Noah to Suns

[Revived]

For those of you who aren't familiar with Alex Len, please check here for reference

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1365455

Top 3 in blocks, #1 and #5 in key defensive stats and has an improving offensive game. Only 21 years old, barely 2nd year in the NBA.

[DanishLakerFan]

Because I said he should be MVP? No... you said "If he's a 10reb, 3blk type center he needs to show it, which he hasn't." I countered with... he has and gave stats. No where did I say he should be crowned MVP.

Well, i you nitpick and give me his average over just 8 games, so shall i: 9 and 2.9 is not 10 and 3.

[DanishLakerFan]

Because I said he should be MVP? No... you said "If he's a 10reb, 3blk type center he needs to show it, which he hasn't." I countered with... he has and gave stats. No where did I say he should be crowned MVP.

Well, i you nitpick and give me his average over just 8 games, so shall i: 9 and 2.9 is not 10 and 3.

[Qwigglez]

Because I said he should be MVP? No... you said "If he's a 10reb, 3blk type center he needs to show it, which he hasn't." I countered with... he has and gave stats. No where did I say he should be crowned MVP.

Well, i you nitpick and give me his average over just 8 games, so shall i: 9 and 2.9 is not 10 and 3.

4 game span.
January 6th thru the 11th. 10.25 boards and 3.5 blocks. BOOM.

[bigfoot]

For those of you who have not seen Len play ... some of the reasons we are high on him.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5im8_An4GA[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5Dn3HvoKxc[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS-QHqDA14w[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTdptkoM83g[/youtube]

[Leto]

This is all a moot issue. The Bulls are not going to trade Noah for a prospect/project guy who, while he has tremendous upside, is not going to be as good as Noah any time soon--if ever.

[Mr Swagtastic]

How about we change it to Plumlee + Tucker for Noah and McD. Now that's something PHX would strongly consider even though Chicago may not.

That is really, really bad for The Bulls they are trying to win a ring this year and have a very good shot at making the Eastern Conference final. Noah provides them one of the best defenders in the paint and a very good passer in the post. Plumlee is just a prospect who does the opposite of what they are trying to do.

So being a Lakers fan, would you trade Julius Randle, Nick Young for Joakim Noah? I'm not sure if you guys value Nick Young at all, but I'm hoping you do, lol.

Another bad deal. Randle isn't better then Gibson, Gasol or Mirotic now. He is another power forward who The Bulls don't need.

I feel that Noah is being grossly underrated here and Len is overrated. People are making him out to be the best big man of all time. Better then Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem, Shaq, Mourning, Garnett and Bill Russell all rolled into one.

Len is a very fid prospect but he isn't untouchable. I bet if Toronto offered you Lowry and Jonas Valanciunas for him and Dragic you would have a hard time saying no to that.

[Knosh]

I compare Noah 2nd year to Len now and Len is the similar trajectory except he has offensive potential.

Noah is 30 years old and has some durability concerns. If he was 26-27 years old with lower mileage... I'd do it.

Len since starting has been a 10 rebound 3 block type of center... For a 21 year old that's amazing, you keep him and hope he develops offensive moves and he will be a two way center.

This is ridiculous. Noah is 29 with durability concerns. Len is 21 with durability concerns and only 5 double-doubles in his career. If he's a 10reb, 3blk type center he needs to show it, which he hasn't.

Wait what? LMAO.
The last 4 games he's gotten over at least 10 boards. For the month of January he's averaging 9 boards a game in ONLY 25 minutes AND he's averaging 2.9 blocks per game. So yeah... he has shown it.
Also, if you take out his first two games of this month where he only got 15 and 16 minutes those games, then he would be averaging more than 10 boards a game for the month of January.

Len leads the league in fouls/36 among players with 800+ minutes: http://bkref.com/tiny/EePnX
He has been starting the last 17 games. In those games he fouled out three times and got to 5 fouls twice in 22 and 24 minutes respectively.

So him only getting relavtively few minutes has a lot to do with him and I wouldn't use that to hype up the stats he puts up.

[MoneyTalks41890]

No reason for Chicago to do this. Noah has put up great numbers and played great D for years. Len has had, what, maybe 10 good games?

[BR0D1E86]

How about we change it to Plumlee + Tucker for Noah and McD. Now that's something PHX would strongly consider even though Chicago may not.

Chicago may not consider? Seriously?

[NotTraxxe]

Noah has the better body of work x100.

The reason the Suns say 'no' is for a number of reasons. None of which are that Len //IS// a better player than Noah.

Here are my reasons:

1) The Suns with Noah in an ultra competitive West are not going to contend. There is no guarantee they make the playoffs at this juncture either even with Noah. We would have to make other moves with this and if those are not out there then there is no reason to move forward.

