. I'm cool with Marv now. Off the bench he's a serviceable player. As a starter he is a bum.

[2Mas]

Needless to say, I'm over with bashing Marvin Williams. Do I think it was a bad signing? Yes, but it was a desperate attempt to replace McRoberts sudden emergence in ability to make 3-pointers and create spacing for Jefferson. However, it was a miscalculation. Williams will be on our books for another year after this as it is a bad contract unless another team want to send us a worst contract in exchange. Williams coming off the bench as a hybrid forward as he currently is, is fine by me

Just don't tell me that he's shooting 3-pointers better than Ryan Anderson (even in a down year)

Lance, Williams & Neal for Joe Johnson?

[yosemiteben]

35% on 3-pointers isn't even that good, especially considering the looks he get

How many PFs on active rosters hit that? Everyone is crying for Tolliver and he is hitting 37%. Kevin Love, Dirk, Ryan Anderson, Draymond Green - all below Marvin from three.

I acknowledge Marvin's flaws (which I think would be corrected if he got to play SF), but we signed him primarily to add perimeter shooting and he's done that better than anyone else on the team, other than Roberts (who is a career 40% 3PT shooter).

Patrick Patterson, Serge Ibaka, Channing Frye, Marcus Morris, etc.

Okay, Marvin Williams is 6th among the 11 power forwards that qualify as a 'stretch 4', and he's the least productive of them all, even behind Mirza Teletovic & Nikola Mirotic

You have to be kidding.

If we let Marvin shoot 9 times a game like Teletovic I bet he could put up the 39% FG% that Teletovic is. Strange that you are using that as a negative though. His last ten games, Teletovic is shooting 31%. You really want to argue that you'd prefer that production?

Mirotic is shooting 34% FG% in his last ten and only 42% on the season.

So sounds like he is a top 5 option as a stretch PF. Ibaka was never an option, and Patterson and Morris both extended with their current teams. Frye got a four year, $8M per deal, so unless you'd prefer that deal to Marvin's it looks like we got the best stretch available on the market.

[mrknowitall215]

Lance, Williams & Neal for Joe Johnson?

Yes. A declining Joe Johnson is the player that I wished Lance Stephenson could be for the Hornets, and he's expiring around the same time when we could use our team option to decline Stephenson's contract in 2016. Williams and Neal are extremely expendable in my eyes. I'd do that trade without looking back if Johnson is cool with the change of scenery. If Iso Joe isn't interested in playing for Charlotte and would be a distraction upon talking to his agent, then I lose interest

[mrknowitall215]

How many PFs on active rosters hit that? Everyone is crying for Tolliver and he is hitting 37%. Kevin Love, Dirk, Ryan Anderson, Draymond Green - all below Marvin from three.

I acknowledge Marvin's flaws (which I think would be corrected if he got to play SF), but we signed him primarily to add perimeter shooting and he's done that better than anyone else on the team, other than Roberts (who is a career 40% 3PT shooter).

Patrick Patterson, Serge Ibaka, Channing Frye, Marcus Morris, etc.

Okay, Marvin Williams is 6th among the 11 power forwards that qualify as a 'stretch 4', and he's the least productive of them all, even behind Mirza Teletovic & Nikola Mirotic

You have to be kidding.

If we let Marvin shoot 9 times a game like Teletovic I bet he could put up the 39% FG% that Teletovic is. Strange that you are using that as a negative though. His last ten games, Teletovic is shooting 31%. You really want to argue that you'd prefer that production?

Mirotic is shooting 34% FG% in his last ten and only 42% on the season.

So sounds like he is a top 5 option as a stretch PF. Ibaka was never an option, and Patterson and Morris both extended with their current teams. Frye got a four year, $8M per deal, so unless you'd prefer that deal to Marvin's it looks like we got the best stretch available on the market.

Williams is average to below average the same way Teletovic is. I'm not going to argue about spilled milk & dropped cheese. I wouldn't eat/drink either off the floor

[yosemiteben]

Tell me, what FA stretch PF that we passed on has outproduced Marvin at this point? Cho is obviously an idiot for not signing that guy.

[mrknowitall215]

Tell me, what FA stretch PF that we passed on has outproduced Marvin at this point? Cho is obviously an idiot for not signing that guy.

You're asking the wrong person such a dumb question. I wanted a PF that had some shot blocking skills to play alongside Jefferson. I didn't believe in the belief that Jefferson need spacing or playing 'Alfense' versus sticking to our strength of having a defensive identity. That's why I was happy with the Vonleh pick, and once we signed Marvin Williams I was hoping Zeller win the starting job

I wouldn't have signed a stretch 4 at all this offseason. I might've retained Tolliver to be a backup combo forward like he was if I felt a stretch 4 was necessary, but it wasn't a smart/wise decision at all to massively overpay someone as mediocre as Marvin Williams to play a position he never was actually successful at

If you go back to the 2014 Free Agent thread, I wanted Ed Davis on a cheap contract even if it meant paying up to $5 million, which wasn't necessary since he ended up signing for the veteran's minimum, and now he's continuing his above average individual career with the Lakers

[yosemiteben]

I'm well aware that you had a philosophical difference with the FO about the need for a stretch PF. You are shifting the goalposts though because you were the one that originally said that Marvin was not even good at that role.

