Game 42: Minnesota T-Wolves (6-31) @ Phoenix Suns (23-18)

[Revived]

Bledsoe hasn't been that great defensively. He did good against Kyrie but Mo Williams, Brandon Knight, Russel Westbrook (both times), Walker, Collison, Evans, Mills among others who im probably not remembering right now all did very good when they were guarded by Bledsoe.

Don't get me wrong, EB is probably still our best or 2nd best defender but he's not much better than Goran's been on that end this season.

I think Goran's offense makes a bigger difference than EB's defense. Especially considering Dragic isn't close to being a liability defensively while Bledsoe is almost a sure fire liability offensively (averaging 3 turnovers a game and 31% 3pt shooter).

Offensive liability? Bledsoe?

Look, Bledsoes defense is better than Dragic's. Right now it might not be by much, but it still is. Offensively? You want to throw Bledsoe stats out there to make it seem like he is a liability, but yet his numbers arnt that far off from Dragic's.

Bledsoe- 3 turnovers a game.
Dragic- 2 turnovers a game.

Both not bad for being starting PG's.

Bledsoe- 31% 3PT
Dragic- 35% 3PT

4% difference isnt THAT much.

Bledsoe- 16.4 Points per game in 33 minutes
Dragic- 16.7 Points per game in 33 minutes

Hmmmm....... seems pretty close offensively if you ask me. Dragic does have the better FG%, but Bledsoe has the better FT%.

Bledsoe- 44% FG / 83% FT
Dragic- 50% FG / 78% FT

Bledose also draws more fouls than Dragic, resulting in FT's and foul issues for the other team.

Bledsoe- 5.1 FTA
Dragic- 2.7 FTA

And then you have the Meat & Potato stats (Assists/Rebounds/Steals/Blocks)

Bledsoe- 6 Assists / 5.2 Rebounds / 1.6 Steals / .7 Blocks
Dragic- 3.9 Assists / 3.6 Rebounds / 1 Steal / .2 Blocks

Add in being 3 years younger, I take Bledsoe over Dragic.

I probably shouldn't have said offensive liablity, its extreme stretch.

As for FTAs, a lot of that has to do with Bledsoe being the one with the ball in his hands at the end of games when teams intentionally foul.

Obviously EB will have more assists since Goran has been turned into an off ball guard. Rebounding, steals and blocks agreed on all 3 accounts that Bledsoe is way better than Goran at those things.

The biggest difference among all those things you listed is FG %. Goran is 50% which is good a starting guard. Bledsoe is at 43.9%....that's atrocious for a guard. That means he is not efficient at all when he shoots the ball in situations other than FTs.

I think when watchin the game, its clear (for me at least) to see that the the difference between Goran and Eric's offense (with Goran being better) is bigger than the difference between Eric and Goran's defense (with Eric being better).

In Bledsoe's defense, his turnover problem has been much better since the Spurs game (when Pop exposed him). Hopefully it can continue with the brutal schedule we have coming up.

[Sunsdeuce]

Bledsoe hasn't been that great defensively. He did good against Kyrie but Mo Williams, Brandon Knight, Russel Westbrook (both times), Walker, Collison, Evans, Mills among others who im probably not remembering right now all did very good when they were guarded by Bledsoe.

Don't get me wrong, EB is probably still our best or 2nd best defender but he's not much better than Goran's been on that end this season.

I think Goran's offense makes a bigger difference than EB's defense. Especially considering Dragic isn't close to being a liability defensively while Bledsoe is almost a sure fire liability offensively (averaging 3 turnovers a game and 31% 3pt shooter).

Offensive liability? Bledsoe?

Look, Bledsoes defense is better than Dragic's. Right now it might not be by much, but it still is. Offensively? You want to throw Bledsoe stats out there to make it seem like he is a liability, but yet his numbers arnt that far off from Dragic's.

Bledsoe- 3 turnovers a game.
Dragic- 2 turnovers a game.