2) Noah's salary. The Suns have Goran Dragic to resign or trade. Taking Noah would hamper our ability to do that. If we don't find a trade partner for Dragic where we get value back we will want to retain him.

3) McDonough valued Len as a top two pick in the draft. We attempted to get an earlier pick to acquire him or Oladipo. Len is in the eyes of management a statement of franchise direction and opportunity. This was our lowest pick in a draft (even if a poor one) and the Suns have taken tremendous heat for our sending off of our picks. (Nash/Rondo/etc.)

4) Noah's inevitable decline is upon us:

Percent decline of NBA player's by Age: (Keep in mind for a Center this is likely far more dramatic)
29 to 30 -11%
30 to 31 -17%
31 to 32 -22%
32 to 33 -35%
33 to 34 -57%
34 to 35 -146%

Source: http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

5) Len's contract. He is still on his rookie deal for two more years. If Noah declines as expected Len will be producing where he is at a fraction of the cost. Further the Suns can resign Len when his rookie deal is up. Look at the statistics of where a team that can offer longer contracts loses a player they want to keep and resign.

6 Noah's contract. Noah will have the ability to go to a contending team or a large market team when his contract expires. See the percentage of players that remain on non-contending teams in this scenario with the draw Noah has. Likely the Suns get Noah for two years and then would have to overpay a rapidly declining player to retain him.


It isn't because Len's last run of games that makes him equal to Noah why the suns say no. It is all the reasons mentioned above. Len is not equal to Noah right now. But in two years his production will be better than Noah and that's when the Suns with their young players will be reaching many of their 'peak' years. The Suns will be in their prime in about two years if they don't shake up the roster. Getting Noah now hinders that progress. Len will be in his third year (missing the first) when statistically big men show a leap forward in production.

[old rem]

Huge Noah fan here, but him and Gasol does not work. Noah needs to play center and Taj needs to start with Gasol.

Len and Tucker to Chic
Noah and McDougie to Suns

Doug McD would have to go in a separate deal, not sure if Suns have an exemption

Noah would be awesome in Phoenix, and their staff could help him. They would have Plumlee and Wright behind him, so he wouldn't wear down. Losing Tucker hurts, as does Losing Len's potential, but addition of McD helps them-his shooting would be great long term. Helps the Suns make the playoffs-Noah's leadership would be welcome.

Bulls hate to give up Noah, but he does not work at the 4, and Gasol is set for a few years. They can bring Len along slowly-long term he and Mirotic work well. Bulls love McD, but Tucker adds the corner 3 and D they need. Imagine Tucker and Butler on the wings-Dunleavy is better off the bench, and they still have Kirk and Snell, plus Moore looks ok. They keep trying to win now, but are even more set for the future and don't have to extend Noah.

Rose/Brooks/Kirk/Moore
JB/Dunleavy/Kirk/Snell/Moore
Tucker/Dunleavy/Snell/Mirotic
Taj/Mirotic
Gasol/Len

That team wins the East, and looks better for the future

SERIOUSLY? It will take some MAJOR shyt to pry Noah from the Bulls.. yet they at McD...who I think will become a big plus. They get 2 guy's I'd view as backups on a good team? WTF? If the Suns added Thomas, Unprotected #1... I still don't see it as a yes for the Bulls.

[Revived]

How about we change it to Plumlee + Tucker for Noah and McD. Now that's something PHX would strongly consider even though Chicago may not.

That is really, really bad for The Bulls they are trying to win a ring this year and have a very good shot at making the Eastern Conference final. Noah provides them one of the best defenders in the paint and a very good passer in the post. Plumlee is just a prospect who does the opposite of what they are trying to do.

So being a Lakers fan, would you trade Julius Randle, Nick Young for Joakim Noah? I'm not sure if you guys value Nick Young at all, but I'm hoping you do, lol.

Another bad deal. Randle isn't better then Gibson, Gasol or Mirotic now. He is another power forward who The Bulls don't need.

I feel that Noah is being grossly underrated here and Len is overrated. People are making him out to be the best big man of all time. Better then Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem, Shaq, Mourning, Garnett and Bill Russell all rolled into one.

Len is a very fid prospect but he isn't untouchable. I bet if Toronto offered you Lowry and Jonas Valanciunas for him and Dragic you would have a hard time saying no to that.

Len isn't a superstar or even an All Star caliber big man right now. You won't find any Suns fans who disagree with you there.

However think to yourself, who makes more sense to a rebuilding team like PHX, 30 year old C who hasn't looked like himself since returning from injury and is on a big $$ contract or 21 year old C 5th overall pick who has showed good promise since being inserted into starting lineup?

