Starting Hinrich over Dunleavy in a Bogans role

[Rerisen]

Why might we consider this?

1. To help fix the defense: Put Hinrich on the better offensive player of the two guards. If its the PG, he guards the point and provides excellent PnR defense via fighting through screens his specialty. This helps protect Gasol's slow feet.

If the SG is the better player, Kirk guards him and we leave Rose on the PG.

2. To bolster the wing depth. Dunleavy now becomes your backup wing - much like Korver in 2011. Brooks is the regular backup PG. Seems to make more rotational sense than what we have now.

3. Hinrich's minutes don't have to go up. It would be more a Bogans role type deal. Just to set the tone defensively.

4. Kirk would have to hit the open three reliably. Hopefully with Rose, Butler and Gasol on floor, he would take a lot less stupid 2s, and his TS% would go up.

5. Hinrich has the 2nd best +/- on the team, put it to the test.

Sort of a desperation idea, but this team need some kind of kick in the pants.

[League Circles]

I don't agree that it would help the defense. MDJ is arguably as good on D as Kirk, as is Rose frankly. But the real key is it allows Butler to play SG. If teams put a guard on MDJ, he'll light them up shooting over them, and Butler can speed past the SF defending him.

Basically, Jimmy should defend the best perimeter scorer. If it's a PG, Rose can guard the 2.

[Rerisen]

I don't agree that it would help the defense. MDJ is arguably as good on D as Kirk, as is Rose frankly.

I don't think MDJ is as good on D, but that's beside the point really. MDJ can't guard PGs. And we have a very particular problem in our D, we our getting carved up on the pick and roll and pick and pop.

While Derrick *when healthy* is as good (even better man to man) as Kirk at guarding elite PGs like Russ or Wall, against your average nightly PG that uses screens, Rose is nowhere close to Kirk in fighting through them.

If teams put a guard on MDJ, he'll light them up shooting over them,

This sounds like a myth to me. MDJ is not a 1v1 talent, whenever he has big games its more because the defense loses track of him off ball and he gets a bunch of open shots off screens, or in transition. I can't even remember him just pulling up in the face of some shorter defender.

I also don't really believe this narrative that Butler going back to SG is going to make him a monster again. He has admitted he has lots of things bothering him right now, and frankly he just looks tired.

Basically, Jimmy should defend the best perimeter scorer. If it's a PG, Rose can guard the 2.

Jimmy can guard a PG for 5 minutes here or there, I don't really think he can pick up a Tony Parker or Teague for 20 or 25 minutes a game without utterly running out of gas.

Moreover, if Jimmy is guarding the PG, who is guarding the better offensive wing that night. Rose or Dunleavy? Not good. The only reason people think Duns is good on defense, is he guards a cake assignment every night thanks to Butler. He's decidedly average.

[TheSuzerain]

No.

[Rerisen]

Here is where our usual staring lineup ranks vs other top teams. The one that people love so much in thinking Dunleavy is the solution to all this team's problems.

Plus/Minus Per Game

GSW: Barnes - Bogut - Curry - Green- Thompson: +7.0
LAC: Barnes - Griffin - Jordan - Paul - Redick: +6.3
POR: Aldridge - Batum - Lillard - Lopez - Matthews: +4.1
OKC: Adams - Durant - Ibaka - Roberson - Westbrook: +3.3
HOU:Ariza - Beverley - Harden - Howard - Motiejunas: +3.7
ATL: Carroll - Horford - Korver - Millsap - Teague: +3.2
MEM: Allen - Conley - Gasol - Lee - Randolph: +2.5
SAS: Diaw - Duncan - Green - Leonard - Parker: +2.2
CHI: Butler - Dunleavy - Gasol - Noah - Rose: +1.9

That's right, worst in the league among top team units.

[League Circles]

I don't agree that it would help the defense. MDJ is arguably as good on D as Kirk, as is Rose frankly.

I don't think MDJ is as good on D, but that's beside the point really. MDJ can't guard PGs. And we have a very particular problem in our D, we our getting carved up on the pick and roll and pick and pop.

While Derrick *when healthy* is as good (even better man to man) as Kirk at guarding elite PGs like Russ or Wall, against your average nightly PG that uses screens, Rose is nowhere close to Kirk in fighting through them.