Both not bad for being starting PG's.

Bledsoe- 31% 3PT
Dragic- 35% 3PT

4% difference isnt THAT much.

Bledsoe- 16.4 Points per game in 33 minutes
Dragic- 16.7 Points per game in 33 minutes

Hmmmm....... seems pretty close offensively if you ask me. Dragic does have the better FG%, but Bledsoe has the better FT%.

Bledsoe- 44% FG / 83% FT
Dragic- 50% FG / 78% FT

Bledose also draws more fouls than Dragic, resulting in FT's and foul issues for the other team.

Bledsoe- 5.1 FTA
Dragic- 2.7 FTA

And then you have the Meat & Potato stats (Assists/Rebounds/Steals/Blocks)

Bledsoe- 6 Assists / 5.2 Rebounds / 1.6 Steals / .7 Blocks
Dragic- 3.9 Assists / 3.6 Rebounds / 1 Steal / .2 Blocks

Add in being 3 years younger, I take Bledsoe over Dragic.

I have to disagree with the argument you are making here. Bledsoe is bad a several things that dragic is good at.

Bledsoe is a horrible shooter. Like almost rondo bad. 44% from a PG is horrible. Bledsoe's jump shoot rarely goes it. i get surprised when he does hit a jumper.

Three point shooting dragic is 5% better. That percentage is a huge difference. Yeah it looks small but from three point range it's a big difference. Also dragic has the ability to increase that percentage. Bledsoe will NEVER be a good three point shooter. The best he can hope for is to be about as good as tony parker.

This part now is just my opinion but Bledsoe does not give 100% effort for the whole game. There is many times he is disinterested. Granted many players go through this but bledsoe does it nearly every game. It's so obvious.

And here is the most important and key difference with bledsoe and dragic. This is the most important part of being a PG. The ability to run an offense. Bledsoe CANNOT Run an offense. He does not have PG instincts. He always looks for layups before a pass. The offense does not flow well at all. None of the players move when he has the ball because bledsoe is the DRIBBLE King. He does not make sound decisions at key moments. The Bottomline is he is NOT the quarter back of this team nor does he have the skill set.
Dragic proved last year when bledsoe was out that dragic is the superior PG. The key word you look for when your looking for PGs is VISION and bledsoe does not have good vision at all.

Also I could care less about age. If dragic was 36 and bledsoe was 29 than yes probably should keep bledsoe. But that's not there case.

Oh yeah I hear a lot of talk from people that say bledsoe is this "great defensive" player. When do I get to see it. I haven't seen this so called great defense. How many times did he get worked by Mo last night! I lost count. I think the better way to describe bledsoe's defense is "he has great defensive potential." To be fair to bledsoe, no NBA player is a great defender anymore. The NBA went away from defense after the 90s because stern wanted more offense.

[carey]

I have really yet to see this great defender everyone keeps saying Bledssoe is. Zach Lowe calls him one of his "mirror guys" and I wonder what film he's watching. He gets randomly torched by old guys, bench guys, stars, you name it. Lately Len has been back there to erase a lot of his mistakes but he's by no means a Gary Payton. That said, Dragic is even worse defensively. At least he looks like he's busting his butt out there. Eric not so much. (What I hate most is that Bledsoe falls down to the floor on almost every lay up attempt & when he misses his man almost always has a free pass on the other side of the floor. Needs to fix this soon.)

[Sunsdeuce]

I have really yet to see this great defender everyone keeps saying Bledssoe is. Zach Lowe calls him one of his "mirror guys" and I wonder what film he's watching. He gets randomly torched by old guys, bench guys, stars, you name it. Lately Len has been back there to erase a lot of his mistakes but he's by no means a Gary Payton. That said, Dragic is even worse defensively. At least he looks like he's busting his butt out there. Eric not so much. (What I hate most is that Bledsoe falls down to the floor on almost every lay up attempt & when he misses his man almost always has a free pass on the other side of the floor. Needs to fix this soon.)