Even for Chicago, this trade makes no sense. Their better off with Noah since their in win now mode.

We have Dragic to pay and that's not happening if Noah's contract is on our books.

There's a million reasons why the Suns don't do this (million reasons why Chicago doesn't do it as well) and not a single one of them is because Len is better than Noah right now or because Lwn is a star big man right now.

[pipfan]

How about Noah and something for Dragic and Plumlee?

[Devilzsidewalk]

I haven't seen much Alex Len this year, but his #s this month are pretty impressive - 8 pts, 9 boards, 3 blocks, 81% from the line 58% from the field in only 25 minutes a game. I could see being absolutely uninterested in trading him for Noah if I was a Suns fan watching that kind of production.

[Fo-Real]

Yeah.... silly to argue and continue this thread, should be closed to keep the two fan bases from the silly flaming war. Agree in any other situation or team that Noah is worth more asset wise and to his team than Len..... and to Phx, Len and his youth, potential on BOTH sides of the ball on a ROOKIE CONTRACT, is worth more than Noah with his contract, injury problems and just defensive and rebounding prowess... Even a healthy Noah would not give Phx a better chance than Len RIGHT NOW.... we drafted him as a Lon term asset. No need to argue between the two sides.

[NavLDO]

NotTraxxe above pretty much nailed it. But simply, this is a bad deal for both sides. And yes, of course Noah/McBuckets is a much higher value than Len/Tucker. That's not even debatable, really. But the Suns will still say "no, thank you." Noah would leave right about the time when the Suns would actually need him to compete; plus he'd be 31 by then. Len, on the other hand, will be just 23, with 5 or so years left on the Suns--they will not let him go in RFA.

So all of us Suns' fans aren't "overrating" our players; it's about timing and cost, which NotTraxxe laid out beautifully. So all the non-Suns' fan need to get that notion out of your minds. Only ONE poster in this thread, that I recall, thinks Len will be better than Noah. Truth is, no one knows, or will know for at least a few more years.

But to the OP, if this is about getting Tucker, and not Len, then make a separate trade for Tucker where the Bulls keep Noah, the Suns keep Len, and offer up a prospect or two, like McBuckets and Snell--that trade would work. If the goal is to get Tucker, but trade Noah as well, then trade Noah and Snell (assuming Snell is almost a negative value at this point) for Tucker, Green, and Plumlee. Plumlee solves the issue with losing Noah, and Tucker and Green gives the Bulls two productive Wing assets, and frees up a bit of Cap space. The Suns lose cap flexibility, but obviously nets them a premier player.

But I really don't see a scenario where McDonough trades Len for a 9-year-older replacement. Len truly is potentially the Suns' future cornerstone player that they build around. On paper, sure, the Bulls lose big time in value on the initial trade. I don't think any Suns' fan denies that fact, but it's all the "behind the scenes" stuff that is not readily apparent that keeps the Suns from saying 'yes' to that deal. That doesn't make us Suns' fans "delusional" or "overvaluing our players"; it just means that the Suns are not ready, basically, not developed enough, for that All-Star player to eat up all of our cap, especially when it involves the one player we hope to build around. And I find it hard to believe that all the non-Suns' fans can't see that fact.

Additionally, this is a terrible trade for the Bulls as well. Why would they trade, arguably, their 2nd best player for a guy that is still developing, when they are in the midst of fighting for the number 1 seed in the Eastern Conference. So, like has been stated a few times on this thread, this trade is bad for both sides.

[pipfan]

Great points in the last 2 posts-but our problem is Noah/Gasol is not working. We can't trade Gasol, and I want Taj starting with him. Thanks for your input.

[CellarDoor]

There's a few folks on both sides of this being so obnoxious it's hard to want to agree with either fan base...jeez.

Neither team is going to trade away someone they value highly that was drafted in the last year or two years for something less than a sure thing. Obviously Len isn't a sure thing, and Noah's injuries and McDermott not showing anything yet makes them not sure things. It just won't work.

The Suns have a lot of players the Bulls could make use of (Tucker, Green, Dragic), but until/unless Phoenix gives up on this year, which they shouldn't yet, we're HORRIBLE trading partners.

[Fo-Real]

Great points in the last 2 posts-but our problem is Noah/Gasol is not working. We can't trade Gasol, and I want Taj starting with him. Thanks for your input.

Well.... Len is not for sale on that one...... can I interest you in.... say a 5"9 pg... plucky little guy.... how bout a 6"7 shooting guard slash sf... 9 and a half fingers... rare...exotic....either can shoot you into a game...or out LOL..... How bout a couple twins... who seem always to be close face to face talking... seemingly an inch away from kissing each time one does something right.... I think they .... never mind.... any of that for Taj?!?! Lol.