It's true that rose isn't good at getting through screens like kirk. But there's more to it than just that. For example, kirk fouls like a **** idiot and has for a decade - twice as frequently as rose.
[quote ]

If teams put a guard on MDJ, he'll light them up shooting over them,

This sounds like a myth to me. MDJ is not a 1v1 talent, whenever he has big games its more because the defense loses track of him off ball and he gets a bunch of open shots off screens, or in transition. I can't even remember him just pulling up in the face of some shorter defender.

I also don't really believe this narrative that Butler going back to SG is going to make him a monster again. He has admitted he has lots of things bothering him right now, and frankly he just looks tired.
[/quote ]
I said nothing about MDJ being a one on one guy or jimmy being a monster at sg. Height helps you get shots off over guys, consistently. While dunleavy may not pull up, the many inches he has over kirk means both he and butler can get off more shots than if it's kirk and butler.

[quote ]

Basically, Jimmy should defend the best perimeter scorer. If it's a PG, Rose can guard the 2.

Jimmy can guard a PG for 5 minutes here or there, I don't really think he can pick up a Tony Parker or Teague for 20 or 25 minutes a game without utterly running out of gas.

Moreover, if Jimmy is guarding the PG, who is guarding the better offensive wing that night. Rose or Dunleavy? Not good. The only reason people think Duns is good on defense, is he guards a cake assignment every night thanks to Butler. He's decidedly average.[/quote]

Why on earth couldn't jimmy defend old man parker for the whole game? If he can't, he's no max player.

It comes down to another Thibbs problem which is that both Snell and Moore should be playing more. Not a lot, but more. Then of course we'll see what we have with Doug soon.

If the problem is mostly defense - and it is - the answer is to play the crap defenders less and the good defenders more. The crap defenders are Pau and Brooks. Both moore and snell to me are good defenders. Better than Kirk IMO. Kirk is still very good at getting through screens but ultimately shot challenging is more important and he isn't food at that.

[League Circles]

Here is where our usual staring lineup ranks vs other top teams. The one that people love so much in thinking Dunleavy is the solution to all this team's problems.

Plus/Minus Per Game

GSW: Barnes - Bogut - Curry - Green- Thompson: +7.0
LAC: Barnes - Griffin - Jordan - Paul - Redick: +6.3
POR: Aldridge - Batum - Lillard - Lopez - Matthews: +4.1
OKC: Adams - Durant - Ibaka - Roberson - Westbrook: +3.3
HOU:Ariza - Beverley - Harden - Howard - Motiejunas: +3.7
ATL: Carroll - Horford - Korver - Millsap - Teague: +3.2
MEM: Allen - Conley - Gasol - Lee - Randolph: +2.5
SAS: Diaw - Duncan - Green - Leonard - Parker: +2.2
CHI: Butler - Dunleavy - Gasol - Noah - Rose: +1.9

That's right, worst in the league among top team units.

Pretty much the majority of posters I think believe that not starting both Pau and Noah together is just as important as dunleavy. Then of course rose playing better is another huge one. Fortunately that seems to be heading in the right direction.

[Mech Engineer]

No...not right now. Hinrich is not enough of a threat at the 3 pt line to provide spacing or the length to make up for his lack of speed. MDJ has the length to disrupt shots and he is a better threat on offense. Hinrich's ball handling is unnecessary right now when you have Pau, Derrick and Jimmy on the court.

Derrick will hit the screens come playoff time. Right now, it is a process. Jimmy needs to become elite again and he was getting there as a SG and there is no need to disrupt that process either.

Hinrich needs to be someone who can go @100% full speed using veteran savvy for 15 minutes

[Rerisen]

Height helps you get shots off over guys, consistently.

Have you looked at MDJ's volume or FGA? The guy is extremely low volume. If his height is helping manage the little he already does, god help him if he was shorter. Basically height or no height, Mike has difficulty finding shots.

Anyways, I'm not suggesting a minutes reduction for Mike, just a change in role and rotation.

If the problem is mostly defense - and it is - the answer is to play the crap defenders less and the good defenders more. The crap defenders are Pau and Brooks.