Bingo

[NavLDO]

Still don't know if this 3 PG thing will work.

We'll know soon enough, this upcoming schedule after the Laker game will tell us all that we need to know.

Yep. We have 8 straight games against Playoff teams, with a B2B in there (Bulls @ home, then @ GS--yeah, that's a loss), and only two of the games are against Eastern Conf Opponents (Chi, Wash). The only good thing about that stretch is that 6 of the 8 games are at home.

My guess, assuming a win over LAL, is after that, we go 2-6 on that 8 game stretch, leaving us at 27-24, and likely behind OKC/Spurs for the 9 seed. If we can manage 4-4, then we'll be 29-22, and likely still in the 8 seed.

And I just calculated it out, and if we lose against every team currently with a winning record, and vice versa, we'll end up with a 41 and 41 record, so basically, we play 6 more teams with winning records than losing records (including OKC twice), which obviously, does not bode well for us, because I'm guessing we'll need at least a 49-33 record to make the playoffs, considering how competitive the West is, yet again, this year.

So, this forum is likely to be a wreck after that 8 game stretch. Trade Len; Wright was a waste of a pick up; should have kept Randolph; we need to trade for Frye; we should let Goran walk or trade him before the deadline; Bledsoe was drastically overpaid; we are doomed to 5 years straight of the 14th overall pick; McD is the worst GM in the league; Hornacek needs to be fired; and last but not least, and one of my all-time favorites, we need to sit all our starters and play a line-up of Ennis, Goodwin, Bullock, Wright, and Plumlee so we can tank. Ah yes, this should be fun!

[Christine-In-AZ]

LIke both Bledsoe & Dragic's game ...Dragic moreso.

They make a good duo.

I will pick Dragic if forced to pick just one. In part that choice is because Bledsoe will likely have a major knee injury well before he hits 30 years old...his style of attack on both sides of the court has "major injury" written all over it.

In 2021-'22 Goran will still be playing in the NBA and Eric will not.

...and yes, I am Nostradamus

[JMac1]

Bledsoe looked good last night. He played under control. Needs to work on his shot.

[Wannabe MEP]

I have really yet to see this great defender everyone keeps saying Bledssoe is.

Advanced stats like RPM/RAPM say he's elite:

• #1 defensive PG last year (of 71)
• #4 defensive PG this year (of 80)

He's got the quickness of a PG, the wingspan of a SG, and the strength of a SF, and he uses all of them well on-ball. Off-ball he wreaks a lot of havoc by jumping passing lanes...stripping lazy ball-handlers...blocking layups from behind, etc. In the process, he does lose his man at times (he doesn't have the hyper-vigilance of a PJ Tucker-type), but he doesn't always get burned when that happens because he recovers with an athletic play.

[kennydorglas]

I have really yet to see this great defender everyone keeps saying Bledssoe is.

Advanced stats like RPM/RAPM say he's elite:

• #1 defensive PG last year (of 71)
• #4 defensive PG this year (of 80)

He's got the quickness of a PG, the wingspan of a SG, and the strength of a SF, and he uses all of them well on-ball. Off-ball he wreaks a lot of havoc by jumping passing lanes...stripping lazy ball-handlers...blocking layups from behind, etc. In the process, he does lose his man at times (he doesn't have the hyper-vigilance of a PJ Tucker-type), but he doesn't always get burned when that happens because he recovers with an athletic play.

Well put.
People just refuse to see the obvious.

[NaturalBuns]

Still don't know if this 3 PG thing will work.

We'll know soon enough, this upcoming schedule after the Laker game will tell us all that we need to know.

Yep. We have 8 straight games against Playoff teams, with a B2B in there (Bulls @ home, then @ GS--yeah, that's a loss), and only two of the games are against Eastern Conf Opponents (Chi, Wash). The only good thing about that stretch is that 6 of the 8 games are at home.

