Maybe Thibs is Right

[poolshark52]

I know that this will be heretical to many, but I think it is at least valid enough to discuss. Maybe Thibs is right about the minutes stuff and the need to practice hard, etc. Maybe Jen Swanson, and her limits on minutes (and even more so the get out of practice free cards) are really hurting the team. I know we want to preserve for the playoffs, but doesn't do much good if you don't win enough in the regular season to get a decent seed. I think a big part of the problem is the practices. Without everyone going hard in practice, its hard to replicate it in the games. If you don't practice defense hard, you probably won't play hard. I think more than anything, it is limitations on the players in practices that is getting to Thibs more than minutes limits in games. I know this post will get trashed, but I do think its something to consider. And yes, I know Noah is injured, but if it is bone on bone like Cowley claims, then it isn't going to get better, and he either has to grit it out or not. Rose has to practice hard. Everyone has to.

[Mech Engineer]

You are kind of right if that's the case. And, right now Thibs has the upper hand to drill them in practice because of the losing. It is all about getting to the right balance from both sides. Some of this is grey matter and only results can change an opinion sometimes.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Please kind sir, which cake would you like to have, the "please let Derrick be healthy by playoffs" brownie or the "let's limit minute restrictions" tiramisu.

[musiqsoulchild]

I know that this will be heretical to many, but I think it is at least valid enough to discuss. Maybe Thibs is right about the minutes stuff and the need to practice hard, etc. Maybe Jen Swanson, and her limits on minutes (and even more so the get out of practice free cards) are really hurting the team. I know we want to preserve for the playoffs, but doesn't do much good if you don't win enough in the regular season to get a decent seed. I think a big part of the problem is the practices. Without everyone going hard in practice, its hard to replicate it in the games. If you don't practice defense hard, you probably won't play hard. I think more than anything, it is limitations on the players in practices that is getting to Thibs more than minutes limits in games. I know this post will get trashed, but I do think its something to consider. And yes, I know Noah is injured, but if it is bone on bone like Cowley claims, then it isn't going to get better, and he either has to grit it out or not. Rose has to practice hard. Everyone has to.

I jokingly said a few months ago that this team will soon have a Ron Swanson (Thibs) Vs. Jen Swanson moment.

Its not funny anymore.

I am certain that the conditioning/physio team is messing with repetitions, practice and minutes in ways that make us worse on court. And I dont think they are the problem as well.

The problem is managing all of the roster turnover we had AND the entirely new Jen Swanson role. If we had our roster of a year ago, where everyone knew everyone else and could adjust to new practice procedures, it may not have been as large an issue.

But adding big minute players and having to learn their tendencies, strengths and weaknesses PLUS not getting in enough reps because of minutes management is hurting the team badly.

[dice]

But adding big minute players and having to learn their tendencies, strengths and weaknesses PLUS not getting in enough reps because of minutes management is hurting the team badly.

doesn't explain why everything has fallen apart in recent weeks, though

[poolshark52]

Please kind sir, which cake would you like to have, the "please let Derrick be healthy by playoffs" brownie or the "let's limit minute restrictions" tiramisu.

I'd like the Derrick plays star player minutes version. You know, like 36 minutes a game like other star players do. If he can't, then I guess he simply isn't a star anymore. He's been coddled for quite a while now. We are halfway through the season. It is time for him to step it up and play hard all the time. And if he can't do that and be healthy in the playoffs, we are sunk anyhow. A healthy Rose like we currently see playing isn't getting us anywhere.

[musiqsoulchild]

But adding big minute players and having to learn their tendencies, strengths and weaknesses PLUS not getting in enough reps because of minutes management is hurting the team badly.

doesn't explain why everything has fallen apart in recent weeks, though

It does in my opinion.

Talent has a shorter shelf-life than Talent + Hard work.

I am not just being cliched either, dice.

[dice]

But adding big minute players and having to learn their tendencies, strengths and weaknesses PLUS not getting in enough reps because of minutes management is hurting the team badly.

doesn't explain why everything has fallen apart in recent weeks, though

It does in my opinion.

Talent has a shorter shelf-life than Talent + Hard work.

I am not just being cliched either, dice.

but weren't the lack of reps and minutes management present from the start of the season?

[JordansBulls]

But adding big minute players and having to learn their tendencies, strengths and weaknesses PLUS not getting in enough reps because of minutes management is hurting the team badly.

doesn't explain why everything has fallen apart in recent weeks, though

After the Houston win the bottom fell out

[CousinOfDeath]

Thibs is definitely right

His track record speaks for itself. The players currently spurning him doesn't take away what he's done with dog **** talent the last couple of years.

[musiqsoulchild]

doesn't explain why everything has fallen apart in recent weeks, though

It does in my opinion.

Talent has a shorter shelf-life than Talent + Hard work.

I am not just being cliched either, dice.

but weren't the lack of reps and minutes management present from the start of the season?

Agree completely. But then these guys are former MVP's (Euro and US), DPOY's, Taj's, Jimmy's et al. It takes much longer for the role of reduced reps to overtake the consolidated talent that the group has.

Even in the games we were winning, it was clear to see that the defense was dog poop.

I think we are now at a junction where we have to make some decisions. One way or the other. Either reps go up, or players play more minutes, or practices become more intensive.

Remember, Thibs sees practices + games as a continuum. He has said several times in past interviews that he keeps tabs of all the minutes (practices and games) and that no one under him is being over-worked.

I beleive him...why should I not?

The difference this year is that, I think the practice minutes AND on-court minutes are being reduced because of the new conditioning team. Unless that dynamic is re-negotiated, we are going to keep losing games we should be winning.