Yes playing the crap defenders less would help the defense. I agree. The problem is those are 2 of our best offensive players, and then the offense is hurt. To me the solution is obviously more 2 way talent, that would require a trade. So we don't have to keep running this complex gauntlet of subs and matchups to be great.

But in lieu of a trade, if all we have to work with is improving chemistry and balance via rotations, more creative thinking might be required. What we are doing now isn't working.

[Rerisen]

Rose - Rose
Bogans - Hinrich
Deng - Butler
Boozer - Gasol
Noah - Noah

Hey this kind of setup won 62 games. Maybe Rose and Noah aren't what they were in 2011, but Gasol and Butler should be equally as better than Boozer and Deng to make up for it, while we wait on health from the first 2.

"But Re, didn't you hate Bogans starting in 2011?"

I hated it because with a 100% Noah and Rose we really didn't need the extra defense like we do now. That team could have gotten by with Korver starting, right now we need defense more than offense.

[Mech Engineer]

Height helps you get shots off over guys, consistently.

Have you looked at MDJ's volume or FGA? The guy is extremely low volume. If his height is helping manage the little he already does, god help him if he was shorter. Basically height or no height, Mike has difficulty finding shots.

Anyways, I'm not suggesting a minutes reduction for Mike, just a change in role and rotation.

If the problem is mostly defense - and it is - the answer is to play the crap defenders less and the good defenders more. The crap defenders are Pau and Brooks.

Yes playing the crap defenders less would help the defense. I agree. The problem is those are 2 of our best offensive players, and then the offense is hurt. To me the solution is obviously more 2 way talent, that would require a trade. So we don't have to keep running this complex gauntlet of subs and matchups to be great.

But in lieu of a trade, if all we have to work with is improving chemistry and balance via rotations, more creating thinking might be required. What we are doing now isn't working.

Your judgment on MDJ's volume or lack there off is clouding your evaluation of his game or the need or his fit. If Jimmy like before is getting into lanes and hitting his shots, there is obviously less volume for MDJ.

Thibs has work to do regarding Gasol but please don't involve Hinrich in the solution. Let everyone play their designated role first.

A better solution is to win some games with offense and some games with Noah/Taj.

BTW, have heard wings in high altitude cannot fit with wings on the ground in the middle of winter

[DanTown8587]

Rose - Rose
Bogans - Hinrich
Deng - Butler
Boozer - Gasol
Noah - Noah

Hey this kind of setup won 62 games. Maybe Rose and Noah aren't what they were in 2011, but Gasol and Butler should be equally as better than Boozer and Deng to make up for it, while we wait on health from the first 2.

"But Re, didn't you hate Bogans starting in 2011?"

I hated it because with a 100% Noah and Rose we really didn't need the extra defense like we do now. That team could have gotten by with Korver starting, right now we need defense more than offense.

That group's +/- was less than the Rose - Butler - Dunleavy - Noah - Gasol you want to break up so to say that group "won 62 games" is disingenuous because that team won 62 games based on the fact that their bench had five legit rotation quality players (Waston, Brewer, Korver, Asik, Gibson) and that it's a lot easier to win regular season games when you have a choice of 8 NBA level players on it plus a MVP.

[kingkirk]

I don’t like the idea in general, but if it were to be implemented, I have a tough time believing that Thibodeau would only limit Hinrich to 15-20 minutes, and not the usual 25-30 minutes we’ve come to expect from him when he relies on Hinrich.

I always find it amusing that people take it out on Kirk, as if he is the one forcing Thibodeau to play him extended minutes.

Show why his minutes would be limited. I can’t see it.

[Fastbrk4brkfast]

There are a couple guys on the Bulls who have the potential to push MDJ to the bench. Hinrich is not one of them.

[Rerisen]

their bench had five legit rotation quality players (Waston, Brewer, Korver, Asik, Gibson)

Wouldn't Dunleavy make our bench stronger? We'd still have 4 quality bench players: Brooks, Dunleavy, Gibson, Mirotic.

And Thibs has said he only wants to go 8-9 deep this year anyway.

Of course we don't have MVP Derrick, but that's not really something we can do anything about at the moment.

[BeatDaCavs420]

LMAO

[League Circles]

Height helps you get shots off over guys, consistently.