My guess, assuming a win over LAL, is after that, we go 2-6 on that 8 game stretch, leaving us at 27-24, and likely behind OKC/Spurs for the 9 seed. If we can manage 4-4, then we'll be 29-22, and likely still in the 8 seed.

And I just calculated it out, and if we lose against every team currently with a winning record, and vice versa, we'll end up with a 41 and 41 record, so basically, we play 6 more teams with winning records than losing records (including OKC twice), which obviously, does not bode well for us, because I'm guessing we'll need at least a 49-33 record to make the playoffs, considering how competitive the West is, yet again, this year.

So, this forum is likely to be a wreck after that 8 game stretch. Trade Len; Wright was a waste of a pick up; should have kept Randolph; we need to trade for Frye; we should let Goran walk or trade him before the deadline; Bledsoe was drastically overpaid; we are doomed to 5 years straight of the 14th overall pick; McD is the worst GM in the league; Hornacek needs to be fired; and last but not least, and one of my all-time favorites, we need to sit all our starters and play a line-up of Ennis, Goodwin, Bullock, Wright, and Plumlee so we can tank. Ah yes, this should be fun!

Have some faith this is a suns team that lost to a buzzer vs clippers. Double OT with OKC and Memphis. Had the game almost won in SA.

Suns can ball... Nothing is a chalked up L for this team but nothing is a foreseen W either

[NTB]

We are 2-7 in close games (3pt difference)

Imagine if we could be 5-4 and we could be like 27-15 instead of 24-18.

[Revived]

We'll know soon enough, this upcoming schedule after the Laker game will tell us all that we need to know.

Yep. We have 8 straight games against Playoff teams, with a B2B in there (Bulls @ home, then @ GS--yeah, that's a loss), and only two of the games are against Eastern Conf Opponents (Chi, Wash). The only good thing about that stretch is that 6 of the 8 games are at home.

My guess, assuming a win over LAL, is after that, we go 2-6 on that 8 game stretch, leaving us at 27-24, and likely behind OKC/Spurs for the 9 seed. If we can manage 4-4, then we'll be 29-22, and likely still in the 8 seed.

And I just calculated it out, and if we lose against every team currently with a winning record, and vice versa, we'll end up with a 41 and 41 record, so basically, we play 6 more teams with winning records than losing records (including OKC twice), which obviously, does not bode well for us, because I'm guessing we'll need at least a 49-33 record to make the playoffs, considering how competitive the West is, yet again, this year.

So, this forum is likely to be a wreck after that 8 game stretch. Trade Len; Wright was a waste of a pick up; should have kept Randolph; we need to trade for Frye; we should let Goran walk or trade him before the deadline; Bledsoe was drastically overpaid; we are doomed to 5 years straight of the 14th overall pick; McD is the worst GM in the league; Hornacek needs to be fired; and last but not least, and one of my all-time favorites, we need to sit all our starters and play a line-up of Ennis, Goodwin, Bullock, Wright, and Plumlee so we can tank. Ah yes, this should be fun!

Have some faith this is a suns team that last to a buzzer vs clippers. Double OT with OKC and Memphis. Had the game almost won in SA.

Suns can ball... Nothing is a chalked up L for this team but nothing is a foreseen W either

There is no award given for close games. 2-7 in close games.

And that double OT game probably wouldn't even have happened if Westbrook didn't get ejected. The time before that when we played OKC without Westbrook getting ejected, we lost by 20. SAS is also a whole another animal when their Finals MVP Kawhi Leonard isn't playing.

But again, being close doesn't give us awards.

[carey]

[*]#1 defensive PG last year (of 71)
[*]#4 defensive PG this year (of 80)[/list]

Well put.
People just refuse to see the obvious.

Welp, if advanced stats says it's true it must be. I'll just ignore all the times I've seen him get torched or take plays off or bark at the refs while his man goes in for an uncontested layup on the other side. You're right, people DO refuse to see the obvious.