[MC3]

Thibs is definitely right

His track record speaks for itself. The players currently spurning him doesn't take away what he's done with dog **** talent the last couple of years.

track record speak for s*it when your players turn on you and tune out. I didnt see there was problem with track record zero-zero getting job for Kerr and Buldenhozer currently leading two best teams in NBA.

[coldfish]

Quite frankly, both sides are right. You can't just turn it on in the playoffs. Teams that have been together for years in the same system and have won have trouble doing it. A group like this that is only moderately experienced together doesn't stand a chance of pulling it off.

That said, it doesn't matter how hard you work to prepare for the postseason if you are injured for it.

There is a balancing act to be played. In the past, the team went too far with trying hard in the regular season to get the execution right. Now they have gone too far with the "take it easy, its just the regular season" route . . .

or maybe they haven't. Maybe the team can choose to start trying after the all star break and that will give them enough time to smooth out the execution issues.

[ATRAIN53]

Guy has coached an MVP, a DPOY and he's turning Butler into a 1st team NBA Defender and possibly getting that kid a MAX deal.

He is right - he's trying to teach this team that there is a difference between being the ATL Hawks of yesteryear - and the ATL hawks of today.

Budenholzer has those guys playing consistently every night and it's been credited to defense. Good defense int he NBA is a fine line - like 2-4 points per game seperating the playoff teams. That could be just one bucket, one stop, one play that determines the winner. Thibs knows this and wants that effort all game because stopping one basket can make the difference.

Detroit coach Stan Van Gundy said Atlanta's defense "was really good ... a big part of it."

"I couldn't find anything for us to run that was consistently getting us shots," Van Gundy said. "So it was frustrating on my part, too, not just with our players, with myself. We just couldn't get it going offensively. But I give their defense a lot of credit."

Greg Monroe led Detroit with 16 points and 20 rebounds. Andre Drummond added 13 points and 18 rebounds, but made only 3 of 12 free throws.

"They're just active," said Monroe of the Hawks' defense. "Obviously they're a good defensive team."

[WIN]

Thibs is definitely right

His track record speaks for itself. The players currently spurning him doesn't take away what he's done with dog **** talent the last couple of years.

track record speak for s*it when your players turn on you and tune out. I didnt see there was problem with track record zero-zero getting job for Kerr and Buldenhozer currently leading two best teams in NBA.

That's the whole argument. Seeing his track record, these players have less of a reason to tune him out. His way works, it's proven, I just feel like these players have entitlement issues honestly, they're not as hungry as they once were. Hopefully it's nothing, and things turn around once we're fully healthy and start building better chemistry.

[MC3]

Thibs is definitely right

His track record speaks for itself. The players currently spurning him doesn't take away what he's done with dog **** talent the last couple of years.

track record speak for s*it when your players turn on you and tune out. I didnt see there was problem with track record zero-zero getting job for Kerr and Buldenhozer currently leading two best teams in NBA.

That's the whole argument. Seeing his track record, these players have less of a reason to tune him out. His way works, it's proven, I just feel like these players have entitlement issues honestly, they're not as hungry as they once were. Hopefully it's nothing, and things turn around once we're fully healthy and start building better chemistry.

I think players realized full hard-work mode doesnt work. Until point almost kill yourself from it, get tired into playoff and possibility get injured. At least core realized. This is their 4th year together, they win nothing over those 4 years. Yes injuries happened, our best player was 2 years out, BUT we didnt make any progress, if anything our best player last year because of that hunger this season took HUGE stepback because of that hunger he played trough injury which made him this season unreckognizable. Their hunger is different now. They are not anymore team who will kill itself every night in regular season (meaningless) . They have nothing more to prove in that department. And this is where GOOD coach would step in and with different method (coaching skills) help this team. Instead making adjustment, creating rotations, resting player, not playing favorites son, not cutting rotation from 10 players into 7, he instead of that make them work even harder on practices. This is not anymore athletic young team who needs prove itself to be contender. Even if they want to do it, they probably can't on highest lvl. Because their age, injuries made tool on them. You can't coach veteran team like that.

[wolffy]

The danger with Thibs style is that it burns out very quickly. Its always the case with hard a** coaches, they work for a few seasons but eventually guys start to tune them out. I'm not sure if that's happened already but it wouldn't surprise me either.

It wouldn't be hard to convince someone that most coaches wouldn't have had DR in when he hurt his knee. Or that he expects guys to play thru things more than others might. Its possible that they hold some of these against him.

[CousinOfDeath]

Thibs is definitely right

His track record speaks for itself. The players currently spurning him doesn't take away what he's done with dog **** talent the last couple of years.

track record speak for s*it when your players turn on you and tune out. I didnt see there was problem with track record zero-zero getting job for Kerr and Buldenhozer currently leading two best teams in NBA.

And what if in 2 years Kerr and Bud's players start tuning them out

Does that undermine what they accomplished this season?

[amcfad27]

Does a couple extra minutes a game really affect a player all that much? I mean if Jimmy plays 2 minutes less a game, that somehow preserves him more? How much more? What kind of correlation is there to minutes played to productivity during the playoffs? I think the minutes argument is dumb.

But the situation does remind me of the Skiles situation. He had the team overachieving too until he lost the locker room. Same hardcore defensive style...

[AirP.]

Well, Thibs was part of the Boston coaching staff that won a championship, he watched Doc Rivers play his big 3 players...

Pierce(30) - 35.9 minutes
Allen(32) - 35.9 minutes
KG(31) - 32.8 minutes

Paul Pierce at that point had only had 6 seasons of 38+ minutes a night.
Ray Allen only had 6 seasons of 38+ minutes a night.
KG had only had 10 seasons of 38+ minutes a night at that point.

THE BEST PLAYERS PLAY A LOT OF MINUTES... what in the hell has changed to where minutes are now a problem when they hadn't been in the past?