[mrknowitall215]

I'm well aware that you had a philosophical difference with the FO about the need for a stretch PF. You are shifting the goalposts though because you were the one that originally said that Marvin was not even good at that role.

It's not shifting goalposts when I had my goalpost on the opposite end of the field the whole time. As far you putting words in my mouth, I never said that Marvin Williams "is not even good at that role". I stated that shooting 35% from 3-point land isn't even that good, and nothing to be celebrated when that's your only role and considering the easy looks he receive without having to create his own shot or shoot contested attempts. Also, my primary argument was that Williams wasn't shooting the 3-point shot better than Ryan Anderson (even in a down year). I said that I'm fine with Williams as a backup hybrid forward in his current role despite the overpay at the moment, but it still was a bad signing

[TheKingofSting]

I wish we could dump Marv in this proposed wheeling and dealing.

[catch20two]

While we're tossing numbers out there let's get to some of the nitty gritty.

Our starting lineup with Messy Marv
Offensive rating: 94.8
Defensive rating: 102.5
Net rating: -7.6

Our starting lineup with Zeller
Offensive rating: 104.8
Defensive rating: 99.9
Net rating: +4.9

We've played more minutes this season with Marv playing with the starting lineup than Zeller, 132 to 107.

HORRIBLE SIGNING! I told you fools (fools= the ones who disagreed with me) that starting Marv next to Al would be horrible but all you fools did was try to tell me that Marv was a better defender than Zeller and that he's this and this much of a better offensive player than Zeller and I told you fools that the results will tell because yall eyes don't know diddly squat.

Marv is more of a detriment than Al. Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.

I should've said Messy Marv more in this post.

[BeesWax]

While we're tossing numbers out there let's get to some of the nitty gritty.

Our starting lineup with Messy Marv
Offensive rating: 94.8
Defensive rating: 102.5
Net rating: -7.6

Our starting lineup with Zeller
Offensive rating: 104.8
Defensive rating: 99.9
Net rating: +4.9

We've played more minutes this season with Marv playing with the starting lineup than Zeller, 132 to 107.

HORRIBLE SIGNING! I told you fools (fools= the ones who disagreed with me) that starting Marv next to Al would be horrible but all you fools did was try to tell me that Marv was a better defender than Zeller and that he's this and this much of a better offensive player than Zeller and I told you fools that the results will tell because yall eyes don't know diddly squat.

Marv is more of a detriment than Al. Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.

I should've said Messy Marv more in this post.

If you understand the numbers and look at them they do not help you much. Assuming you mean the starting lineup of Al, Kemba, Henderson and MKG with the two then the numbers are:

Williams
0ffRtg - 101.6
DefRtg - 85.3

Zeller
OffRtg - 104.8
DefRtg - 99.9

Which gives Williams the advantage in NetRtg of 16.3 to 4.9.

People who don't understand numbers can easily make them lie. So when it comes to playing with the lineup we appear to be using now Williams has the advantage. The biggest issue was the time with Lance early in the year.

Edit: Don't get me wrong he is way overpaid but he and Zeller are running about on par this season and he is way ahead of where Zeller was last season which is what management had to go on when deciding what to do at PF.

[catch20two]

While we're tossing numbers out there let's get to some of the nitty gritty.

Our starting lineup with Messy Marv
Offensive rating: 94.8
Defensive rating: 102.5
Net rating: -7.6

Our starting lineup with Zeller
Offensive rating: 104.8
Defensive rating: 99.9
Net rating: +4.9

We've played more minutes this season with Marv playing with the starting lineup than Zeller, 132 to 107.

HORRIBLE SIGNING! I told you fools (fools= the ones who disagreed with me) that starting Marv next to Al would be horrible but all you fools did was try to tell me that Marv was a better defender than Zeller and that he's this and this much of a better offensive player than Zeller and I told you fools that the results will tell because yall eyes don't know diddly squat.

Marv is more of a detriment than Al. Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.

I should've said Messy Marv more in this post.

If you understand the numbers and look at them they do not help you much. Assuming you mean the starting lineup of Al, Kemba, Henderson and MKG with the two then the numbers are:

Williams
0ffRtg - 101.6
DefRtg - 85.3

Zeller
OffRtg - 104.8
DefRtg - 99.9

Which gives Williams the advantage in NetRtg of 16.3 to 4.9.

People who don't understand numbers can easily make them lie. So when it comes to playing with the lineup we appear to be using now Williams has the advantage. The biggest issue was the time with Lance early in the year.

Edit: Don't get me wrong he is way overpaid but he and Zeller are running about on par this season and he is way ahead of where Zeller was last season which is what management had to go on when deciding what to do at PF.