[kennydorglas]

[*]#1 defensive PG last year (of 71)
[*]#4 defensive PG this year (of 80)[/list]

Well put.
People just refuse to see the obvious.

Welp, if advanced stats says it's true it must be. I'll just ignore all the times I've seen him get torched or take plays off or bark at the refs while his man goes in for an uncontested layup on the other side. You're right, people DO refuse to see the obvious.

Whatever, man. Keep bitching about him and be happy.

[Wannabe MEP]

Welp, if advanced stats says it's true it must be. I'll just ignore all the times I've seen him get torched or take plays off or bark at the refs while his man goes in for an uncontested layup on the other side. You're right, people DO refuse to see the obvious.

So we're not buying the "advanced stats." (You conveniently ignored the written argument portion from my original post -- convenient ignorance seems to be your specialty.) Well, how about raw stats?

2013-14 DefRtg
w/ Bledsoe: 100.5
no Bledsoe: 105.7
Difference: 5.2

2014-15 DefRtg
w/ Bledsoe: 102.3
no Bledsoe: 107.1
Difference: 4.8

So let's see...here are the cases for the two sides of this one:

Bledsoe is a good defender

1. Raw stats (see above)
2. Advanced stats (RPM)
3. Opinion of lots of NBA professionals: writers (e.g., Zach Lowe), scouts, etc.
4. Opinion of several on this board (e.g., kennydorglas, me, etc.)

Bledsoe is not a good defender

1. Your opinion (apparently you got Sunsdeuce on your side too -- congrats)

[Moochthemonkey]

Bledsoe is a horrible shooter. Like almost rondo bad. 44% from a PG is horrible. Bledsoe's jump shoot rarely goes it. i get surprised when he does hit a jumper.

He was decent last season, not sure what happened to his jumper this year (down from 46 to 40 eFG %)

Also dragic has the ability to increase that percentage. Bledsoe will NEVER be a good three point shooter.

Why does Dragic have the ability to increase the percentage, but Bledsoe does not? Dragic was shooting 32% from the arc in his fifth season, a point better than Bledsoe is now

he best he can hope for is to be about as good as tony parker.

Was that comparison intentional, because they have the exact same career 3pt average at .322% O_O

[nevetsov]

In my humble opinion you're both correct - Bledsoe is a good defender in his own right, but to me being a great defender at the PG spot doesn't hold as much value as it used to. This is predominantly based on:

1) The depth of quality starting PGs in the league right now.

You could be one of the top defensive PGs in the league and I would estimate that on any given night, around 75% of starting PGs in the league could still go for 20+, because most of them are just really good. Off the top of my head, guys that could go for 20+ against Bled or any other great defensive PG (Rondo, Westbrook etc.):

Teague, D.Williams, Kemba, Rose, Irving, Rondo, Lawson, Jennings, Curry, Beverley, Paul, Lin, Conley, Knight, Rubio/ M.Williams, Holiday, Westbrook, MCW, Lillard, Collison, Parker, Lowry, Wall.

Just because you're a great defender at the PG spot does not guarantee that the opposing PG will be limited to single digits every game. Not in this league.

2) Teams recognize their PG quality and design systems to enable/ enhance PG production.

If you look at the good teams, they are screen heavy, pick and roll oriented teams that try to generate mismatches to get their PG in a matchup which they can exploit. Spurs (boo) are a great example. Parker generally gets his points and rarely seems gassed doing it. It's because the good teams know how to free their PG up from their defender and make someone else have to step up and defend them (like a big man help defender).

Unless you have a smart team loaded with versatile defenders at all positions, good teams will always find a way to exploit the weakest link. It has little to do with how favourable the head to head matchups are - you could be the best PG defender in the NBA but if you're playing against a smart team and your big man sucks at defending the pick and roll (*cough Plumlee*) because he is slow and/or soft, your guy is going to go for 30.

These stats IMO need to incorporate the effect of defensive tandems/pairings (eg pick and roll defense).