Have you looked at MDJ's volume or FGA? The guy is extremely low volume. If his height is helping manage the little he already does, god help him if he was shorter. Basically height or no height, Mike has difficulty finding shots.

Anyways, I'm not suggesting a minutes reduction for Mike, just a change in role and rotation.

If the problem is mostly defense - and it is - the answer is to play the crap defenders less and the good defenders more. The crap defenders are Pau and Brooks.

Yes playing the crap defenders less would help the defense. I agree. The problem is those are 2 of our best offensive players, and then the offense is hurt. To me the solution is obviously more 2 way talent, that would require a trade. So we don't have to keep running this complex gauntlet of subs and matchups to be great.

But in lieu of a trade, if all we have to work with is improving chemistry and balance via rotations, more creative thinking might be required. What we are doing now isn't working.

MDJ has higher volume than Kirk does. Of course height helps on D, that's why generally speaking a guy will defend best guarding the smallest position he is quick enough to.

And yes we need to play more two way talent, I've always been for that. That's why we need to play Moore, Rose and Taj more minutes.

[Wont PerDont]

I said nothing about MDJ being a one on one guy or jimmy being a monster at sg. Height helps you get shots off over guys, consistently. While dunleavy may not pull up, the many inches he has over kirk means both he and butler can get off more shots than if it's kirk and butler.

While I agree that height helps you get shots off, you have to use it for it to be effective and MDJ does this on a very limited basis. He rarely shoots "over" guys. He shoots when he has enough lateral space on a guy that is closing out on him, which has little if anything to do with how tall he is (vertical space).

This is similar to the argument that somehow MDJ being out of the lineup is what has effected Jimmy's numbers because somehow Jimmy is now drawing the bigger defender. While I might agree that MDJs absence has effected Jimmy's numbers, I whole-heartedly disagree with the part about it being because Jimmy is drawing the bigger defender. I would contend that it has more to do with the fact that there is a lack of spacing brought about by MDJs absence. There simply aren't as many driving lanes as teams can pack the paint better vs. Rose/Jimmy and not have to worry as much about MDJ making them pay from behind the arc.

Teams currently do and always have put their best wing defender on Jimmy regardless of whether MDJ is playing/not playing, shooting well/poorly, having a career night/0-20 from the field! The reason for this is a direct result of what we are talking about here...MDJ does very little to anything to make opposing teams pay for guarding him with the lesser of their 2 starting wing defenders. As a general rule, he doesn't take said defender off the dribble. He doesn't shoot over them to any more of a noticeable degree. He doesn't drag them into the post and make them pay for the 6 inches they are giving up in the cross-match. Mike Dunleavy is a role player on offense and that role is to shoot and make open shots/space the floor with that ability. He is pretty good at that role. But, he is not a guy that is going to exploit matchups offensively.

So, the idea that Jimmy is struggling due to the fact that MDJ is not in there and now Jimmy is "having to play too much SF" or "Jimmy is now being guarded by the bigger wing defender" is completely overblown. If MDJ was doing all of the things people who argue about "Jimmy playing SF/drawing the bigger defender" claim he was, he wouldn't be plugged into every trade thread imaginable to find the wing to save our season.

[Wont PerDont]

Double post

[EastBayFJ]

Why might we consider this?

1. To help fix the defense: Put Hinrich on the better offensive player of the two guards. If its the PG, he guards the point and provides excellent PnR defense via fighting through screens his specialty. This helps protect Gasol's slow feet.

If the SG is the better player, Kirk guards him and we leave Rose on the PG.

2. To bolster the wing depth. Dunleavy now becomes your backup wing - much like Korver in 2011. Brooks is the regular backup PG. Seems to make more rotational sense than what we have now.

3. Hinrich's minutes don't have to go up. It would be more a Bogans role type deal. Just to set the tone defensively.

4. Kirk would have to hit the open three reliably. Hopefully with Rose, Butler and Gasol on floor, he would take a lot less stupid 2s, and his TS% would go up.

5. Hinrich has the 2nd best +/- on the team, put it to the test.

Sort of a desperation idea, but this team need some kind of kick in the pants.

I was thinking very similarly this morning

Truth is I was looking for excuse to say that Hinrich should be "boganed"

However ...the reality is Pau is not going anywhere and we simply need better ball pressure out on the perimeter