Good find. That just mean that Hendo has been that much better than Lance that it's understandable why Cho wanna rid us of him while he still got value.

As long as you admitted that Marv is severely overrated. Took long enough.

I know you're not big on Zeller. How do it feel to know that Zeller is outplaying your boy?

[BeesWax]

While we're tossing numbers out there let's get to some of the nitty gritty.

Our starting lineup with Messy Marv
Offensive rating: 94.8
Defensive rating: 102.5
Net rating: -7.6

Our starting lineup with Zeller
Offensive rating: 104.8
Defensive rating: 99.9
Net rating: +4.9

We've played more minutes this season with Marv playing with the starting lineup than Zeller, 132 to 107.

HORRIBLE SIGNING! I told you fools (fools= the ones who disagreed with me) that starting Marv next to Al would be horrible but all you fools did was try to tell me that Marv was a better defender than Zeller and that he's this and this much of a better offensive player than Zeller and I told you fools that the results will tell because yall eyes don't know diddly squat.

Marv is more of a detriment than Al. Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.

I should've said Messy Marv more in this post.

If you understand the numbers and look at them they do not help you much. Assuming you mean the starting lineup of Al, Kemba, Henderson and MKG with the two then the numbers are:

Williams
0ffRtg - 101.6
DefRtg - 85.3

Zeller
OffRtg - 104.8
DefRtg - 99.9

Which gives Williams the advantage in NetRtg of 16.3 to 4.9.

People who don't understand numbers can easily make them lie. So when it comes to playing with the lineup we appear to be using now Williams has the advantage. The biggest issue was the time with Lance early in the year.

Edit: Don't get me wrong he is way overpaid but he and Zeller are running about on par this season and he is way ahead of where Zeller was last season which is what management had to go on when deciding what to do at PF.

Good find. That just mean that Hendo has been that much better than Lance that it's understandable why Cho wanna rid us of him while he still got value.

As long as you admitted that Marv is severely overrated. Took long enough.

I know you're not big on Zeller. How do it feel to know that Zeller is outplaying your boy?

He is not my boy. Just because I don't have irrational hate for him does not make him my boy. I look at it purely from a numbers stand point and from that level he is on par for what we were looking for. He is not overrated just overpaid. I never expected him to do more than what he has been doing. You are the one that still has not come to realization that he is performing as he has been asked to do.

I doubt you could ever acknowledge how he has done fine since you refuse to be impartial but if you look at the numbers without your hate you can see my point. This is what we had to pay to get what we are getting. He is doing just what he was supposed to do for us this season. Clifford wanted spacing at the PF spot and he is shooting 35% from three. Shoot our top three NetRtg lineups have Marvin in them right now.

We have played better with Henderson but I think some of it was the fact that Kemba, Al and Lance can't all fit. I think Kemba could play with either well enough but both need to play differently so Lance and Al don't mesh.

[catch20two]

If you understand the numbers and look at them they do not help you much. Assuming you mean the starting lineup of Al, Kemba, Henderson and MKG with the two then the numbers are:

Williams
0ffRtg - 101.6
DefRtg - 85.3

Zeller
OffRtg - 104.8
DefRtg - 99.9

Which gives Williams the advantage in NetRtg of 16.3 to 4.9.

People who don't understand numbers can easily make them lie. So when it comes to playing with the lineup we appear to be using now Williams has the advantage. The biggest issue was the time with Lance early in the year.

Edit: Don't get me wrong he is way overpaid but he and Zeller are running about on par this season and he is way ahead of where Zeller was last season which is what management had to go on when deciding what to do at PF.

Good find. That just mean that Hendo has been that much better than Lance that it's understandable why Cho wanna rid us of him while he still got value.

As long as you admitted that Marv is severely overrated. Took long enough.

I know you're not big on Zeller. How do it feel to know that Zeller is outplaying your boy?

He is not my boy. Just because I don't have irrational hate for him does not make him my boy. I look at it purely from a numbers stand point and from that level he is on par for what we were looking for. He is not overrated just overpaid. I never expected him to do more than what he has been doing. You are the one that still has not come to realization that he is performing as he has been asked to do.

I doubt you could ever acknowledge how he has done fine since you refuse to be impartial but if you look at the numbers without your hate you can see my point. This is what we had to pay to get what we are getting. He is doing just what he was supposed to do for us this season. Clifford wanted spacing at the PF spot and he is shooting 35% from three. Shoot our top three NetRtg lineups have Marvin in them right now.

We have played better with Henderson but I think some of it was the fact that Kemba, Al and Lance can't all fit. I think Kemba could play with either well enough but both need to play differently so Lance and Al don't mesh.

Irrational hate? Lol. If it ain't the kettle calling the pot hot on a flaming stove.

[catch20two]

Marv is overpaid by double what he's worth. I said it from the beginning that he'd be a okay backup but damn sure not a starter a damn sure not worth that dumb ass contract. Don't try to misconstrue my sh*t because you like him.